What are we doing wrong with summoning?

[Sapient]

Meirril wrote:

But Conjuror's Focus already says if you use it while the previous is still active the old one "instantly ends". So even with the 20th level cap ability you'll only have 1 Conjuror's Focus active at any time. Just you can replace it as a standard action and it costs no resources and the duration is unlimited.

Yes indeed. I was trying to get the idea that you have unlimited* access to any spells, SLAs, etc that your summonable creatures possess. For example, you could keep summoning Trumpet Archons for unlimited* Heal spells. Summon 5 more to have Protection from Energy from acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. Etc.

*limited by time, but not by spell slots or arcane points.

[Apple123]

In general however Spells/SLAs vanish if the summonend Monster vanishes, so for multiple effect you would usually use lower level summons.

### When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. ###

[Melkiador]

Quote:

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire.

So, both the spell and the creature must end for the creature's spells to expire. So, a killed summoned monster's spells should still be in effect until the spell that summoned it ends. But the point still stands, because the summoning SLAs are written in a way to end the spell, not just the creatures.

Quote:

If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster immediately ends.

[Sapient]

Melkiador wrote:

Quote:

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire.

So, both the spell and the creature must end for the creature's spells to expire. So, a killed summoned monster's spells should still be in effect until the spell that summoned it ends. But the point still stands, because the summoning SLAs are written in a way to end the spell, not just the creatures.

Quote:

If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster immediately ends.

I'm feeling confused, and perhaps blind. Why does the ending of the summon monster end any spells that monster might have cast?

[Mark Hoover 330]

I have to agree with many in this thread; summons appear to be a force multiplier, not an auto-success. Granted, I've only gotten them to 7th level but I run a game that includes a Druid (Swamp Druid)7 that has Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summons feats. She is saving to buy a Rod of Extend Spell. Once she has this she'll be summoning creatures that stick around for 14 rounds.

So far on the battlefield I've dealt with Giant Centipedes, Wolves and Dolphins to name a few. In none of those instances were the summoned creatures dominating the fight. However in one low level fight 1 giant centipede ended up meaning: 1 hit that didn't hit the barbarian who was low on HP because of a trap; a +2 Flanking bonus for said barbarian; 1 round later it ate the AoO of a skilled Kobold warrior 3 so that the barbarian could move through threatened space and finish the job.

Yes, recalling that fight the giant centipede lasted 2 rounds and didn't end up hitting or dealing a single point of damage. It did however spare the barbarian 2 potential hits (at the time her raging AC was abysmal) when she was wounded and also made her 10% more accurate for a round.

Thinking of it another way, that would've been like a wizard somehow managing to cast Windy Escape on the barbarian even though it's a personal spell, twice, while another PC risked themselves to grant Flanking.

All of those benefits from a single spell.

I also think another thing folks need to remember about summoning is that once your first wave of summons hits the battlefield, future rounds of the fight are open to the summoner to either contribute MORE creatures or help out the horde they've just delivered.

[Sapient]

Sapient wrote:

I'm feeling confused, and perhaps blind. Why does the ending of the summon monster end any spells that monster might have cast?

Ok, I found it.

[Delenot]

Thank you! I was unaware that both the summoning spell AND the summoned casting creature had to be over to end a summoned creature's spell. That is great to know!!