Almost related... what are the best two weapons for a flurrying TWF brawler?
Well... depends really. Flurry, including the brawler's flurry, has some special characteristics.
Firstly, the thing that kills romance- you are probably better off not using two weapons. You can flurry with a single weapon, which means you only need to pay 1 weapons worth for all those attacks (thus a good enhancement bonus goes a very long way).
And secondly, the bury the romance 6 feet under- your flurry can be done with a 2 handed weapon, and you get 2 handed power attack from that. That is x1.5 power attack for your 2 'hands' of TWF (this is the main advantage of brawlers and monks over normal 'twf' builds- for them, power attack is undeniably a good move). So, going from your base proficiencies... a bayonet is the best weapon.
But going with your real intention- how about the cestus? It a spiked glove thing that has a 19-20/x2, and it can be worn 24/7 without any problems (only imposes a -2 to fine work like disable device). Maybe buy 1 for enhancing, and another for looking cool?
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Almost related... what are the best two weapons for a flurrying TWF brawler?Well... depends really. Flurry, including the brawler's flurry, has some special characteristics.
Firstly, the thing that kills romance- you are probably better off not using two weapons. You can flurry with a single weapon, which means you only need to pay 1 weapons worth for all those attacks (thus a good enhancement bonus goes a very long way).
And secondly, the bury the romance 6 feet under- your flurry can be done with a 2 handed weapon, and you get 2 handed power attack from that. That is x1.5 power attack for your 2 'hands' of TWF (this is the main advantage of brawlers and monks over normal 'twf' builds- for them, power attack is undeniably a good move). So, going from your base proficiencies... a bayonet is the best weapon.
But going with your real intention- how about the cestus? It a spiked glove thing that has a 19-20/x2, and it can be worn 24/7 without any problems (only imposes a -2 to fine work like disable device). Maybe buy 1 for enhancing, and another for looking cool?
What would be a good two-hander for it then? I'm not very well versed on weapons, so if it's not a "greatsword/axe" I don't know much about it. What two-handed from the close/monk weapons would work well for a brawler?
But mainly, if I'm using a two-handed weapon, why would I flurry? As far as I can tell there is no difference except I'm using my full str bonus instead of 1 1/2 times my str bonus like if I just full attacked.
Bayonet is the best two-hander for Flurry because its damage increases with Close Weapon Mastery, but to be fair that only kicks in later on.
Almost related... what are the best two weapons for a flurrying TWF brawler?Well... depends really. Flurry, including the brawler's flurry, has some special characteristics.
Firstly, the thing that kills romance- you are probably better off not using two weapons. You can flurry with a single weapon, which means you only need to pay 1 weapons worth for all those attacks (thus a good enhancement bonus goes a very long way).
And secondly, the bury the romance 6 feet under- your flurry can be done with a 2 handed weapon, and you get 2 handed power attack from that. That is x1.5 power attack for your 2 'hands' of TWF (this is the main advantage of brawlers and monks over normal 'twf' builds- for them, power attack is undeniably a good move). So, going from your base proficiencies... a bayonet is the best weapon.
But going with your real intention- how about the cestus? It a spiked glove thing that has a 19-20/x2, and it can be worn 24/7 without any problems (only imposes a -2 to fine work like disable device). Maybe buy 1 for enhancing, and another for looking cool?
What would be a good two-hander for it then? I'm not very well versed on weapons, so if it's not a "greatsword/axe" I don't know much about it. What two-handed from the close/monk weapons would work well for a brawler?
But mainly, if I'm using a two-handed weapon, why would I flurry? As far as I can tell there is no difference except I'm using my full str bonus instead of 1 1/2 times my str bonus like if I just full attacked.
As I said, you get 1 1/2 times power attack on each hit... which, because flurry is a 'fake TWF' (or a bit more real with the brawler), then you are basically getting 3 times power attack over your two hands. I might not have explained that well enough before though. So the trade is -2 to attack for a lot more power attack.
As I said, the only 2 handed weapon they can flurry from the get go seems to be the bayonet (a close weapon) and quarterstaff (a monk weapon). Maybe the heavy shield, although that has its own worries. For more monk weapons, if you are willing to go to the trouble of getting them, then the Sansetsukon (dip a class with martial weapons would nab this) or the temple sword (dip monk) are the main ones since they are 19-20/x2. Everything else that can be 2 handed....not worth the trouble of exotic weapon proficiency or they are just worse weapons really.
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Would a heavy shield be a good weapon for a brawler? Can stick shield spikes and bashing in it to count it as a larger weapon and can still use it two handed for the additional power attack damage.
Brawlers aren't proficient with shields as armor, so if you're going to use it for the AC bonus prepare for rather large penalties. Otherwise if you're just "weapon wielding" it then it seems like it'd be a good weapon.
Almost related... what are the best two weapons for a flurrying TWF brawler?Well... depends really. Flurry, including the brawler's flurry, has some special characteristics.
Firstly, the thing that kills romance- you are probably better off not using two weapons. You can flurry with a single weapon, which means you only need to pay 1 weapons worth for all those attacks (thus a good enhancement bonus goes a very long way).
And secondly, the bury the romance 6 feet under- your flurry can be done with a 2 handed weapon, and you get 2 handed power attack from that. That is x1.5 power attack for your 2 'hands' of TWF (this is the main advantage of brawlers and monks over normal 'twf' builds- for them, power attack is undeniably a good move). So, going from your base proficiencies... a bayonet is the best weapon.
But going with your real intention- how about the cestus? It a spiked glove thing that has a 19-20/x2, and it can be worn 24/7 without any problems (only imposes a -2 to fine work like disable device). Maybe buy 1 for enhancing, and another for looking cool?
What would be a good two-hander for it then? I'm not very well versed on weapons, so if it's not a "greatsword/axe" I don't know much about it. What two-handed from the close/monk weapons would work well for a brawler?
But mainly, if I'm using a two-handed weapon, why would I flurry? As far as I can tell there is no difference except I'm using my full str bonus instead of 1 1/2 times my str bonus like if I just full attacked.
Good two-hander would be either a Tri-Point Double-Edged Sword for reach or a Spiked Bashing Heavy Shield wielded in two hands for three size increases to an already oversized damage die thanks to Close Weapon Mastery. Flurrying either a 6d8 or 8d6 (depending on which damage track we're supposed to follow, has that finally been figured out yet or no?) weapon is nothing to sneeze at, especially since you can still throw lead blades and enlarge person on that to make it even more beat-facey.
As others have said, wielding a shield two handed is great both because of damage potential and because you get way more mileage out of Power Attack. Of course, if you want to use a shield defensively as well, there is an archetype for that as well.
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Almost related... what are the best two weapons for a flurrying TWF brawler?Well... depends really. Flurry, including the brawler's flurry, has some special characteristics.
Firstly, the thing that kills romance- you are probably better off not using two weapons. You can flurry with a single weapon, which means you only need to pay 1 weapons worth for all those attacks (thus a good enhancement bonus goes a very long way).
And secondly, the bury the romance 6 feet under- your flurry can be done with a 2 handed weapon, and you get 2 handed power attack from that. That is x1.5 power attack for your 2 'hands' of TWF (this is the main advantage of brawlers and monks over normal 'twf' builds- for them, power attack is undeniably a good move). So, going from your base proficiencies... a bayonet is the best weapon.
But going with your real intention- how about the cestus? It a spiked glove thing that has a 19-20/x2, and it can be worn 24/7 without any problems (only imposes a -2 to fine work like disable device). Maybe buy 1 for enhancing, and another for looking cool?
What would be a good two-hander for it then? I'm not very well versed on weapons, so if it's not a "greatsword/axe" I don't know much about it. What two-handed from the close/monk weapons would work well for a brawler?
But mainly, if I'm using a two-handed weapon, why would I flurry? As far as I can tell there is no difference except I'm using my full str bonus instead of 1 1/2 times my str bonus like if I just full attacked.
As I said, you get 1 1/2 times power attack on each hit... which, because flurry is a 'fake TWF' (or a bit more real with the brawler), then you are basically getting 3 times power attack over your two hands. I might not have explained that well enough before though. So the trade is -2 to attack for a lot more power attack.
As I said, the only 2 handed weapon they can flurry from the get go seems to be the bayonet (a close weapon) and quarterstaff (a monk weapon). Maybe the heavy shield, although that has its own worries. For more monk weapons, if you are willing to go to the trouble of getting them, then the Sansetsukon (dip a class with martial weapons would nab this) or the temple sword (dip monk) are the main ones since they are 19-20/x2. Everything else that can be 2 handed....not worth the trouble of exotic weapon proficiency or they are just worse weapons really.
I don't understand. Are you saying that if I have a single two-handed weapon I can still "flurry as though I had two separate weapons"? As far as I can see that only works with a monk's flurry. Just that "I don't have to use different weapons" but I don't see anything that says that I can make multiple attacks with a two-handed weapon without having a high enough BAB.
edit: In summary, monks get an extra attack at highest bab with all attacks at -2 similar to TWF.
Brawlers gain TWF while flurrying. I don't see enough text in here to say that brawlers get an extra attack with a 2h weapon while flurrying.
That's my confusion. It looks like you're implying that brawlers get an extra attack but I'm not seeing it.
I don't understand. Are you saying that if I have a single two-handed weapon I can still "flurry as though I had two separate weapons"? As far as I can see that only works with a monk's flurry. Just that "I don't have to use different weapons" but I don't see anything that says that I can make multiple attacks with a two-handed weapon without having a high enough BAB.
Here.
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
So you can use monk weapon, close weapon, or unarmed strike for all of the attacks from your flurry's TWF. Ergo, things like bayonets, quarterstaves, heavy shields, etc. are valid for this purpose, allowing you to get the ton of attacks found with TWF (this is what I was implying- TWF has more attacks in general than a normal iterative attack).
And since you still get your full 2 handed power attack, that means you are getting a decent bonus on all of those attacks.
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Would a heavy shield be a good weapon for a brawler? Can stick shield spikes and bashing in it to count it as a larger weapon and can still use it two handed for the additional power attack damage.Brawlers aren't proficient with shields as armor, so if you're going to use it for the AC bonus prepare for rather large penalties. Otherwise if you're just "weapon wielding" it then it seems like it'd be a good weapon.
As long as the heavy shield is either darkwood or mithril - there are no armor check penalties. A light shield just needs to be masterworked.
In addition, there's an argument that bashing on the shield would stack with the high base dice from the brawler table. (The spikes definitely wouldn't as they're on the close weapon list in their own right.)
The disadvantage of using a shield is that it has a weak crit. Many of the other brawler weapons have better crit, and going unarmed allows you to use pummeling style, you don't have -4 to the brawler's damage table, and opens up a few other feats. (Vicious stomp is awesome for a trip build.)
The Two Weapon Warrior archetype for Fighters is another option out there. The two advantages are the reduced penalties for dual wielding (including letting you use two one handed weapons with the same penalty as using light weapons), and using both weapons on a standard action or attack of opportunity. Most of the abilities come on line fairly late, though, and you don't get Weapon Training, so you can't use Dueling Gloves.
On the other hand, at 11th level, you can use two bastard swords with the same penalty as using two light weapons. That's a fun image. In the end, you don't get the massive potential damage that sneak attack can bring, but when you add all the fighter and archetype goodies, you're able to do quite a bit of consistent damage. In addition, you still keep the heavy armor proficiency, which is nice.
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I am not sure that I see the advantage of going Slayer after a 1 level dip into Swashbuckler for a DEX-based character. The advantage of Slayer is that you can get TWF w/o the focus on DEX.
Going for three levels of Ninja, mixed with levels of Swashbuckler, gives you lots of versatility (Vanish, for instance), along with the ability to add your Swashbuckler damage to your attack when you can't attack as a full round action. Panache plus a Ki Pool is pretty slick - and your damage is pretty consistent, too.
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Okay, so, a lets go with a level 2 brawler with an 18 strength and power attack.
They flurry with an unarmed strike for +4/+4 1d6+4
They flurry with an unarmed strike and power attack for +3/+3 1d6+6
They flurry with a heavy shield in one hand for +4/+4 +1d4+4
They flurry with a heavy shield in one hand and power attack for +3/+3 +1d4+6
They flurry with a heavy shield in two hands for +4/+4 +1d4+4
They flurry with a heavy shield in two hands and power attack for +3/+3 +1d4+7
(They don't get one and a half times strength bonus, but do get the power attack bonus, for weilding a weapon in two hands).
They get an extra attack because brawlers flurry says they can get an extra attack with unarmed strikes and close weapons. They can flurry with one weapon just like a monk can.
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Brawler's Flurry (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler's flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks.
It says nothing about "getting an extra attack" it just says they gain TWF and they do not need to use separate weapons. (so that to implies that if I have a dagger in one hand and just a fist in the other, I have a choice of punch/punch, punch/dagger, or dagger/dagger instead of specifically having to use punch/dagger)
Now contrast that to an actual monk's flurry.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).
Monks explicitly gain an additional attack as if using TWF. This is very different in that it's merely likening it to TWF to explain the -2 penalty. Brawlers explicitly gain the TWF feat while flurrying.
I don't see anything that would imply that a brawler gets an extra attack with a two-handed weapon--whether or not it's from the close weapon group. Where are you getting that text from?
Brawler's Flurry (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler's flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks.
It says nothing about "getting an extra attack" it just says they gain TWF and they do not need to use separate weapons. (so that to implies that if I have a dagger in one hand and just a fist in the other, I have a choice of punch/punch, punch/dagger, or dagger/dagger instead of specifically having to use punch/dagger)
Now contrast that to an actual monk's flurry.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).
Monks explicitly gain an additional attack as if using TWF. This is very different in that it's merely likening it to TWF to explain the -2 penalty. Brawlers explicitly gain the TWF feat while flurrying.
I don't see anything that would imply that a brawler gets an extra attack with a...
It is common knowledge that the wording was changed because giving the monk "pseudo, special" TWF caused a lot of questions to come up, so to try to fix that the dex gave the brawler the actual feats with some extra abilities so that it would work like flurry.
Flurry of Blows calls out the extra attack because it is not TWF. They had to say it, to make to clear.
With the brawler ability they are giving you the TWF feat. TWF(the fighting style) already gives you an extra attack, so there is no need to repeat that.
Paizo then goes on to say that "She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability." Which means that you do not need to use two different weapons to use the ability.
Go swashbuckler to get Swashbuckler's finesse. Pick up slashing grace. Take EWP(sawtooth sabre). You now get your full dex damage to both your main and off hand weapon.
I would also suggesting going into another class because you only need one level of Swashbuckler to pull this off.
I think using Two Weapons is the still the best way to do TWF now
The reason for going with only one weapon is to save money. Since you get the same number of attacks, there really is no need for a 2nd weapon. It also allows you to power attack if needed for monsters that have a DR that you can't bypass.
Taldrin the Hurricane
Level 10 Human Slayer (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored, ReactionaryStr:16(22) (Base 16+2Human and Ability points at 4 and 8)
Dex:15(17)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:10Feats/Talents:
1: Two Weapon Fighting
Human: EWP Sawtooth Saber
It looks like you took Dual Talent and the bonus feat. Dual Talent trades out the bonus feat for the second ability score bump.
Did I misread that?
Go swashbuckler to get Swashbuckler's finesse. Pick up slashing grace. Take EWP(sawtooth sabre). You now get your full dex damage to both your main and off hand weapon.
I would also suggesting going into another class because you only need one level of Swashbuckler to pull this off.
Plus a bunch of swashbuckler mechanics hate TWF.
I am very interested in this build, but I think I'm missing something. How does the Slayer flank with itself without Dimensional Savant? The earlier versions of the build didn't have that yet were still saying the build could flank opponents by itself to grant constant Sneak Attack.
Folks are getting into some very fancy abilities here. That's great, and I won't try to top it. My simple suggestion is to consider using a shield as one of your two weapons. You can even use a heavy shield with a light weapon in your off hand.
Using a shield will probably help out your AC a lot in the long run, especially if you invest any feats in it. It will also let you make use of the potentially fun Shield Slam feat. Knocking folks prone is a pretty significant debuff. If you're playing a class that's chock full of feats you could also consider Bludgeoner + Enforcer. I guess you could get a similar effect with one less feat using the Merciful property on the shield. Either way, get the Cruel enchantment on your off hand weapon and you'll be a debuffing machine. A prone, shaken, sickened enemy is probably pretty close to a defeated enemy. There's also a Hurtful feat which would allow you to follow the free intimidate from Enforcer with a swift action attack on the same foe.
Most of that stuff besides the AC boost and Shield Slam isn't really shield specific. I like shields though.
I ran a dwarf slayer through Reign of Winter. TWF dorn-dergar and spiked shield, improved bullrush. No issues whatsoever knocking giants over, which beats cow-tipping any day of the week. Would have been better with a different weapon than the dorn-dergar, but eh. Was fun anyway (until we TPK'ed in book 4 due to some literal Insanity). Very solid build, and ample feats for luxury stuff - I ran Big Game Hunter and the aforementioned D-D feats, which could have been anything else you'd like.
In short - TWF with a spiked shield is really, really god for slayers (and rangers). I might go for a ranger next time, though - sneak attack is just too crummy to bother with, especially if you end up trying to use acrobatics to get into position and could have inflicted offhand attacks to the face instead. Spell access, on the other hand, is always good. Lead Blades would likely have done more than Sneak Attack ever did.
@Makarion - My Viking's TWF is done with a heavy shield lacking any spikes. Sneak attacking can be a tough assignment. Depending on your party composition Gang Up can be a pretty effective way of getting sneak attack damage though. It works out especially well if somebody in the party has a mount or perhaps a bird companion which can threaten the same foe as they do.
I am very interested in this build, but I think I'm missing something. How does the Slayer flank with itself without Dimensional Savant? The earlier versions of the build didn't have that yet were still saying the build could flank opponents by itself to grant constant Sneak Attack.
my bad… too many dimensional somethings to keep track of dimensional maneuvers is the one you need to (or can) skip.
Dimensional feat tree is kinda BS because its entry into it is too late (getting into it at 9th level is the earliest you can do it) and by the time you get to the top of the tree (it's not a combat feat so the soonest you can get there is using up the every other level feat) it's advantage is moot…..
most of the time, normal builds cut enter the feat tree until 11-13th level.
the horizon walker "trick" is the exception.
Folks are getting into some very fancy abilities here. That's great, and I won't try to top it. My simple suggestion is to consider using a shield as one of your two weapons. You can even use a heavy shield with a light weapon in your off hand.
Using a shield will probably help out your AC a lot in the long run, especially if you invest any feats in it. It will also let you make use of the potentially fun Shield Slam feat. Knocking folks prone is a pretty significant debuff. If you're playing a class that's chock full of feats you could also consider Bludgeoner + Enforcer. I guess you could get a similar effect with one less feat using the Merciful property on the shield. Either way, get the Cruel enchantment on your off hand weapon and you'll be a debuffing machine. A prone, shaken, sickened enemy is probably pretty close to a defeated enemy. There's also a Hurtful feat which would allow you to follow the free intimidate from Enforcer with a swift action attack on the same foe.
Most of that stuff besides the AC boost and Shield Slam isn't really shield specific. I like shields though.
I ran a dwarf slayer through Reign of Winter. TWF dorn-dergar and spiked shield, improved bullrush. No issues whatsoever knocking giants over, which beats cow-tipping any day of the week. Would have been better with a different weapon than the dorn-dergar, but eh. Was fun anyway (until we TPK'ed in book 4 due to some literal Insanity). Very solid build, and ample feats for luxury stuff - I ran Big Game Hunter and the aforementioned D-D feats, which could have been anything else you'd like.
In short - TWF with a spiked shield is really, really god for slayers (and rangers). I might go for a ranger next time, though - sneak attack is just too crummy to bother with, especially if you end up trying to use acrobatics to get into position and could have inflicted offhand attacks to the face instead. Spell access, on the other hand, is always good. Lead Blades would likely have done more than...
really…. so you favor favored enemy and lead blades over sneak attack?
Did you have a flank buddy?
Every time I play Im alway seeing flanking and AoO constantly.
Plus a bunch of swashbuckler mechanics hate TWF.Go swashbuckler to get Swashbuckler's finesse. Pick up slashing grace. Take EWP(sawtooth sabre). You now get your full dex damage to both your main and off hand weapon.
I would also suggesting going into another class because you only need one level of Swashbuckler to pull this off.
I noticed. That is the only way I know to make it work. I also don't care for the swashbuckler for other reasons, but that is another topic. However for this dip. (2 thumbs up)
@Makarion - My Viking's TWF is done with a heavy shield lacking any spikes. Sneak attacking can be a tough assignment. Depending on your party composition Gang Up can be a pretty effective way of getting sneak attack damage though. It works out especially well if somebody in the party has a mount or perhaps a bird companion which can threaten the same foe as they do.
Those are some heavy penalties unless you have a shield in both hands. Why not use a light shield?
...Folks are getting into some very fancy abilities here. That's great, and I won't try to top it. My simple suggestion is to consider using a shield as one of your two weapons. You can even use a heavy shield with a light weapon in your off hand.
Using a shield will probably help out your AC a lot in the long run, especially if you invest any feats in it. It will also let you make use of the potentially fun Shield Slam feat. Knocking folks prone is a pretty significant debuff. If you're playing a class that's chock full of feats you could also consider Bludgeoner + Enforcer. I guess you could get a similar effect with one less feat using the Merciful property on the shield. Either way, get the Cruel enchantment on your off hand weapon and you'll be a debuffing machine. A prone, shaken, sickened enemy is probably pretty close to a defeated enemy. There's also a Hurtful feat which would allow you to follow the free intimidate from Enforcer with a swift action attack on the same foe.
Most of that stuff besides the AC boost and Shield Slam isn't really shield specific. I like shields though.
I ran a dwarf slayer through Reign of Winter. TWF dorn-dergar and spiked shield, improved bullrush. No issues whatsoever knocking giants over, which beats cow-tipping any day of the week. Would have been better with a different weapon than the dorn-dergar, but eh. Was fun anyway (until we TPK'ed in book 4 due to some literal Insanity). Very solid build, and ample feats for luxury stuff - I ran Big Game Hunter and the aforementioned D-D feats, which could have been anything else you'd like.
In short - TWF with a spiked shield is really, really god for slayers (and rangers). I might go for a ranger next time, though - sneak attack is just too crummy to bother with, especially if you end up trying to use acrobatics to get into position and could have inflicted offhand attacks to the face instead. Spell access, on the other hand, is always good. Lead Blades would
With large enemies, it's not as easy to set up flanking. If there's multiple opponents even more so, since it's harder to avoid an AoO on the way to your flank. Even if you can, you'll be using a move action where you could have full-attacked. And that's not even going into opponents that protect eachother's flanks, or those with movement abilities that make it moot, such as burrowing or flight.
@wraithstrike - Using a shield in both hands wouldn’t match up with my goal of being a “typical” (or perhaps stereotypical) Viking. That said, there could be some confusion between Makarion’s PC and mine here. My Viking uses a heavy shield in his primary hand and a light hammer in his off hand. The TWF penalty for that is only -2.
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For a full example of a slayer/horizon walker build:
Half Orc Slayer
Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice (endurance)
1.) Slayer 1: Power Attack
2.) Slayer 2: Slayer Talent: TWF
3.) Slayer 3: Two-weapon Rend, Sneak Attack: 1d6
4.) Slayer 4: Slayer Talent: Trapfinding
5.) Slayer 5: Double Slice
6.) Slayer 6: Slayer Talent: Improved TWF, Sneak attack: 2d6
7.) Horizon Walker 1, Favored Terrain: Urban, Feat: Outflank
8.) Horizon Walker 2, Favored Terrain: Astral, Terrain Mastery: Astral
9.) Horizon Walker 3, Terrain Dominance: Astral, Feat: Dimensional Agility
10.) Slayer 7
11.) Slayer 8: Combat Trick (Improved Critical), Feat: Dimensional Assault
12: Slayer 9: Sneak Attack 3d6
13.) Slayer 10:Slayer Talent: Greater TWF, Feat: Dimensional Dervish
14.) Slayer 11:
15.) Slayer 12: Sneak Attack 4d6, Feat: Dimensional Savant
You are seriously under-utilizing horizon walker by just using it to unlock Dimensional Dervish. Your first Slayer talent should go to Terrain Mastery and EVERY feat after that should be Extra Slayer Talent: Terrain Mastery. You can end up with a ridiculous static to hit/damage that is worth far more than the piddly 4d6 sneak attack damage.
You are seriously under-utilizing horizon walker by just using it to unlock Dimensional Dervish. Your first Slayer talent should go to Terrain Mastery and EVERY feat after that should be Extra Slayer Talent: Terrain Mastery. You can end up with a ridiculous static to hit/damage that is worth far more than the piddly 4d6 sneak attack damage.For a full example of a slayer/horizon walker build:
Half Orc Slayer
Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice (endurance)
1.) Slayer 1: Power Attack
2.) Slayer 2: Slayer Talent: TWF
3.) Slayer 3: Two-weapon Rend, Sneak Attack: 1d6
4.) Slayer 4: Slayer Talent: Trapfinding
5.) Slayer 5: Double Slice
6.) Slayer 6: Slayer Talent: Improved TWF, Sneak attack: 2d6
7.) Horizon Walker 1, Favored Terrain: Urban, Feat: Outflank
8.) Horizon Walker 2, Favored Terrain: Astral, Terrain Mastery: Astral
9.) Horizon Walker 3, Terrain Dominance: Astral, Feat: Dimensional Agility
10.) Slayer 7
11.) Slayer 8: Combat Trick (Improved Critical), Feat: Dimensional Assault
12: Slayer 9: Sneak Attack 3d6
13.) Slayer 10:Slayer Talent: Greater TWF, Feat: Dimensional Dervish
14.) Slayer 11:
15.) Slayer 12: Sneak Attack 4d6, Feat: Dimensional Savant
Dotting because I am going to build this I think.
You can end up with a ridiculous static to hit/damage that is worth far more than the piddly 4d6 sneak attack damage.
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You can end up with a ridiculous static to hit/damage that is worth far more than the piddly 4d6 sneak attack damage.How?
Terrain Dominance
At 3rd level, a horizon walker learns total dominance over one terrain he has already selected for terrain mastery. When dealing with creatures native to that terrain, the horizon walker treats his favored terrain bonus for that terrain as a favored enemy bonus (as the ranger class feature) against those creatures. This bonus overlaps (does not stack with) bonuses gained when fighting a favored enemy.
Terrain Mastery (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a favored terrain as the ranger ability of the same name, though the favored terrain ability does not increase with her level as the ranger's ability does. A rogue can take this ability multiple times, each time applying it to a new terrain, and granting all other favored terrains a +2 increase to the favored terrain bonus.
Bolded relevant bits. Because you can easily take Terrain Mastery 10 times, plus the Terrain Mastery from the Horizon walker class itself, you can have a +30 to hit and Damage vs everything that is native to three types of terrain.
Thanks.
Go swashbuckler to get Swashbuckler's finesse. Pick up slashing grace. Take EWP(sawtooth sabre). You now get your full dex damage to both your main and off hand weapon.
I would also suggesting going into another class because you only need one level of Swashbuckler to pull this off.
Just too much effort and feats working around dex. If I can, I just want to go straight to strength.
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@wraithstrike - Using a shield in both hands wouldn’t match up with my goal of being a “typical” (or perhaps stereotypical) Viking. That said, there could be some confusion between Makarion’s PC and mine here. My Viking uses a heavy shield in his primary hand and a light hammer in his off hand. The TWF penalty for that is only -2.
That is my fault for assuming the heavy shield was in the off-hand. :)
Just too much effort and feats working around dex. If I can, I just want to go straight to strength.Go swashbuckler to get Swashbuckler's finesse. Pick up slashing grace. Take EWP(sawtooth sabre). You now get your full dex damage to both your main and off hand weapon.
I would also suggesting going into another class because you only need one level of Swashbuckler to pull this off.
It is only a one level dip, but with my current slayer I actually went with strength because I did not want to take any dips. I have not ran any number, but I don't think I will my DPR will be that much lower.
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For giggles and stuff, can you post a rough build of this Imbicatus?
There's a pretty good breakdown in this thread, including a link back to StreamoftheSky's guide to the idea.
Just too much effort and feats working around dex. If I can, I just want to go straight to strength.Go swashbuckler to get Swashbuckler's finesse. Pick up slashing grace. Take EWP(sawtooth sabre). You now get your full dex damage to both your main and off hand weapon.
I would also suggesting going into another class because you only need one level of Swashbuckler to pull this off.
Someone already suggested ranger for a strength-based TWF, which is a very solid build. Monk is also a good start because you get (essentially) TWF and Double Slice both for free.
I built a TWF as a Fighter 8/Rogue 3/Barbarian 1. She was a balanced Strength and Dex character, with Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical in wakizashi, wielding two Furious wakizashis. (I got the Eastern Weapon Training for free as a boon, otherwise I would have spent the feat on EWP for sawtooth sabre). At 12th level, she was doing 1d6+18 on each hand, 4 times a round, with +2d6 sneak attack, hitting at +22/+22/+17/+17 and critting on a 15 or better, raging but otherwise unbuffed.
She also had Precise Strike and Outflank with her partner, which got really ugly when you added Bless Weapon into the mix: add 1d6 sneak attack, +4 to hit when flanking, auto-confirm crits against evil creatures, and when you crit, your partner gets to take an AoO. (Without a partner, you could spend those two feats elsewhere to increase your DPR.)
If possible, turn into a Marilith. They cheat, and don't even need any multiweapon feats.
For a full example of a slayer/horizon walker build:
Half Orc Slayer
Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice (endurance)
1.) Slayer 1: Power Attack
2.) Slayer 2: Slayer Talent: TWF
3.) Slayer 3: Two-weapon Rend, Sneak Attack: 1d6
4.) Slayer 4: Slayer Talent: Trapfinding
5.) Slayer 5: Double Slice
6.) Slayer 6: Slayer Talent: Improved TWF, Sneak attack: 2d6
7.) Horizon Walker 1, Favored Terrain: Urban, Feat: Outflank
8.) Horizon Walker 2, Favored Terrain: Astral, Terrain Mastery: Astral
9.) Horizon Walker 3, Terrain Dominance: Astral, Feat: Dimensional Agility
10.) Slayer 7
11.) Slayer 8: Combat Trick (Improved Critical), Feat: Dimensional Assault
12: Slayer 9: Sneak Attack 3d6
13.) Slayer 10:Slayer Talent: Greater TWF, Feat: Dimensional Dervish
14.) Slayer 11:
15.) Slayer 12: Sneak Attack 4d6, Feat: Dimensional Savant---------------------
I think that's about as good as you can do. I spent a few talents on general utility (trapfinding, evasion, urban/astral hide in plain sight), but the rest of it's just straight damage, homie.
A few nice twists:
Half-orcs get a 1d8/1d8 double weapon, so no particular need to spend a feat on sawtooth sabre.
You can get endurance as a racial trait, so no need to blow a feat on it.
Strength-dependence means that Two-Weapon Rend is basically another attack.
Power attack works dandy.
Plenty of free feats and talents in the build. I choose trapfinding, evasion, slayer camouflage and two-weapon rend/double slice, but you can do whatever.You _will_ be glass cannony, but your nova potential is absolutely ridiculous. This build might be even better with ranger as a base, just for all the favored enemies you could have
But ranger doesn't get sneak attack, negating the point of flunky BAMF with your self.
I really like the idea of slayer. Now, how about trying to move in fast and getting full BaB at the same time. What about trying to get the dimensional agility feat tree? Maybe get into Eldritch Knight somehow, to keep the full BaB going?
Alternatives are welcomed.
Tengu swordmaster rogue doesn't get full bab but it does get a Pounce like trance ability and can add the bite attack to your full attack. Though catfolk with Claw Pounce feat could be used with a full bab class if your okay with claw attacks.
Behold! The Dual-Shield-Wielding Warrior of the Faith, known as...
SAINT MIGHTY THE ARMADILLO - Human/Half-Orc/Half-Elf/Scion-Of-Humanity-Aasimar Warpriest
Race Hum Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Klar)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Improved Shield Bash, Duel Enhancement
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 Double Slice
CL6 Wrp6 Shield Slam, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Wrp7 Greater Weapon Focus (Klar)
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 ???, ???
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Master
lv12 full attack:
+11/+11/+6/+6/+1, 1d10 base damage per attack.
At lv12, can/should retrain to Champion of the Faith, since from then on there is no need to use the basic Sacred Weapon - Shield Master provides a better/permanent Bonus to attack/damage, and thus Dual Enhancement is redundant (so it's safe to lose now).
You, then, get a much-cheaper +5 enhancement to your attacks, a bonus to damage equal to your Charisma, a full attack that is naturally higher than the Sacred Fist's (identical if the SF has Weapon Focus), and should have the highest AC of any Warpriest build.
If you chose to be a half-human via Scion of Humanity, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc, then you have to put off some feats by a Feat Slot in order to gain Weapon Finesse, but the results can be that you get extra tidbits.