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I sundered a PC's +1 keen spell storing mithirl rapier


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

i sundered a pc's +1 keen spell storing mithril rapier.
now the pc is looking to repair the weapon.

make whole will repair and restore properties as long as the CL of the caster is 2x the CL of the item.

+1 is CL 3rd
keen is CL 10th
spell storing is CL 12th.

so it seems a 10th or 11th level PC casting make whole would only restore the +1 property of the weapon? as they'd need a 20th level caster to return it to +1 keen or 24th level caster to return it to +1 keen spell storing.

can PCs pay to have item repaired? the Magic Item section of the core book says that it costs 1/2 the price of the item to repair it. as an 18,000 item on enchantments alone, repairing the keen and spell storing looks like it would cost half of 16,000gp. or 8000gp. but the magic item section doesn't say who can do it, what feats are necessary, or whether this would just be some kind of spellcasting services payment.

( i'm guessing they couldn't use spellcasting services to hire a 24th level caster, to cast a 2nd level spell, for 10gp = 480gp )

OR
is the CL of the item a +3 weapon, making the CL 9th. requiring an 18th level caster?

OR
is the highest CL needed to even repair the item at all (ie. 24 CL for the spell storing) otherwise fixing the weapon but only leaving it a mithril rapier?

Grand Lodge ****

I'd say you have to repair it all in one go, not use make whole and then pay for the rest. Not sure how the CLs stack, though, but I'd lean towards paying half the cost and handwaving who actually did it. Not a PC, since there is no crafting, so it doesn't really matter who does it.

Qadira **

3 people marked this as a favorite.

The first question is: Did you do enough damage to destroy it (more than total hp) or just to give it the broken condition (between 1/2 and 1 hp left)? Remember that the +1 enhancement bonus gives +2 hardness and +10 HP. The item has a CL of the highest enchantment on it (in this case 12),

PRD wrote:
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

so that leaves us with:

If it's broken, he needs a whole bunch of CL12 mending spells cost. 60 gp each and they restore 1d4 HP each.

If it's destroyed, he first needs a make whole at CL24. I've never seen a definitive answer on whether or not you can even get such a CL in PFS. It's a big debate precisely because of how devastating sunder can be. Assuming it's allowed, you need one casting of make whole for 480 gp, this will give it 1D4 HP and restore the magic properties, then follow up with mending until full. You can't have a craftsman repair it, they can't restore magic properties to destroyed items, that requires make whole.

Second question: What scenario was this? I NEVER want to play it.

*

Belafon wrote:


If it's destroyed, he first needs a make whole at CL24. I've never seen a definitive answer on whether or not you can even get such a CL in PFS.

Can you get to that CL period? That's 4 extra CL's on top of being a lvl 20 caster.

Grand Lodge *

How was the thing made in the first place then? If its a GM added item to the campaign then the GM can handwave and allow the repair to be done piecemeal by lower level casters at the respective CLs needed for each property

*

Lab_Rat wrote:
Belafon wrote:


If it's destroyed, he first needs a make whole at CL24. I've never seen a definitive answer on whether or not you can even get such a CL in PFS.
Can you get to that CL period? That's 4 extra CL's on top of being a lvl 20 caster.

Lots of orange ioun stones.

Also it needs CL 18 for being a +3 equivalent weapon, since if it is treated as a +3 weapon for pricing and creation, it should be treated the same way for repair.

Qadira **

Lab_Rat wrote:
Belafon wrote:


If it's destroyed, he first needs a make whole at CL24. I've never seen a definitive answer on whether or not you can even get such a CL in PFS.
Can you get to that CL period? That's 4 extra CL's on top of being a lvl 20 caster.

Ignoring "tricks" (feats, items, etc.) that add to your CL for the moment, Pathfinder deliberately leaves open the possibility of being a caster of above level 20. There are no rules for such at the moment but neither is there an absolute cap. For reference see mass cure light wounds which heals 1d8+ CL (max +25). Or mass cure critical (max +40).

So while there's currently nothing in the books to let you make a character with that CL (certainly not in PFS), the Pathfinder system allows for such a CL. As I mentioned above, it probably isn't available in PFS but that's been debated a lot.

Personally I'd just like to see a level 4 or 5 spell with a moderately expensive material component that acted like make whole with no CL restrictions. That would solve a bunch of problems and make sunder a "fair" challenge in PFS.

Qadira **

Helaman wrote:
How was the thing made in the first place then? If its a GM added item to the campaign then the GM can handwave and allow the repair to be done piecemeal by lower level casters at the respective CLs needed for each property

As this is in the PFS boards, I'm assuming it was created following PFS rules. Hence, no handwaving allowed.

Qadira **

Saint Caleth wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Belafon wrote:


If it's destroyed, he first needs a make whole at CL24. I've never seen a definitive answer on whether or not you can even get such a CL in PFS.
Can you get to that CL period? That's 4 extra CL's on top of being a lvl 20 caster.

Lots of orange ioun stones.

Also it needs CL 18 for being a +3 equivalent weapon, since if it is treated as a +3 weapon for pricing and creation, it should be treated the same way for repair.

Negative. See above for the PRD quote in how to determine the caster level of a magic weapon. There is a big difference between having a +3 enhancement bonus and being treated as a +3 weapon for purposes of pricing.

*

As long as we have access to the appropriate CL Then its just simple math as Belafon has shown. As a Gm I would just right it down on the chronicle as player payed X gold for spellcasting services (Make Whole, Mending)and you have a fully repaired item. Of note, since the spellcasting is so cheap you can have this done anywhere, no population size restrictions . Apparently all villages and side of the road wizard shacks have a basket of ioun stones to bump their CL up to ridiculous heights.

Shadow Lodge ***

Except that spell casting services can only be bought at minimum caster level...

*

I don't see that anywhere in the Guide. Can you provide a quote? The only reference I see to minimum caster level is if you purchase the spell with prestige.

****

Indeed, there is no listed limitation so long as you are paying in gold. This was very important when I ran a scenario with a disease that a minimum caster level remove disease could not possibly cure.

Shadow Lodge ***

Hmm, maybe I was playing this wrong, theFAQ says as written in the book.

The book doesn't really say anything useful on the subject.

I assumed that spell casting worked the same way as potions or scrolls but I seem to have been mistaken. Amusingly enough if they had bothered to include a chart, such as with potions or scrolls, higher caster level options would not be available.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

RAW:
Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged (or even a destroyed) magic item—if the caster is high enough level.

Based upon this, I believe that the correct answer is that if a proper level caster can be found, the spell can be used. Otherwise, I think that the play must pay the half of the item creation cost. (I believe that this is different than half of the purchase price.)

Price of the item is 19,000 GP - 18,000 GP (+1 enhancement, keen and spell storing) + 1,000 GP (for mithral assuming that weight is calculated by the base item)

In the example given by the original poster, I believe that it would require a CL 24 caster to use make whole (and the item would still have the broken condition). It would then take additional uses of mending or make whole to fully repair the item. If that route was not available it sounds like it would cost 4,750 GP in material components plus any fee to have a weapon smith fix the item. (It may be in PFS that the total fee is double the cost like any other magic item purchase.)

As a side note, the way I figure it, the weapon has 40 HP and Hardness 17. The damage dealt to sunder this weapon and destroy it would need to be 57 hp or more in a single blow or some special trick or equipment like an adamantine weapon.

Qadira **

Hiring a craftsman is not an option in this case. Here's the relevant text:

PRD wrote:
...Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it...

Magic items require make whole.

P.S. Grammar Nazi says "that should actually read 'A non-magical item'."

Andoran ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Anoka

Saint Caleth wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Belafon wrote:


If it's destroyed, he first needs a make whole at CL24. I've never seen a definitive answer on whether or not you can even get such a CL in PFS.
Can you get to that CL period? That's 4 extra CL's on top of being a lvl 20 caster.

Lots of orange ioun stones.

Also it needs CL 18 for being a +3 equivalent weapon, since if it is treated as a +3 weapon for pricing and creation, it should be treated the same way for repair.

This is incorrect. You only multiple the enhancement bonus by 3, if it has no special abilities. So if it was a +3 Sword, it would be CL 9 (3*3), needing CL 18 to cast Make Whole (CL9*2).

If it has a special ability, you use the highest CL, whichever special ability is highest, or the enhancement bonus.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Belafon wrote:


Second question: What scenario was this? I NEVER want to play it.

destroyed.

mithril has a hardness of 15. +2 for the +1 enhancement gave it a hardness 17. a rapier has 5hp base as a one handed blade, +10 for the +1 enhancement bonus.

giving it a hardness 17, with 15 hp.

Module info:

Spoiler:

Ruby Phoenix Tournament is the module. there's a baddie with what is by the stats given a +2/+2 large orc double axe, and improved sunder feat.
given the magus was doing nasty things to the badguy through the blade, it lashed out at the blade.

the first hit was for ~30 damage. the player tried to drop the weapon as an immediate action after that, which i'd never heard of . i know its free to drop a weapon, but i believe its free on your turn, so proceeded to take the second swing and did another 30 damage with power attack. which brought the item's hp below zero.

baddie then proceeded to continue taking its attacks on the now unarmed magus.

Edit: added spoiler around module info

Silver Crusade *** Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Helsinki

Please put the spoilers in spoiler tags. Not all of us want to know.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PRD wrote:

Repairing Magic Items

Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged or even a destroyed) magic items—if the caster is high enough level.

Note that there are 2 ways to repair a destroyed magic item:

1) "reforging" it, paying half of the original crafting cost and spending half of the original crafting time.

2) a caster with a CL of twice that of the item using make whole. This system has no additional cost beside the casting cost.

System 1 was the only way to repair a magic item in 3.x. In the old version you needed a crafter capable to create the item to repair it. The CRB text has removed that line.

* I would limit the availability of people capable to repair an item to the locations where you can buy an item with those characteristics. *

PRD wrote:
n addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.

* I would read this as a limit to the spellcaster levels too: in a small town (or larger settlement) you can find a 1st level caster, in a large town a 3rd level caster, in a small city a 5-7 level caster, a large city for 9-11 level casters, and a metropolis for 13-15 level casters. *

Note: the item between * * are personal opinions.

**

A Magician (Bard archetype) can add +1 CL per 5 levels to allies through Dweomercraft.

So - without going epic - a 20th level wizard, with an orange ioun stone and gifted adept: make whole, accompanied by a 20th level Bard(Magician) using Dweomercraft is casting Make Whole at CL 26.

Do this in a plane (hey, the 20th level caster can create greater demiplane, right?) with the High Magic trait, and it's CL 28.

So... there IS some wiggle room there! Not sure how to PRICE it, but it's there ;)

** Venture-Lieutenant, Croatia—Zagreb

I think I read that you don't stack caster levels, only apply the highest CL. In this case, it's CL 12th from Spell Storing.

**

This whole discussion, by the way, is why ALL my characters invest in the 1000gp Fortifying Stone from the PS Field Guide: +5 hardness, +5 break DC, +20 hit points.

The mithril rapier in question, for a mere 1000gp, could have had hardness 22 and 35 it points, nearly doubling it's durability ;)

(Caster-types should consider adding these to their high-cost, high-CL staves and metamagic rods as well...)

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:
Belafon wrote:


Second question: What scenario was this? I NEVER want to play it.

destroyed.

mithril has a hardness of 15. +2 for the +1 enhancement gave it a hardness 17. a rapier has 5hp base as a one handed blade, +10 for the +1 enhancement bonus.

giving it a hardness 17, with 15 hp.

Ruby Phoenix Tournament is the module. there's a baddie with what is by the stats given a +2/+2 large orc double axe, and improved sunder feat.
given the magus was doing nasty things to the badguy through the blade, it lashed out at the blade. the first hit was for ~30 damage. the player tried to drop the weapon as an immediate action after that, which i'd never heard of . i know its free to drop a weapon, but i believe its free on your turn, so proceeded to take the second swing and did another 30 damage with power attack. which brought the item's hp below zero.

baddie then proceeded to continue taking its attacks on the now unarmed magus.

He is a magus, so probably he was using his arcane pool to enhance his rapier. You have factored that?

There is some discussion about that on the forum, but most people think that even temporary enhancement should increase a item hardness and hp.
I am a bit dubious about the hp part, but hardness seem a given, so if he was increasing his rapier plus it had some extra point of hardness.

** Venture-Lieutenant, Croatia—Zagreb

Also one more point.

So far (at least according to my knowledge), Sunder is a specific standard action. So your NPC couldn't full attack and sunder the weapon but only use 1 single standard action attack. But what's done is done.

Andoran ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Anoka

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Seraphimpunk wrote:
Belafon wrote:


Second question: What scenario was this? I NEVER want to play it.

destroyed.

mithril has a hardness of 15. +2 for the +1 enhancement gave it a hardness 17. a rapier has 5hp base as a one handed blade, +10 for the +1 enhancement bonus.

giving it a hardness 17, with 15 hp.

Ruby Phoenix Tournament is the module. there's a baddie with what is by the stats given a +2/+2 large orc double axe, and improved sunder feat.
given the magus was doing nasty things to the badguy through the blade, it lashed out at the blade. the first hit was for ~30 damage. the player tried to drop the weapon as an immediate action after that, which i'd never heard of . i know its free to drop a weapon, but i believe its free on your turn, so proceeded to take the second swing and did another 30 damage with power attack. which brought the item's hp below zero.

baddie then proceeded to continue taking its attacks on the now unarmed magus.

Sunder is considered an Attack Action and can take the place of a melee attack. This means you can Sunder as an AoO. However, the term "Attack Action" is undefined except by clarification on the Vital Strike feat.

You cannot do Sunder with iterative attacks. Attack Action is apparently synonymous with Standard Action.

Therefore the badguy could not have sundered twice and also taken the rest of its iterative attacks in the same round.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Andrew Christian wrote:
Attack Action is apparently synonymous with Standard Action.

Nitpick: not "synonymous with", but rather "a specific kind of". Otherwise you could vital strike every time you spent any standard action. :/

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Sunder states you can attempt it in place of a melee attack in the core book. Trip likewise says you can attempt it as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.
Overrun and grapple state that they are standard actions.

So in a TWF chain of attacks,
I could trip/trip/sunder/sunder/attack/attack , if I were so inclined

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Seraphimpunk wrote:
Trip likewise says you can attempt it as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

Look again: trip makes no mention of the attack action at all. Sunder is the only maneuver to mention it.

But enough of the derail; there's already a thread over in Rules. :)

**

Seraphimpunk wrote:

Sunder states you can attempt it in place of a melee attack in the core book. Trip likewise says you can attempt it as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

Overrun and grapple state that they are standard actions.

So in a TWF chain of attacks,
I could trip/trip/sunder/sunder/attack/attack , if I were so inclined

Indeed; you could mix some disarms in there, too.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Disarms, yes. Like trips. Sunders? Depends on whether you think the inclusion of "as part of an attack action" (which is NOT present in the disarm or trip text) is deliberate or an oversight. But again, there's already a rules thread on this.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

got a link to that discussion? lol. i agree that its a digression, but i'd like to follow it , should it get concluded that Sunder takes a standard action ( in which case, HORRIBLY worded in the core book, since all the other standard action ones say they're standard actions, not hand wave and vaguery of the 'attack action' ) lol.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

It's the 10-page monstrosity at the top of the Rules section of the forums. Enjoy. ;)

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

danke

Shadow Lodge ****

as bad as this is ... I have played with the Idea of a Sunder Monkey so I have studied this in depth

now that said ... keep in mind the campaign standards say

Campaign standards wrote:
If during a scenario you find the +1 frost longsword from the example above and decide to use it until the end of the adventure, but then you get disarmed or it gets sundered, you are still able to buy that item off the Chronicle sheet at the end of the scenario.

unfortunately YMMV but what I take from this is that its broken for the remainder of the scenario ... tho thats without an official stance ... and that is one of only 2 mentions of Sundering in the campaign guide (the other mention is an "in a nutshell" of what was said above)

this would be something interesting to get an official ruling from Campaign staff on ...tho Im not sure what the end result would be

also how high of a CL is the make whole spell listed on the Spellcasting services

as a side note .. I am particularly interested in this thread as I am currently prepping this scenario for my regular group

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Scott Young wrote:
handwaving who actually did it. Not a PC, since there is no crafting, so it doesn't really matter who does it.

This.

Belafon wrote:

The first question is: Did you do enough damage to destroy it (more than total hp) or just to give it the broken condition (between 1/2 and 1 hp left)? Remember that the +1 enhancement bonus gives +2 hardness and +10 HP. The item has a CL of the highest enchantment on it (in this case 12),

PRD wrote:
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
so that leaves us with:

If it's broken, he needs a whole bunch of CL12 mending spells cost. 60 gp each and they restore 1d4 HP each.

If it's destroyed, he first needs a make whole at CL24. I've never seen a definitive answer on whether or not you can even get such a CL in PFS. It's a big debate precisely because of how devastating sunder can be. Assuming it's allowed, you need one casting of make whole for 480 gp, this will give it 1D4 HP and restore the magic properties, then follow up with mending until full. You can't have a craftsman repair it, they can't restore magic properties to destroyed items, that requires make whole.

And this

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a post that was just there to argue points for the sake of arguing, not resolve anything.

Since I've given a ruling on repairing the item, and this thread has devolved into rules questions not specific to PFS, I am locking this thread. If you wish to argue general rules, feel free to head over to the Rules forums to do so.

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