With the playtest closing at 2 PM Pacific tomorrow, I figured it might be worthwhile to create a thread where we can sum up our final thoughts on the playtest in general. Super class-specific impressions, observations, or playtest experiences should be limited to their respective threads to help the designers keep things straight, but feel free to talk about the classes as they compare not to each other, but to pre-existing classes as well. And what about tone? Flavor? Ease of play?
I'll likely contribute some of my own thoughts later, but I wanted to start this thread for everyone now, before forgetting.
I think a thread like this should wait for any post playtest summaries like the ones Mark will be posting.
Most of the classes were bland rehashes of existing classes, and many had a lot of balance problems to boot. Some seemed like they were going to get fixed, others not.
Not doing a second round of playtesting is a mistake IMO.
I think a thread like this should wait for any post playtest summaries like the ones Mark will be posting.
Be that as it may, those summaries won't necessarily reflect the classes as we've experienced them in playtests and close readings. I'm of the mind that this thread could be useful in the present moment as well as post-summary.
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My general impression of the Spiritualist in its current state is that it's paying for the sins of the Summoner.
Most of the classes were bland rehashes of existing classes, and many had a lot of balance problems to boot. Some seemed like they were going to get fixed, others not.
Not doing a second round of playtesting is a mistake IMO.
I can't believe it's not Bloodlines?
Yeah the Psychic disappointed hardcore by just feeling like a Sorceror clone. I didn't even know the Spiritualist existed. The Kineticist is kind of cool, but very flawed and I think Amora Games did a better job with that concept in the "Mystic." I don't like the Occultist. The Medium is a very cool concept and I hope its final release is great. The Mesmerist sort of interests me because I've wanted a class capable of doing the stuff it does.
My general impression of the Spiritualist in its current state is that it's paying for the sins of the Summoner.
Not so much as "paying" for them as living in the fallout of the summoner. It seemed scared to amount to much. Though I think they can make it work through it.
I think this book, like the ACG before it, will be primarily judged by the quality of the archetype and feat section.
If they can manage to only have "sweet spot" archetypes as opposed to archetypes significantly better than their originating class (Daring Champion>>>> Swashbuckler it's sad.) or worse than anything (Poor smiting Warpriest archetype and Bolt Ace). Feats that aren't WTF OP like that Cha to saves feat. Feats that aren't a wording mess (What does Pummeling Style even do when you crit?). Feats that aren't useless (Why does anti-dodge and anti-mobility exist?)
So yeah, Paizo don't forget to have the lead developers spend more than a passing glance on the feat/archetype section.
I like 'em all, provided some mechanical head-scratchers get addressed, e.g., occultist abilities that boost spells they don't actually have, and provided that they give the book the editing and attention it deserves. Looking forward to the final release.
+1 Zwordsman. I check amazon every day to see it someone's started pre-orders yet. :P
With the caveat that I didn't have a chance to playtest anything:
I liked the Kineticist, Occultist, and Spiritualist. They need some tweaks sure, but I like them.
Medium is way way too complicated for my tastes, and breaks my brain
Psychic...still seems a bit boring, and feels like the least "finished" class, in that I assume its still missing a bunch of disciplines which would probably make me more excited about the class.
Mesmerist seemed boring to me, but the revisions made to it have made it more interesting and I think usable. So I would probably now put it with the Kineticist, Occultist, and Spiritualist.
I Liked the Kinetics, but more because of the flavor. Think that the Paizo staff will have their work cut out to get this bunched balanced.a second play-test would not be a luxury as things stand now.
My last impression is one of disappointment. Overall I love the flavor of the occult classes. But their execution had problems I couldn't overcome.
Kineticist - didn't read as the list of powers bored me. I'll call that one bad on me.
Medium - I liked the pact binder from Radience House. Compared to that the Paizo medium is clunky at best. Some of the writing is wordy at best and confusing at worst. The occult flavor is really good, as is combining with the Harrow deck. Unfortunately, because of how powers are gained and interact with one another, you have to read and comprehend the entire thing. I did that and my opinion is that this class is designed to not do well at a lot of things. For instance, the séance ability is flavorful and brings the spirit to the attention of the whole party. But a small bonus to a situational maneuver or skill is kind of blah.
Mesmerist - strikes me as a bard archtype, but I didn't read it fully. I did note that the spell list had a bunch of spells from books I don't own. So that was another turn off.
Occultist - Again this has a lot of flavor and seems the most original of the classes. This is the class that gives me the most inspiration to actually play. But again I see complicated (and uninspired) mechanics for moderate gain. I'd rather play a bard.
Spiritualist - This really comes across as an archetype for the Summoner. I love playing a summoner for the summon monster SLA (and I hate the eidolon for getting in the way of that). Seeing a class that does the exact opposite just made me sad. I moved on.
Psychic - I found this to be the most disappointing. Again its an archetype for another class. This is the only place where I see actual psychic spells previewed and most come across as much weaker than a corresponding spell of the same level. When I had a chance to create a 4th level character for a Dragon's Demand game, I spent a lot of time reading and thinking about this class. Bottom line, I just couldn't do it and went with a sorcerer instead.
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Kineticist seems fun & original - it's nice to have a "Bender" class finally.
Medium - Even though I misunderstood HOW the Medium worked (it's not as Trance-centric as I first thought), I'm still not very impressed with it - it's big, clunky, overly-complex, and doesn't function at all the way a medium really should.
Occultist is probably my favorite class from this. It's kinda complicated, but nowhere near the Medium, and it'll be fun to play a Harry Dresden / John Constantine character.
The other three are... kinda uninspired. Functional, and good, but uninspired.
Mesmerist should be an Alternate class to the Bard, the Spiritualist an AC to the Summoner, and the Psychic an AC to the Sorcerer.
If these three aren't made Alternate Classes, or at least be acknowledge to be some manner of alternate version of those classes, and are instead billed as "All-New, All-Unique!" Base classes, then it'd be the first time I actually lose faith in Paizo.
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Here are my final impressions of the classes:
Kineticist As others have said, it's great to finally have a bender/mutant class. I'm of the mind that burn is currently too punitive, which I suspect is because the development team may be too fearful of unlimited uses of the kinetic blast (which many, many playtest reports, builds, and close readings of the class have demonstrated is immaterial). This class needs to be stronger both in and out of combat, but delivers on concept. Very excited for this class.
Medium Perhaps the class I looked at the least since it seems predisposed towards melee builds, which aren't my personal favorite. I think I wanted this class to be like 3.5 Master of Masks, which to some extent it is. I'm hoping that the archetypes for this can provide players with more streamlined, direct options as the current swathe of choices is a tad overwhelming.
Mesmerist Ah yes, the class I psychically predicted. It got off to a rocky start, but the later improvements seem to be moving it in the right direction. I'm hoping to see an archetype that gives up tricks entirely in favor of more multi-enemy debuffing (since the witch can already do single debuffs quite well). Thematically, I like what the class is going for, but I think archetypes is really where the class's various possible directions will really shine (Guild Wars mesmer, stage magician, hypnotist, thrallherd, gaze-attack specialist, etc.).
Occultist Another favorite for this playtest and one that speaks to the themes of Occult Adventures in more than just name. I'm hoping that the occultist will have some ability to draw on the spells used for the creation of magic items when those items are used as implements to expand on the class's spellcasting ability. I like that the class can go the melee route, but I hope that it doesn't become the superior option. An archetype that shifts the focus to the magic circles and expands on their uses would be a fantastic addition.
Psychic A bit bland, perhaps, but another personal favorite. This class has a lot of promise in my mind, should it receive the more robust and thematic spell selection that's been hinted at in the final release. I'm hoping that if the ability to dip into the kineticist isn't made available through a discipline, that perhaps it will via an archetype.
Spiritualist I agree with other posters that this class is living in the wake of the summoner and has suffered for it. I've made suggestions in its own thread about possible directions the designers may want to take the class, but as it currently stands, the spiritualist fails to bring anything truly unique to the table, despite the major flavor opportunities available to it.
Thank you again, Paizo staff and designers, for letting us be a part of the shaping these classes. It's always a pleasure and an honor.
One last thought about the classes in general. It seems evident that while the kineticist is the personal favorite for many of the playtesters, I get the sense that each and every one of these classes have engendered a great deal of affection across the board(s!). Some people are bonkers for the mesmerist, others have long-envisioned the medium, and others want more than anything for the spiritualist to find its legs.
Well done, designers, in choosing class concepts that have so successfully resonated with your players.
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When I sit down and rank my intetest in pathfinder's classes, I find the occult classes are all in my top half. Kineticist, medium, and mesmerist are actually my top 3 overall. Occultist makes the top 10 right in there among the six level "skill casters" like Inquisitor and Alchemist. I have zero intetest in Summoner, but something about Spiritualist resonates with me more than it's obvious parent. Same with Psychic. Both barely make the top half (there are 35 classes, so, the top 17).
I am probably an usual player though. I like more unconventional stuff, I don't want to just be really strong and hit stuff, and I really hate vancian casting and pets, so my bottom 3 are wizard, cleric, and cavalier. I suspect that the same stuff I love about OA so far is exactly what most people dislike, so, to each their own. But, yeah, this book seems custom written for me, so, consider me enthused.
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Kineticist:
Flavour: 10/10
This is a class I've been homebrewing since the 3.5 warlock. The Kineticist captures the flavour of mind over matter perfectly.
Mechanics: 6/10
The At-Will blasts are fantastic, but the class' lack of versatility (skill/talent wise) hurts it. I think that burn is balanced but I don't think it feels fun.
Medium
Flavour: 7/10
I like the Harrow as a way of differentiating spirits, but the lack of divination/necromancy focus in the class features doesn't really lend itself to the historical idea of Mediums.
Mechanics 5/10
Potentially cool, but almost too confusing for me to comfortably build and run one. Simplify man.
Mesmerist
Flavour 10/10
Harry Houdini to the charlatans that are the rest of the OC classes. Stage Magic and Hypnotism as key features are awesome.
Mechanics 8/10
A witch/bard hybrid with some unique abilities of its own. This class just needs some tightening to make perfect.
Occultist
Flavour: 10/10
Love the flavour, love that it's built around object reading and unlocking the power of objects.
Mechanics 8/10
Great mechanics that have some complexity but not over the top. An artificer for Pathfinder. I dig it.
Psychic
Flavour 9/10
Our occult generalist and full spell-caster. A much needed addition to the lore.
Mechanics 6/10
A sorcerer chassis that doesn't quite have enough interesting options to compete with the sorcerer. Needs more phrenic options and phrenic pool should be treated more like grit (with more ways to regain points).
Spiritualist
Flavour 8/10
Haunted by a personal spirit or ghost is a trope I've wanted for a long time. Emotion focus is cool.
Mechanics 7/10
A cool class but it needs a little more options for spirit emotions, and needs to either change it's spellcasting to 9 level or up its combat abilities. Right now it doesn't quite do anything well.
I think it's neato-frito. I'm excited to see what other material is going to be in the final book. Afterall...
Chakras! Chakras! Everybody loves Chakras!
The Kineticist, Medium, and Occultist (though I didn't get to participate much in the Medium and Occultist playtests) all rank very highly for me in terms of interest. I love the Spiritualist as well in terms of flavor, but its mechanics are so far removed from what I want the class to be that I am very doubtful that I will ever play one. The Psychic and Mesmerist were never very interesting to me; I'll give them another look when the final version comes out.
The other thing I will say concerns the whole "Occult ADVENTURES" thing:
The title basically makes it seem like it's in line with Mythic Adventures. Which would kinda suggest that the book should probably focus more on general "Occult" or "Psychic" things, rather than classes.
I don't MIND the classes, really, but you'd think that a book that seemingly falls in line with Mythic Adventures would instead include rules for Psychic abilities that anyone with a strong-enough Charisma could use, similar to Psionics from the 1st & 2nd Edition AD&D Player's Handbook (though probably not the Psionics Handbook from 2nd Ed).
With only seeing the classes, it kinda feels like the books shouldn't be called Occult Adventures, and instead should maybe be more like Ultimate Mystery or something, since then it falls a bit more in line thematically with Ultimate Combat & Ultimate Magic.
Then again, there were 6 classes in the Advanced Player's Guide...
I dunno, that's probably just me being picky - I'll just wait and see what the book looks like before it's set to come out. I may end up not using it at all, as well, since I'm not a fan of having "psychic spells," and would prefer sticking with Divine and Arcane for spellcasters; the mechanics are just... blegh... compared to traditional A/D spells.
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I'm very worried about the classes that aren't the Kineticist or Medium. Those two got a great deal of dev comments compared to the other ones. In particular, I fear the Psychic and Spiritualist will suffer the most. Psychic was very bland and boring and had nothing that made it pop with me. Spiritualist was weak and seemed like they were too worried about making a Summoner 2.0 to give it anything cool and unique. With the lack of dev responses for those two class, I fear they will be left to mediocrity.
There will have to be a lot done to the Occult classes to make them unique and fun. Only the Kineticist, Medium, and Occultist seemed to fit that. The other classes just felt boring and uncompelling. I hope that the playtest data will reflect this and we can give the classes (especially the Psychic and Spiritualist) more of a creative oomph. As it stands, though , without some kind of post-playtest summary for each class, I'm not really holding my breath for good mechanics. The fluff, however, should be awesome and probably the main reason I would get a copy of OA.
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Spiritualist was weak and seemed like they were too worried about making a Summoner 2.0 to give it anything cool and unique. With the lack of dev responses for those two class, I fear they will be left to mediocrity.
Stephen earned a lot of goodwill from me with the Investigator, so I'm taking a wait and see approach on that. I am, however, very disappointed with the state the class has been left in at the end of the playtest.
Delaying its best offensive and support spells by three levels and giving it nothing in return has neutered what was already a very underperforming class.
Yeah I'm trying REALLY hard to be optimistic about OA, especially since A) I love psionics and B) I love the occult. It just feels like the Kineticist and Medium got the most out of this playtest, while the other classes were afterthoughts. I ended up losing interest in the playtest because I didn't really see a lot of feedback in the other topics like we saw with the Kineticist.
I really hope there are a lot of updates soon on the state of the classes, like we got with the ACG (but sooner). There really should have been a second round. I don't feel comfortable with only one round of playtesting, especially one that was only for a month.
Kineticist and medium post-mortems will go up in their associated threads next week, after the design team has a post-playtest meeting. I could put up my thoughts today, but at the advice of playtesters who voted in the kineticist thread, I will wait in case things change after the meeting.
Kineticist and medium post-mortems will go up in their associated threads next week, after the design team has a post-playtest meeting. I could put up my thoughts today, but at the advice of playtesters who voted in the kineticist thread, I will wait in case things change after the meeting.
Can we expect a post mortem post for all of the classes?
Kineticist and medium post-mortems will go up in their associated threads next week, after the design team has a post-playtest meeting. I could put up my thoughts today, but at the advice of playtesters who voted in the kineticist thread, I will wait in case things change after the meeting.Can we expect a post mortem post for all of the classes?
Those had other designers. I guess it is up to them?
For my purposes, flavor encompasses both the concept and whether the rules translate into fulfilling that concept. Meanwhile, mechanics merely refers to balance and how much enjoyment I can derive interacting with these new rules.
I love talking about rules and I have and had a lot to say about them.
Flavor: 5/10
Mechanics: 5/10
Honestly, I am a little disappointed that we are not getting a new spell system in any meaningful way, but understand why that is hard and there would be some kind of effort in maintaining general rules cohesion. I just always liked thinking of psychic abilities being somehow distinct from magic. Psychic powers—in my mind and within my personal setting—should include effects and mechanics that are largely distinct from the magic other "casters" use. The psychic spells are too “safe” for my tastes, but it is what it is.
Flavor: 10/10
Mechanics: 7/10
Pretty solid. Maybe this class is—in its way—the sort of weirdness that I really wanted. I feel like putting “telekineticist” and “pyrokineticist” (both classic psychic power sets) under the same mec hanical umbrella is a really good idea, and making everything “at will” really does feel like the way to go flavor-wise. I think there is some work to do balancing the various elements against each other (though perhaps less work than some people would assert) and I feel like there should be a way to improve accuracy or spell penetration for when you really need it (as the damage math starts to buckle badly when you are dealing with an enemy with a good AC and has spell resistance) . Burn is unwieldy but interesting and cool; mechanically, l find myself a tad conflicted by burn, but I would prefer something new over something old any day of the week. Getting this class perfect feels like it is going to require a real hat trick but I have made my suggestions.
Flavor: 9/10
Mechanics 8/10
This is more of the weirdness that I love. I feel like it maybe needs a name change but the whole thing is friggen neato-keen. I think the whole class is much closer to where it needs to be balance-wise, but I think I could stand to see the powers of intelligence and wisdom spirits (really, the “power using” builds) improved a little bit for the most part. Beseeching spirits is neat but most of those mechanics are situational at best. I hope more intelligence spirits have what we would classically conceive as “skill powers” (especially the ability to find and disarm magical traps). Being able to turn into “Mr. Dungeon Delver” when you need to would be lovely.
Flavor 4/10
Mechanics 3/10
While other people seem really enthused about this class, I almost feel like the emperor has no clothes. I wanted to see this class to move towards being a sort of robed hypnotist from the mysterious orient. But I guess people wanted something more physical like harry Houdini or The Shadow. That is cool, but I don’t think the mechanics are anywhere near good enough to make this class add to combat. The extra damage from painful stare can only happen once a round. That is a crappy buff and a crappy even if it can always be on. As pathfinder’s umpteenth magic guy who stabs people, I think it is the least viable both due to the lack of accuracy and because the extra damage from painful stare each round is almost a joke (+1 damage a round at levels 1 and 2 and then something like 4.5 if you can land the hit yourself with you MAD reduced ¾ BAB accuracy). Painful stare is a motion towards making the class feel like it can do something with its standard actions other than cast spells. However, I feel the mechanic is essentially ceremonial. Maybe it could have a move-action buff like the kineticist’s gather elements? I am not sure what to do about it. Maybe bold stare will get some new functionality and maybe the final version of tricks will be solid. I will believe it when I see it, though.
Flavor: 10/10
Mechanics 6/10
I like a lot about it. It is a cool item using class. I just think it has an identity issue. It really can’t ever be good at anything. I don’t think it is even that great of a jack of all trades. I can—however—weirdly become a guy who does almost everything. But again: it is never any good. I wish this class had a couple of new mechanics that would either give it a new direction or let more solidly fulfill the many different directions that it COULD go.
Flavor 7/10
Mechanics 7/10
This is a wholly serviceable new full caster. The whole class is kind of obvious, but I think it is executed well enough. I like the phrenic pool. I feel like a psychic should be able to power up his psychic abilities. It is solid and I foresee it becoming more solid when its full spell list comes to light.
Flavor 9/10
Mechanics 5/10
I really love the idea behind the spiritualist. Was there a mandate that classes should be too weak for this play test and then get scaled up later? Because like the Occultist, I feel like it never gets anything that can make it have a meaningful role in the party. Like: were we supposed to just stress test these things and see if we could make them good somehow? There are a lot of ways that this class could become functional. I said as much in that thread. I am looking forward to what Stephan will do.
Those had other designers. I guess it is up to them?Kineticist and medium post-mortems will go up in their associated threads next week, after the design team has a post-playtest meeting. I could put up my thoughts today, but at the advice of playtesters who voted in the kineticist thread, I will wait in case things change after the meeting.Can we expect a post mortem post for all of the classes?
That's fair. I certainly hope they do. I'd like to see what insight they have from the playtest.
In the end, I just don't like the inclusion of the psionics classes in a book titled "Occult Adventures." After playing the various classes and running campaigns with them, the telekinesis-based classes just don't fit in with the flavor of the rest of the classes, which are mostly based on 19th century movements like spiritualism, mesmerism, theosophy, etc. There are a LOT of other movements from that period that would have been better fits. The psionics classes should have gone in another book devoted to that sort of thing.
I haven't decided whether to buy the final product or not. For me, the space taken up by the psionics classes is lost space, so I have to determine whether or not there's enough left to warrant paying the price for it. I'm unlikely to ever use the psionics classes in any of my campaigns, so that's a lot of lost content for me when looking at the value of the final product.