Paizo should turn the Eldritch Scion into an alternate Class

[Kodger]

The Eldritch Scion uses CHA instead of INT. This means that he cannot be combined with any other Magus Archetype, as far as I know.

I think the Eldritch Scion should be an Alternate Class, like the Ninja is.

Does this idea make sense?

[Lemmy]

Eldritch Scion just frustrates me... It could have been a great archetype, but the couple bad things it has are so freaking bad that they ruin it.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Why would being based off CHA rather than INT preclude it being combined with other Magus Archetypes? It might make it more MAD, but I don't particularly see that it would preclude others...

I will agree with Lemmy that it seems quite poorly thought out & unnecessarily 'clunky'. Which is disappointing, as I had been hoping for something in the way of a CHA-based Magus for a while.

[kestral287]

The Ninja can be combined with other Rogue archetypes if you can make one fit, so not sure why it's being mentioned. And honestly, alternate classes on the whole don't make a lot of sense. They're archetypes. Big archtypes, maybe, but archetypes. Call a spade a spade.

Though that said, there are archetypes that work with the Scion. The Staff Magus is one I can name immediately; there are probably more but I'd have to check. The bigger problem with the Scion and stacking archetypes is that it hits three of the hot-button targets for Magus archtypes: Spell Recall, Arcane Pool, and Spells. That said, Spells isn't modified in a way that should affect something like Kapiena Dancer/Eldritch Scion, but I'd have to look back at the archetype rules to see if that works by RAW. The same is true for the Arcane Pool modification. If those do work with other classes... yeah, it's honestly a fairly expansive list of legal archtypes since most of what the Scion truly replaces is not the standard replacement fair.

[Saving Cap'n Crunch]

It could have potential as either a class or an archetype, but I prefered the standard one ever since I realized you didn't need Cha for Arcane Deeds. And that took me all of fifteen seconds, by the way. I love and hate Arcane Deed.

[Marroar Gellantara]

Lemmy wrote:

Eldritch Scion just frustrates me... It could have been a great archetype, but the couple bad things it has are so freaking bad that they ruin it.

I have to agree. With how spellcasting was changed and how they removed knowledge pool and spell recall, they needed to give it crazy super buffs to have it be close to a normal magus.

Instead they further nerfed it...

[Kodger]

I must admit that I would have liked to combine Green Sting Slayer and Eldritch Scion.

[Imbicatus]

Greensting Slayer is awful though. It's only grace is that it allows single class entry to arcane trickster.

[LoneKnave]

And even that's debatable.

Personal Eldritch scion fix:
-switch casting to spontaneous and more spells/day like bard
-switch from INT based to CHA based. Give +2 skill points to compensate.
-all class abilities that rely on INT rely on CHA.
-replace Arcane Pool with with a Bloodline and Bloodrage as the Bloodrager. If you want to use an ability that requires pool points, you can instead spend 2 turns of bloodrage/point. Replace abilities that don't work with spontaneous casting for improvements of bloodline/bloodrage.

-Special clause that allows stacking with other archetypes and explains what ability is traded for what, so Suli Eldritch Scion Elemental Knights are actually a thing.

+BONUS: add an arcana that lets them spellcombat with two handed weapons while in bloodrage, and another one that reduces the time of applied metamagics.

[Domhnual]

The Eldritch Scion does state this:

"Additionally, any magus's class feature or spell from the magus spell list that normally uses a calculation based on Intelligence is instead based on Charisma for an eldritch scion. For example, an eldritch scion with the arcane accuracy magus arcana grants himself an insight bonus on attacks equal to his Charisma bonus, not his Intelligence bonus. This has no effect on the eldritch scion's skills or skill points."

Wouldn't this let you use Cha in place of Int for abilities in Archetypes

[LoneKnave]

Yeah, but it doesn't combine with any archetypes I think.

It changes casting (myrmidarch, Kensai, Kapenia dancer are out), pool (blackblade, greensting, etc.) spell recall (Elemental Knight, Hexcrafter, etc.) and probably some other things I'm missing.

[Domhnual]

Oh okay. I see where you would run into issues then with Archetypes.

[Starbuck_II]

LoneKnave wrote:

Yeah, but it doesn't combine with any archetypes I think.

It changes casting (myrmidarch, Kensai, Kapenia dancer are out), pool (blackblade, greensting, etc.) spell recall (Elemental Knight, Hexcrafter, etc.) and probably some other things I'm missing.

Looking at this site: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus

It works with spellblade and Fiend flayer.

[p-sto]

I have to admit I don't like the concept of alternative classes all that much. They feel like something that Paizo creates then forget about. I mean a rogue gets a fair number of archetypes to choose from and some of them are quite decent. Remind me again how many can actually be applied to a ninja?

[kestral287]

Starbuck_II wrote:

LoneKnave wrote:

Yeah, but it doesn't combine with any archetypes I think.

It changes casting (myrmidarch, Kensai, Kapenia dancer are out), pool (blackblade, greensting, etc.) spell recall (Elemental Knight, Hexcrafter, etc.) and probably some other things I'm missing.

Looking at this site: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus

It works with spellblade and Fiend flayer.

Also Staff Magus. In a home game, looking at your GM and actually pointing out what changes in spells and why "spells are spontaneous" doesn't even remotely affect "one less spell per day of each level" so you should be able to stack those just fine. Do it again for the Arcane Pool too. Don't think that'd fly in PFS, but hey.

[Serisan]

Myrmidarch and Kensai are out for totally different reasons than spells. Diminished Spellcasting doesn't touch the Spells class feature. Both of them have other abilities that are modified, though, like Knowledge Pool.

[thegreenteagamer]

If Stonelord is only an archetype, I don't see why ES should be an alt class. Stonelord is practically a separate class from Paladin.

[Imbicatus]

Alternate Classes and Archetypes are the same thing. The only difference is that Paizo does all the work for you on the Alternate Classes.

[Errant Mercenary]

Kodger wrote:

The Eldritch Scion uses CHA instead of INT. This means that he cannot be combined with any other Magus Archetype, as far as I know.

I think the Eldritch Scion should be an Alternate Class, like the Ninja is.

Does this idea make sense?

"Additionally, any magus's class feature or spell from the magus spell list that normally uses a calculation based on Intelligence is instead based on Charisma for an eldritch scion. "

Means ANY magus class feature. So combine it with any archetype you want, instead of Int it'll use Charisma.

[Lemmy]

Imbicatus wrote:

Alternate Classes and Archetypes are the same thing. The only difference is that Paizo does all the work for you on the Alternate Classes.

Well... Technically, they are different... It's a pointless distinction, I admit, but an existent one nevertheless... Probably because Rogues aren't allowed to have nice things. so they didn't want to give them swift action Invisibility without overtaxing it.