Goblinworks Game Designer
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To the best of my knowledge of the current plan, NPC towns will, indeed, probably be limited to lower Tier crafting (and probably lower Tier other things, like auctions, as well). TBD exactly whether the cutoff is (i.e., not sure if T1, T2, or some more granular breakpoint inside T2).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe part of the issue with PFO is, we really don't kniw who the game us being made for.I'm not often on the same page as Bludd, but frankly, Amen to that.
For all the openness in the process, I don't feel like I have any idea who the target market really is.
Funny, I've always felt like I had a pretty intuitive grasp of the target audience for PFO - namely, folks who want an engaging Sandbox that isn't overwhelmed by random PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm planning on playing a refiner; so just one step in the crafting scheme. I think threading doesn't kill crafting.
I think the game will see open-field PvP fights continuing for more than one death, depending on the odds. If the sides are somewhat closely matched, a battle might see some people dying 3 or 4 or 5 times. That's 20% of the way through a set of non-repairable gear. If one side is over-matched, they'll give up the field as quickly as they can. When settlements/companies are fighting over fixed sites, like POIs and Outpost raids, where fleeing the field means you'll lose an outpost or its production... Fights may continue through multiple sets of gear; maybe crafter-days per combatant.
Crafters will really have to be members of Player settlements, unless they limit themselves to Tier 1 junk. They can't progress past about skill 8 without access to player settlement trainers, and advanced player settlements are going to have much faster crafting queues than any NPC settlements - when the players decide to make their crafting assets better than average.
As to being world-renowned... It's more important that I...
While I understand crafters need player settlements for advanced training as long as they can make goods in npc settlements which as I understand is the plan then you will visit your settlement once a month for training then be expected to return to the npc settlements to craft.
There will be no danger of your mats going missing there because of settlement conquest and you will be like the industrialist in eve who is needed to supply goods but not wanted down in null (this is something ccp does wrong imo btw). In eve people are expected to have their main in null and use an alt for industry largely. I personally would like to see that change and make gathering and industry something settlements need to really care about.
As to consumable manufacture, ok they are nice to have but you can get along without them if you have to. You cannot however...
From one of Lee posts, rephrased:
"the area around NPC settlements (2 hexes) will have 1/3 of the resources of the wild areas and 1/64 of the resources of monsters hex."Crafter need resources, resources are localized in different areas of the map, and then they are limited.
One mountain area has 60% of all the coal present in the game.
You really think that dedicated crafter will trek all around the map to gather stuff and move it to NPC towns to craft or that traders will move raw stuff to the NPC towns?
Or instead they will make the first stage of refining in the settlements and move as little material as possible?
What is easier:
- move all the raw or refined materials to a NPC town or buy/loot only what you can't find locally and move it to you settlement to complete the items you need?
This isn't EVE, we have a very limited carrying capacity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To the best of my knowledge of the current plan, NPC towns will, indeed, probably be limited to lower Tier crafting (and probably lower Tier other things, like auctions, as well). TBD exactly whether the cutoff is (i.e., not sure if T1, T2, or some more granular breakpoint inside T2).
My feeling is that you are moving from "encourage groups endeavors" to "punish who isn't in a group".
It seem that there is a lot of stuff from which people will be barred until their guild is strong enough to have a strong presence at all hours of the day. Coming from the prospective of a European player I see a moderate number of people playing when I play, scattered all around a large map.
Trading? only vis a vis trading work decently, the AH is almost useless. And we can't choose how much stuff we trade, we have to either make click 1 item at a time to trade 1 item or we can give away all the material of that kind that we have in our inventory, no way to say "I am giving away 10 units of X". But it is hard to trade if the nearest guy is 2 hex away.
Escalations? Without the ability to buy decent gear and no one in your area it is hard to do them.
Gathering/crafting is is the easiest thing to do while you wait for other people, and they will be limited from people not in a big settlement? Seem punishing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My feeling is that you are moving from "encourage groups endeavors" to "punish who isn't in a group".
I don't see any movement. They've never said otherwise. This will be a social game, and it's always seemed pretty clear to me that people who don't want to be part of a player settlement (even if only on the fringes) will be intentionally held back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Philosophical question--why are players so eager to kill each other?
English hasn't adequately developed a well-understood vocabulary for it, but there is a mythos the player culture has invested in PvP that isn't available outside of PvP. It isn't exactly a myth because it is rooted in the current technical limitations of our hardware but we are approaching serious adaptability capabilities in our AI routines at the supercomputer level.
Eventually we should find that AI controlled opposition will be similarly ingenious and unpredictable as player opponents can be, but we aren't there yet.
We can write quite comprehensive conditional statement scripts and make them work, but making the full array of those scripts process as quickly as human players can is beyond our common technology.
So we have to settle for much more predictable routines even in our single-player games. Notice the behavior of the individuals comprising crowds in Assassin's Creed.
Player opponents in comparison are radically less predictable and thus vastly more challenging.
That segment of the customer base that is interested in challenge for their sense of accomplishment, for their appreciation of victory naturally exult over an achievement in PvP, and that market segment is a sizable portion. This is not to minimize the portion who aren't seeking direct challenge and stress, such as many table-top players and 'casuals' (those who already get plenty of challenge and stress as they pursue their careers in RL and just want to enjoy an adventure), but most of those attracted to PFO who aren't already personally invested in the Pathfinder P&P RPG will likely be coming for the PvP game, and if the PvP game doesn't work for them then Pathfinder will fail to attract more players into the tabletop expression, and that won't then benefit the sponsor Paizo.
So to enlarge the customer base for Paizo, PFO must do two things: attract those who can believe that interplayer conflict is a necessary and fun potential of more holistic role playing, and also demonstrate to the tabletop crowd that role-playing can happily incorporate competitive elements like PvP without loss of fidelity.
If these sides of the coin can be achieved in PFO we should find that the table-top game is better for the experience and in the MMO arena we will finally integrate quality PVP with RP rather than forever in metagame conflict among the players. That last would finally eliminate much of the 'carebear'/'player-killer' dysfunction that has plagued MMORPG communities since before the beginning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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..."punish who isn't in a group".
Unfortunately, that's a completely subjective viewing. It's equally accurate to say that people linked to NPC Settlements are playing the base level of the game, and those linked to more-advanced player-Settlements are being rewarded for taking that risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All views are inherently subjective, unless perhaps they are viewing measured numbers. Even then many people tend to skew in evaluating the numbers according to subjective preference.
If the subjective evaluation is accurately reported, then the subjective evaluation should be considered valid.
It is the subjective individual who will be playing their subjective experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Socially, the lack of a reward is a punishment. That is, if action A grants a reward, and action B does not, then A is being rewarded, A is not being punished, B is not being rewarded, and B is being punished.
There are some psychological tricks you can use to disguise it, and they can be amazingly effective.
In the beta version of the original game, rest did not exist and experience was designed to prevent players from playing more than few hours in a row. Experience gained was simply halved after few hours. However, beta-testers did not like it and rest was implemented, giving instead 200% of experience for few hours, which Blizzard's developers later reported as being the "same numbers seen from the opposite point of view".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder Online is a niche product with a niche audience. It's so niche that I doubt any of my RL gamer friends can be turned on to it, even when/if the project reaches its full potential.
The target market is: Mature, fantasy genre players who are looking for a competitive, long term sandbox MMO experience.
Glossary for the above:
Mature: Non griefers who can both win and lose with dignity.
Fantasy genre: If you are looking for uber realism there are other games, this one provides elves, dwarves and magic.
Competitive: PFO promises a "fair fight", but you need some drive to win if you're going to actually have fun here.
Long term: It's a game that requires commitment. That is not for everybody.
I do admit that I see the demo video for Black Desert and I drool. But I have been there and done that many times (GW2 the latest) and I am just sick and tired of 3 month stands with beautiful games, I want a lasting relationship like I haven't had in ages. A game that becomes a hobby. I do check out the field every now and then and sometimes a game sorta interests me but PFO is still the horse I'm betting on to supply that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But I have been there and done that many times (GW2 the latest) and I am just sick and tired of 3 month stands with beautiful games, I want a lasting relationship like I haven't had in ages. A game that becomes a hobby. I do check out the field every now and then and sometimes a game sorta interests me but PFO is still the horse I'm betting on to supply that.
I really can indentify with that, that is one of the reasons I have nearly exclusively played Crusader King and Victoria the last decade (with some marathon level Civ now and then as a quick fix).
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Crusader King and Victoria...
These boards are home to plenty of very happy Paradox gamers. My brother and I just finished the first game of Victoria II we've ever played all the way to the end, and we're now starting on Hearts of Iron III, in preparation for learning Hearts of Iron IV on its release next year.
Such amazing bottomless pits of time-loss...
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Crusader King and Victoria...These boards are home to plenty of very happy Paradox gamers. My brother and I just finished the first game of Victoria II we've ever played all the way to the end, and we're now starting on Hearts of Iron III, in preparation for learning Hearts of Iron IV on its release next year.
Such amazing bottomless pits of time-loss...
Far too many hours have been lost to Alpha Centauri...Brother Lal just keeps trying to take over Planet, and if Deirdre goes on about just *one* more sacred tree....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Always felt bad for the Care Bears name being hijacked. Care Bears were the honey badger of kid's cartoons. They handled their ****. Land of No Feelings, Professor Coldheart, No Heart Wizard, didn't matter, they handled their ****. Care Bear Stare, wicked powerful. Grumpy Bear would have none of this.
Now, Woozles, and Popples deserve it maybe, but not Care Bears.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing seems to be missing from the PVP discussion lately: A large segment of PVP is intended to be reputation-neutral. If you kill someone in the name of a war, a feud, or a faction conflict, you won't lose reputation, and you won't have to worry about how fast it would come back. You may be limited to 5-6 reputation-affecting killings per day, but you could kill as many war/feud/faction targets per day as you could find, with no penalties. Even during EE, you'll be able to make the rounds of hexes with open PVP windows, and kill people all day long.
The current system is totally distorted by the fact that wars, feuds and factions don't exist yet, and most PVP windows are broken. That's why the reputation regeneration rate seems so important right now. Get the PVP windows working, and we'll start fighting, regardless of the reputation regeneration rate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am just sick and tired of 3 month stands with beautiful games, I want a lasting relationship like I haven't had in ages. A game that becomes a hobby. I do check out the field every now and then and sometimes a game sorta interests me but PFO is still the horse I'm betting on to supply that.
This. A million times this. I want a game I can call home for a decade or more, not yet another 3 - 6 month rehash of the same themepark I've already tried so many times before.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My feeling is that you are moving from "encourage groups endeavors" to "punish who isn't in a group".I don't see any movement. They've never said otherwise. This will be a social game, and it's always seemed pretty clear to me that people who don't want to be part of a player settlement (even if only on the fringes) will be intentionally held back.
There is a gulf between "encourage" and "punish".
..."punish who isn't in a group".Unfortunately, that's a completely subjective viewing. It's equally accurate to say that people linked to NPC Settlements are playing the base level of the game, and those linked to more-advanced player-Settlements are being rewarded for taking that risk.
That is a way better argument. The problem, from my point of view, is that as I see it currently, the game don't allow people that don't play during peak hours to enjoy the settlement game. There aren't the structures to do that.
No AH in the settlements and they will not be available for several months, at least until we can build them ourself.
No structures to deposit items for other characters.
No structures/chats to try to set up a group to do escalations and they don't seem to be a priority.
The tower wars PVP hours will be, rightly, for the time of peak presence of the guild members, so almost certainly people playing off hours will be cut out of it.
Not a good prospective.
If GW want to attract more than a scattering of not US players that kind of stuff need to be addressed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Far too many hours have been lost to Alpha Centauri...Brother Lal just keeps trying to take over Planet, and if Deirdre goes on about just *one* more sacred tree.......Crusader King and Victoria...These boards are home to plenty of very happy Paradox gamers. My brother and I just finished the first game of Victoria II we've ever played all the way to the end, and we're now starting on Hearts of Iron III, in preparation for learning Hearts of Iron IV on its release next year.
Such amazing bottomless pits of time-loss...
Playing the scientific faction, I suppose? It was my favorite one, together with Deirdree and the cyborgs with the expansion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Playing the scientific faction, I suppose? It was my favorite one, together with Deirdree and the cyborgs with the expansion.Far too many hours have been lost to Alpha Centauri...Brother Lal just keeps trying to take over Planet, and if Deirdre goes on about just *one* more sacred tree.......Crusader King and Victoria...These boards are home to plenty of very happy Paradox gamers. My brother and I just finished the first game of Victoria II we've ever played all the way to the end, and we're now starting on Hearts of Iron III, in preparation for learning Hearts of Iron IV on its release next year.
Such amazing bottomless pits of time-loss...
Sister Miriam, actually. Played more as an empire builder, and not a conqueror, but lord have mercy on the AI if they started a war. All the units you could ever need, spy network second to none, and a flat 25% bonus when attacking? Yeah, that'll do lads.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some questions about the game at MVP level
1: Will we get different animations for crafting? e.g. using a pick axe to harvest a metal node. Remember that a lot of time gets spent doing that when you play
2: Will we get a targeting reticle on the mob you tab to?
3: Will there be "in combat" music?
4: Will any NPCs move? As in, patrolling guards. Or patrolling goblins
5: Will there be any "Let me train you in the ways of war" type voiceovers when you click a training NPC? At the moment, the entire game is mute
I presume the reason for playing - settlement mechanics and tower war - will be working.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No AH in the settlements and they will not be available for several months, at least until we can build them ourself.
No structures to deposit items for other characters.
No structures/chats to try to set up a group to do escalations and they don't seem to be a priority.
...
If GW want to attract more than a scattering of not US players that kind of stuff need to be addressed.
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1) I'm not sure I understand your first point; each crafting Settlement--one-third of all starting Settlements--has an auction house
2) I've missed something here, as well; every starting Settlement has a bank
3) Escalations are generally regarded as not a priority because we're in Alpha, thus it's pointless for all but testing--which is important--but many people haven't the time, and some have told us they don't have the mind-set for it
Finally, there are at least three starting Settlements run from outside the US--two European, one Pacific--and others have notable European and Australian membership, so you've some options there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) I've missed something here, as well; every starting Settlement has a bank2) You missed "other characters." He's looking for a way to (for instance) deposit a finished crafting project in a buyer's account, or deposit coin to pay for a crafting project in the seller's account.
And give stuff gathered by adventuring character to my crafter character and items from the crafter to the adventurer.
Aha! Don't know why that slipped by.
Thanks, Caldeathe, and sorry, Diego.
No problem.
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True, the Crafter settlements have the Ah and the commoner trainer for the skills that increase carrying capacity. So 1/3 of the settlements have a location to trade stuff between the inhabitant.
Basically there is requirement for every guild or alliance to control a crafting settlement.
Moving from corporation to alliance. We live in 0.0?
- * -
Escalations.
Players are giving them low priority ...
Seem a bit strange, but possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So 1/3 of the settlements have a location to trade stuff between the inhabitant. Basically there is requirement for every guild or alliance to control a crafting settlement.
By game design, that's a meaningful choice. There will be downsides to every possible type of settlement in the inability to support certain activities locally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So 1/3 of the settlements have a location to trade stuff between the inhabitant. Basically there is requirement for every guild or alliance to control a crafting settlement.By game design, that's a meaningful choice. There will be downsides to every possible type of settlement in the inability to support certain activities locally.
To be honest I suspect that we will discover that selecting the wrong guild is really easy.
Make that "I will discover that selecting the wrong guild is really easy."
I have already done that experience in EVE, nice people that don't play at the right hours for me or a strong corporation part of a strong alliance that require me to play from 24.00 to 4.00 am or I am useless baggage.
The crafting/market part has kept me hooked for 5 years, but I don't know if I want to repeat the experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest I suspect that we will discover that selecting the wrong guild is really easy.So 1/3 of the settlements have a location to trade stuff between the inhabitant. Basically there is requirement for every guild or alliance to control a crafting settlement.By game design, that's a meaningful choice. There will be downsides to every possible type of settlement in the inability to support certain activities locally.
There is no reason that, should you feel you are in the wrong Organization, that you can't move to a new one. I expect there to be a bit of that happening as we all settle in.
You have to find the place that most closely matches what you want from the game. We are all in that boat. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest I suspect that we will discover that selecting the wrong guild is really easy.
Make that "I will discover that selecting the wrong guild is really easy."
I have already done that experience in EVE, nice people that don't play at the right hours for me or a strong corporation part of a strong alliance that require me to play from 24.00 to 4.00 am or I am useless
Elkhaven took an enormous risk folding into Ozem's. Aside from forcing our Crafters, Rogues, and Wizards to train elsewhere, several of our people wanted a NN or CG lifestyle, which means they are forced to change or can't be members of the settlement (as it stands).
I envision a difficult road for the devs when they get around to trying to enforce this, and a lot of very unhappy people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Added some bit to make it clearer. At least for me, when you enter in a guild, leaving is difficult. "Abandoning" friend and colleagues isn't a easy choice.
Add that while in EVE most of your assets were easily transportable it don't seem it will work that way in PFO (unless we get some very large bag of holding).
In EVE I could put a tower pieces in the hold of a cargo ship and move it away. Here I have to destroy a smallhold and wait 1 month to plant it again in a new location, or I will have to abandon it.
Same thing for all the stuff I have gathered.
I for one appreciate Diego's input and I feel confident the devs do as well.
That confidence a very nice estate we are afforded!
I am unsure of what you mean, to be honest.
I feel confident that the game will be a good one, I only hope that I will be able to enjoy it at its fullest.I am unsure if my limitations will allow that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I for one appreciate Diego's input and I feel confident the devs do as well.
That confidence a very nice estate we are afforded!
I do too.
@ Diego
Please do not take my response as a negation of your concerns or a denial that they are valid. Just trying to let you know that we are all facing choices that affect us in this game.
For myself, the obstacles are what make every choice have some meaning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is one of the reasons I plan to be quite nomadic (at least in the beginning), dont get me wrong, Aragon suits my playing style pretty well, but all-nighters isn't something I can do every week any longer and if I find an Settlement run in EU time that suits my temper and are fun, then I may move...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Diego
Emerald Lodge is European to a high degree. I therefore have exactly this problem in reverse - staying up late to ensure some US members get crafted items from me as I currently play the hub for raw materials, recipes, etc.
Long term this needs a better solution.
For example
/deposit char name
Opening up the vault from another player but only for deposit. Otherwise it could use the same functionality.
You would have to ensure you don't see the inventory and you can't take anything out - and that there are no 'cursed' items that can infect someone's vault. This would go a long way to solve the issue to be online at the same time / same place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In regard to this see Theodums post The Monsters have won
I refer to the last sentence in his post.
I'm not bothering at all before EE but I will be prepared once EE starts to ensure it isn't getting out of hand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elkhaven took an enormous risk folding into Ozem's. Aside from forcing our Crafters, Rogues, and Wizards to train elsewhere, several of our people wanted a NN or CG lifestyle, which means they are forced to change or can't be members of the settlement (as it stands).
I envision a difficult road for the devs when they get around to trying to enforce this, and a lot of very unhappy people.
Although not the main point of your post, I think we can all set aside concerns over Alignment, for a very long time. To be perfectly honest, I don't see them ever putting it in at this point, because it may involve having to rework a lot of the skills, roles, and even settlement choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Though the full powered escalations nearby could be a problem.Think of how easily Emerald Lodge'll find friends to come help them knock down the neighbouring monsters.
If Emerald Lodge continues to keep the Spire open for adventurers, I can see the occasional large force to help clear out any annoying escalation if Emerald Lodge needs help. That is when the Spire becomes available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Although not the main point of your post, I think we can all set aside concerns over Alignment, for a very long time. To be perfectly honest, I don't see them ever putting it in at this point, because it may involve having to rework a lot of the skills, roles, and even settlement choices.Elkhaven took an enormous risk folding into Ozem's. Aside from forcing our Crafters, Rogues, and Wizards to train elsewhere, several of our people wanted a NN or CG lifestyle, which means they are forced to change or can't be members of the settlement (as it stands).
I envision a difficult road for the devs when they get around to trying to enforce this, and a lot of very unhappy people.
I don't know, at think at this point it is something most people are looking forward to. I don't think they have a huge choice in the matter of IF, but when it gets put in, since its a core feature.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Won't the shared company storage solve many of these internal transfer issues?
As for selling / trading between characters of different settlements, the AH will steadily improve in usability. Outside of the auction house, there is intended to be some friction in the process of transferring goods. Moving things from one place to another is an important part of PFO gameplay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Won't the shared company storage solve many of these internal transfer issues?
It would. But I don't think there's been much discussion from the devs about when such a feature will be implemented. Lots of requests naming it mvp, but the devs have been silent on the subject, I think.