Flail snail Language


Pathfinder Society

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Sovereign Court * Venture-Lieutenant, Iceland—Reykjavik

Is the flail snail language legal option?

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Can you quote or link to the rules you're speaking of?

Sovereign Court * Venture-Lieutenant, Iceland—Reykjavik

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/flailSnail.html

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Brynjar Aron Jónsson wrote:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/flailSnail.html

Fixed your link for you =)

I'm uncertain what your question is, though.

Sovereign Court * Venture-Lieutenant, Iceland—Reykjavik

A player asked this to and we all were wondering, cause the idea of the party using this to communicate is hilarious. Imagine the party jiggling around cause it is a sign language.

Sovereign Court * Venture-Lieutenant, Iceland—Reykjavik

the Question is: is the language "Flail snail", from the flail snail creature in link legal to take as pc?

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Oh! "Sign Language". Got it.

That's a tough one. I know I've encountered players with exotic racial languages before (and a couple of my nature-themed PCs know "Treant").

But, I suppose, since it's not listed as an option under Additional Resources it's not legal.

(I wonder if I should correct my characters, too...)

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So, the more general question is:

Can PCs put a rank into Linguistics to learn a language from one of the Bestiaries, such as "Treant" or "Sign Language"?

Sovereign Court * Venture-Lieutenant, Iceland—Reykjavik

the language iam asking is named Flail snail. not just sign language.

The Exchange ***

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How about Sasquatch?

Shadow Lodge ****

If it's not listed in the Additional Resources, it's by definition not legal.

I think this is something that should be addressed, though. Which monster languages from which bestiaries can be learned with Linguistics?

***** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston

Well, the statement would probably be "No", however it would be nice if a few languages open up. Speaking Treant would be fun.

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

"My mom was a druid, and had all sorts of weird friends. When I was born, one of the local trants named me."

"That's cool, Russell."

****

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nothing in the Bestiaries are legal player options unless unlocked through another legal source. I can't think of a single legal source for the Flail Snail language. In fact, I honestly can't find a legal source for sign language. There are references to it (Vow of Silence for Monks) and there is a special Drow Sign Language, but there is no sign language available in ISWG or the CRB that I can see.

***

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In addition to the PFS-legality factor, and while I'm a huge proponent of more folks being able to properly appreciate flail snail poetry, Flail Snail is not just a sign language - it also has "slime" components, which are unlikely to be easily duplicated without table variation in PFS.
I'm also not sure most PFS characters would have the sufficient # of limbs to replicate the four tentacles of the poetic maestros of the underdark in order to replicate even the "sign" portion of their language.

-TimD

Dark Archive

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That sounds like a challenge to me...

Grand Lodge

Alchemists could acquire sufficient limbs to sign this language.

Sovereign Court ***** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 aka Netopalis

16 people marked this as a favorite.

I now desire to build an alchemist whose goal is to gain enough limbs so that he can finally communicate back with his one true love.

Shadow Lodge ***

You'd probably be allowed to understand it but not "speak" it (at best).

I think there's something else that follows this precedent, but I can't remember what it is.

Scarab Sages ****

Avatar-1 wrote:

You'd probably be allowed to understand it but not "speak" it (at best).

I think there's something else that follows this precedent, but I can't remember what it is.

Animal Companions and languages?

Shadow Lodge ***

Yeah - that might be it. If animals can't speak common but can understand it and react, surely it would work the other way around as well?

***

Avatar-1 wrote:

You'd probably be allowed to understand it but not "speak" it (at best).

I think there's something else that follows this precedent, but I can't remember what it is.

You may be thinking of D'ziriak...

... which I've now discovered from this thread that my shadow caster needs to change out of as it is also not PFS legal.

-TimD

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

I always thought that it might be possible to "speak" flail snail with a jar of alchemical slime. This was one of three options that I was hoping they would legalize as a PFS sign language option.

Hmm

Scarab Sages ***** RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:

Your race and class selection impact what languages you start with. All characters gain Common as a free language. You gain free languages granted by your race, ethnicity (for humans), and class (e.g., Druidic for druids). If you have a high Intelligence modifier, you may select bonus languages from those listed in your race’s entry in the Core Rulebook and the Modern Human Languages list (The Inner Sea World Guide

251). Certain classes grant access to additional bonus languages (e.g., Draconic for wizards). Humans and half-elves with high Intelligence scores may learn all the above languages as bonus languages as well as any other language except Druidic and the languages listed under Ancient Languages on page 251 of The Inner Sea World Guide. All languages except Druidic are available by putting a skill rank in Linguistics (see below). Tian characters receive the languages Tien and Common for free

Aren't Bestiary Languages covered by the bolded sentence above?

Shadow Lodge *****

Russ, it covers all legal languages, but no languages from the bestiaries are in Additional Resources so they aren't legal.

Sovereign Court *****

The way i read it russ is right. the guide does not say all languages from the core. it flat out says all languages. so the way i understand it unless the additional resources directly excludes a language it is legal. It is the only way you can have a legal living monolith so.

Shadow Lodge *****

Languages from other sources are specifically called out in Additional Resources.

*****

Guide to Organized Play does allow for people to learn languages by putting points into linguistics. Additional resources doesn't say that languages aren't allowed. Unless you are saying that you cannot learn Tengu, Tian, or any other language not mentioned in the Core Rulebook, as they are not specifically mentioned in the additional resources. Whether or not I like an idea for a language has no bearing. The campaign organizisers have set out a guide to what is allowed, called The Guide To Organized Play.

Sovereign Court *****

My point is the guide directly states all languages except druidic. it does not state all languages found the core book or all languages mentioned on additional resources. it says all languages.


Russ Brown wrote:
Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:

Your race and class selection impact what languages you start with. All characters gain Common as a free language. You gain free languages granted by your race, ethnicity (for humans), and class (e.g., Druidic for druids). If you have a high Intelligence modifier, you may select bonus languages from those listed in your race’s entry in the Core Rulebook and the Modern Human Languages list (The Inner Sea World Guide

251). Certain classes grant access to additional bonus languages (e.g., Draconic for wizards). Humans and half-elves with high Intelligence scores may learn all the above languages as bonus languages as well as any other language except Druidic and the languages listed under Ancient Languages on page 251 of The Inner Sea World Guide. All languages except Druidic are available by putting a skill rank in Linguistics (see below). Tian characters receive the languages Tien and Common for free
Aren't Bestiary Languages covered by the bolded sentence above?

The question is answered in the quote given, but I've added a bold.

Shadow Lodge *****

Sarvei taeno wrote:
My point is the guide directly states all languages except druidic. it does not state all languages found the core book or all languages mentioned on additional resources. it says all languages.

That doesn't mean you don't have to check Additional Resources, since nothing from other sources is legal unless it's listed as such. By the other logic, Androffan would be legal, but it's specifically called out as being available only through a chronicle sheet. And...

ToshiroKurita wrote:
Guide to Organized Play does allow for people to learn languages by putting points into linguistics. Additional resources doesn't say that languages aren't allowed. Unless you are saying that you cannot learn Tengu, Tian, or any other language not mentioned in the Core Rulebook, as they are not specifically mentioned in the additional resources.

Those languages ARE called out in Additional Resources under the entries for the Inner Sea World Guide and Dragon Empires Gazetteer, and several other sources list languages that are allowed. Nothing is legal unless the additional resources page/document says it is.

ToshiroKurita wrote:
Whether or not I like an idea for a language has no bearing. The campaign organizisers have set out a guide to what is allowed, called The Guide To Organized Play.

The legality languages in the Inner Sea World Guide are specifically called out in the GtOP and in the additional resources.

*****

You still haven't commented on the Living Monolith, a specifically allowed prestige class, requiring Sphinx, a language you claim players cannot learn. Tengu, Kitsune, and some other racial languages for allowed races don't appear to be in the additional resoucres, so are you saying you cannot learn them either?

Shadow Lodge

ToshiroKurita wrote:
You still haven't commented on the Living Monolith, a specifically allowed prestige class, requiring Sphinx, a language you claim players cannot learn. Tengu, Kitsune, and some other racial languages for allowed races don't appear to be in the additional resoucres, so are you saying you cannot learn them either?

Tengu is in dragon empires primer and thus legal.

Kitsune don't even get the Kitsune language if built using dragon empires primer rather then advanced race guide.

Sphinx is a mystery, it is obviously intended to be legal but I cannot find a legal way to take the language without A boon.

Shadow Lodge *****

ToshiroKurita wrote:
You still haven't commented on the Living Monolith, a specifically allowed prestige class, requiring Sphinx, a language you claim players cannot learn. Tengu, Kitsune, and some other racial languages for allowed races don't appear to be in the additional resoucres, so are you saying you cannot learn them either?

Pretty much what Dylos said. Characters get their racial languages automatically, but there isn't really a way for characters to learn languages from some of the obscure races other than being that race.

As for sphinx, no, I don't think there's actually currently a way to learn it, which probably isn't what was intended but it's the way the rules read to me. I think that's easily fixed by putting a note in the class, or clarifying this whole language legality business.

Scarab Sages ***** RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Thanks, Zak. (and others who pointed out the need to check additional resources)

I forgot that the additional resources entries for ISWG and Dragon Empires Primer specifically list those languages as legal. I am pretty sure Sphinx used to be listed as my 13th level Osirion Cleric has known it since he was about 2nd level (2010).

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Would it be unbalancing if all the languages listed in the Bestiaries were opened up for PFS characters?

Clearly, one exception exists. Is there any reason why others can't be added to the list?

Shadow Lodge

Nefreet wrote:

Would it be unbalancing if all the languages listed in the Bestiaries were opened up for PFS characters?

Clearly, one exception exists. Is there any reason why others can't be added to the list?

Probably not, and languages are one of the things most likely to be overlooked during an audit, especially if a character has dozens of them. In most cases these languages wouldn't even come up in a scenario.

There may be issues with a few of the bestiary languages because they are intended to be secret languages (mainly Drow Sign Language/Sakvroth) but such an issue isn't likely to show up (since in order for the language to be in a scenario there would basically have to be drow in the scenario.)

Grand Lodge ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

3 people marked this as a favorite.

We will take a look at this next week as I get ready to update additional resources. Flail snail will likely not be made legal regardless of what direction we choose.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Would it be easier, then, to make the general rule stand that all languages, everywhere, are legal via Linguistics, and then have a small list (such as Drow and Snail) that are not legal?

Edit: yay! Ninja'd by a golden helmet!

Scarab Sages ***** RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Awesome. Thanks for looking at this Mike.

*****

Cool that you are looking into it.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
The newest Additional Resources update for Bestiary 3 wrote:
Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters. All languages found in this book are available for a character to learn with the linguistics skill, except flail snail.

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

That's a nice change. Thanks, Mike & John.

Dark Archive

Flail Snail the only exclusion? Harsh!

Grand Lodge *****

I think most people only read the following

Languages Flail Snail (sign language, slime writing, cannot speak)

What the miss is the more detailed description in the Misfit Monsters Redeemed

Flail Snail language explained:

Though they have no spoken language, f lail snails communicate using two different means, both completely silent. The first, an elaborate sign language of waving tentacles, is primarily used for communicating immediate needs, warnings, and other messages that are quickly picked up and passed through the rout. The second and more in-depth form of communication is a complex chemical writing system encoded within the snail's slime. Every flail snail has its own unique chemical signature that makes its slime trail immediately recognizable to other snails. Within its trail, each snail records a running dialogue of its thoughts, observations, and memories in a complex interaction of scents that can linger on the stone long after the slime has dried to dust. Other snails can read this dense stream of information and edit it with their own trails, creating a vast, interwoven cultural narrative that at once contains the snails' greatest art and the sum of their collective history. Together, the slime trails of two dozen snails weave epic tales worthy of any philosopher-poet.

For players who want to use a silent language -
A) wave your arms, point your arm, finger, roll your eyes
B) buy a piece of chalk - CRB - 1 copper piece - and just use it to silently write

A) allows some rough and urgent messages, b) allows you to communicate as elaborately as you want. I heard about mute oracles using a slate and chalk.

But the whole background of this world becomes meaningless when 1 point in linguistics allows you to perfectly communicate as a snail flail.

Yes - maybe the solution would be to design the vocabulary of the Pathfinder sign language (run, flee, wait, etc) and then allow that language in PFS. But lacking a restricted vocabulary I understand that Paizo doesn't want to let th djinn I out of the flask.

Sczarni ***** ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Victor Zajic wrote:
Flail Snail the only exclusion? Harsh!

And Aboleth. And Drow Sign Language.

**** Venture-Agent, Idaho—Moscow aka Flaming Duck

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Yay! Vegepygmy is officially legal! Finally, my characters need not hide the fact they "speak" the greatest language!

Bestiary page 273, brothers! Grab it!

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Yeah, I know that it is unlikely humanoids could speak Flail Snail. But I think that part of the reason they want to try is that it is one of the few canon sign languages out there.

I have to say vegepygmy is cool, though! It would be great to create a bard or skald with Perform (drum) who used it to communicate in vegepygmy!

Hmm

**

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I'm just glad I can give my polyglot investigator such 'useful' languages as Brethedan and Elder Thing now that I've exhausted the usual choices.

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