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My highest PC is 4. So I've never played the higher level stuff. I know starting off focusing on trip can work. But since I don't know what kind of enemies the higher level stuff has, I don't know if it'll work as well later.
So will it work, or will there be too many untrippable opponents later (too big, flying, etc)?
edit: This question is specifically for PFS, hence the question here.
I've played at the table with a couple of different trip builds. It can be very viable in a lot of scenarios. It will be neutralized against some foes, but make sure your damage is going to be decent anyways so it won't be that big of a deal. The foe will have a little higher AC and more maneuverability than one on the floor, but that's about it.
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Yes.
PFS has a lot of humanoid enemies, and in case of flying creatures use the Dragoncatch Guisarme as your backup weapon.
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Yes.
PFS has a lot of humanoid enemies, and in case of flying creatures use the Dragoncatch Guisarme as your backup weapon.
You were born for this thread! You filthy tripper of every monster I can throw at you :P
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You were born for this thread! You filthy tripper of every monster I can throw at you :PYes.
PFS has a lot of humanoid enemies, and in case of flying creatures use the Dragoncatch Guisarme as your backup weapon.
Not true! I couldn't trip everything you tossed at me, tripping is fairly hard when at -3 hp and unconscious...
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I bet you are even now working to adjust your build so you can trip even then.
Sadly that doesn't come into play until level 7 =[
Not enough spare feat slots for Endurance and Diehard.Edit: creating a trip build generally means devoting those resources :)
The biggest hurdle is the size limitation (and until I fork over enough gold for the Dragoncatch Guisarme also flying creatures) for my lorewarden, the CMB isn't the issue, in general I can expect to trip most stuff easily, and overcoming the CMD becomes easier as I levelup.
Very. PFS is brimming with humanoids and isn't as fly happy as most home games I think.
You should have a high str score and a big weapon, so you have a built in plan B>
Yes.
In the case of the optimized Lorewarden build, yes to the point of sparking the eternal PFS debate: Just because you can break the game, do you really want to? I haven't personally found this build much fun to play with or gm for, the effective CR for most PFS encounters becomes trivial with all the foes debilitated.
On the rare occasion where this PC is unable to control the battlefield, you still have a power attacking THF Fighter with reach and a high strength.. not exactly the end of the world
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Any other tips would be great. I've got a Magus trip build that's at level 2 right now, but I'm looking to start leveling her soon. The Glaive is a nice find. It's troublesome for my build, since it 's a Kapenia Dancer and trades out Martial Weapon Proficiency for Bladed Scarf. Mainly, I'm looking at Wand Wielder Arcana, a Wand of Blade Lash (20 foot reach, a free trip attempt, AND +10 to the attack!), and Enlarge Person at higher levels. I'll also either keep a casting of True Strike memorized or more likely carry a wand of it, too, for the opponents that are particularly tough to trip, or for when I decide Disarm is a better tactic.
I've seen a few opponents that can't be tripped in PFS, starting around tier 5-6 (if you don't count swarms), so I'm definitely going to be sure to have some Shocking Grasps and other ways to deal damage on hand, too.
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I'm turning my lorewarden into a knowledge monkey next to being efficient with tripping.
Being able to spend 8 skillpoints per level is quite nice, 1 goes into diplomacy (which, thanks to additional traits: clever wordplay and freedom fighter is a class skill and uses my int modifier), the rest into knowledge skills.
I'm still doubting over going for the Student of War prestige class or not.
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I see a lot of flowing monk trip builders.
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Here is the very basic mechanical outline I'm using for my current tripper in PFS.
He's reasonably balanced other than being about as likable as malaria. He's been quite enjoyable so far despite actually tripping something like 1 foe in 5xp earned. He's going to be my primary Emerald Spire character I think.
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Combat Reflexes + Improved Unarmed Strike + Vicious Stomp
Combined with...
Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Greater Trip
"I full attack and replace my last attack to trip you! As you go down, you provoke from everyone around you, including me! Also, now that you're prone, you provoke from me...yes, again!"
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My tripper is a Flowing Monk / Monk of the Sacred mountain. At level 8 he can't be moved except by teleport magic once he sets his feet in place, and he can trip and ki throw anyone who isn't flying (he can spend ki points for larger opponents). With an Enlarge Person potion he threatens a huge area and can control a sizeable portion of the battlefield. He also has improved disarm and a good flurry for opponents that can't be tripped or that keep fighting even while prone.
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That's a very similar build to mine Robert.
Except I started with 16 str, 14 int and took additional traits to get:
Heirloom Weapon (Guisarme) Adventurer's Armory +2 to trip (equipment trait)
Skilled Wordplay Pathfinder Society Primer Intelligence for diplomacy (social trait)
Freedom Fighter (Andoran) Pirates of the Inner sea +2 diplomacy and diplomacy class skill. -2 when dealing with slavers instead (regional trait)
Indomitable Faith (Milani) Advanced Players Guide +1 will save (faith trait)
Vicious Stomp isn't going to work for reach trippers, because the target must be adjacent in order to stomp, so I'm not going to take that route.
I like using a fauchard on my sohei monk. Still a trip weapon with an 18-20 crit range. Definitely worth the feat. Haven't gotten high enough that I can flurry with it, which will be around 6th level. That'll be such a sweet level to hit. Trip 'em to start the flurry then enjoy the +4 bonus to hit for the rest of my strikes. Once I get Greater Trip, it'll be like a free trip attempt at the start of each flurry.
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My previous character who tripped used a fauchard, although he didn't have any of the tripping feats, just a big strength and a reach weapon. Due to changes in heirloom weapon it looks less exciting than it used to.
If I had known about the flying tripping guisarme thingy I might have built this guy with that instead.
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Checking my records Gyre -16 appears to have GM credit from The Confirmation and Master of the Fallen Fortress, prior to playing Emerald Spire 2- The Cellars
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Just remember, your sthick won't always work, and even if it does try to vary things up a bit. Remember, variety is the spice of life.
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Yes.
PFS has a lot of humanoid enemies, and in case of flying creatures use the Dragoncatch Guisarme as your backup weapon.
Unfortunately this weapon is not PFS legal.
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All specific magic weapons on pages 150-163, except bastard's sting, blade of the rising sun, blade of the sword-saint, cutthroat's apprentice, dagger of doubling, dragoncatch guisarme, earthenflail, hellscourge, lash of the howler, nine lives stealer, pistol of the infinite sky, polarity hammer, spider's fang, and ten-ring sword, are legal
Good catch Kigvan.
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I was going for a trip build on my bard/archaeologist, with a single level of lore warden and single level of mysterious stranger.
It worked fantastically for the first 5 odd levels, and then completely, completely choked when I was having to roll around a minimum 15 (usually closer to 17) to succeed on a trip.
The archaeologist doesn't have a full BAB (though the lore warden and gunslinger levels did) and I didn't have the 3rd level maneuver mastery from lore warden to get an additional +2, but I was close, and by that point it clearly didn't matter, and I was forced to get an expensive retrain.
I can't see a more full-on tripping build doing much better; I could only find around another +3 to CMB if I invested in it more to upgrade it from now-very-weak to weak. Forget the serpents, quadrupeds and flyers you come across.
More details here.
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I completely overlooked that =[
Damnit. I wonder what story is behind that thing to get it banned (or just too powerful to be able to trip flying creatures?)
Ah well, guess I'll just go with improved reposition and tactical reposition for those pesky flyers.
Maybe they didn't want to wonder if monsters had wings?
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I was going for a trip build on my bard/archaeologist, with a single level of lore warden and single level of mysterious stranger.
It worked fantastically for the first 5 odd levels, and then completely, completely choked when I was having to roll around a minimum 15 (usually closer to 17) to succeed on a trip.
The archaeologist doesn't have a full BAB (though the lore warden and gunslinger levels did) and I didn't have the 3rd level maneuver mastery from lore warden to get an additional +2, but I was close, and by that point it clearly didn't matter, and I was forced to get an expensive retrain.
I can't see a more full-on tripping build doing much better; I could only find around another +3 to CMB if I invested in it more to upgrade it from now-very-weak to weak. Forget the serpents, quadrupeds and flyers you come across.
More details here.
My Archeologist Bard is level 16 and still manages to trip things, though it's by no means guaranteed. Greater Trip makes all the difference, because when she does pull it off it usually means 2 - 3 AoOs from the big hitters.
She's at +35ish buffed, which pales in comparison to a decent Lore Warden build--but still manages to pull down enemies at her level fairly regularly (assuming they're able to be tripped at all).
+12 BAB
+3 Str
+4 Dex (Fury's Fall)
+4 Improved + Greater Trip
+2 Insight (dusty rose prism ioun stone)
+1 Competence (cracked pale green prism ioun stone)
+1 Enhancement (+1 whip)
+1 Weapon Focus (whip)
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+28 unbuffed
+3 Luck (Archeologist's Luck)
+4 Morale (Greater Heroism)
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+35 buffed
Am I the only one to use a whip to trip people?
15 feet of tripping space.
Improved Whip Mastery for 10ft area of threaten.
Option to do non lethal when you do not want to kill but still need to hurt (I am assuming you take whip mastery, why wouldn't you?)
Option to disarm when tripping is not possible.My level 4 Kensai Bladebound Magus has a to trip of +9 right now with his black blade whip, +10 if I burn an arcane pool point.
By level 6 he should have at least a +15 (18 dex[weapon finesse], arcana for trip mastery, +2 whip, Dusty Rose Prism in wayfinder, WF whip), +17 if I burn a pool point. With some luck, I also hope to have a Dex belt, pushing it to +16/+18.
No, I have a player using a very similar build to you. Not PFS though. It's not a bad build, honestly. Just a little feat intensive.
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I went for the Guisarme to avoid the feat tax for a whip :).
+5 strength (base 18 + 2 belt)
+4 dexterity (base 16 + 2 belt) (via Fury's Fall)
+2 trait (heirloom weapon: guisarme)
+4 feat (improved and greater trip)
+6 class (lorewarden bonus)
+2 focus (greater weapon focus: guisarme)
+4 weapontraining (2 from class + 2 from gloves of dueling)
+6 weapon (+2 enhancement, +4 luck from dueling enchantment)
+2 competence (Brown Thorny Ioun stone)
+2 insight (resonance power of the Dusty Rose Prism Ioun stone)
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+48
Total cost of the equipment 56250
+20 from true strike 1/day with a Ring of Serene Contortions (1200 gp)
Pray for a bard with bardic performance in the group for additional boosts, and someone who can cast enlarge person so creatures of size huge can be tripped (or spend 50 gp/fight for potions of enlarge person) and for an additional +1 to CMB
So with the bard (+3) and enlarge person (+1) it's +52 to CMB with once per day the option to go for +72
We're level 17 now, and recently I can only trip every 4th opponent or so. Too many monsters are too large, flying, have no legs, ...
On the other hand I recently shut down an anti-paladin's melee power completely by tripping him (being enlarged with 20ft reach).
The good thing if you're a fighter you will have enough feats to have some other tricks up your sleeve.
My other specialty are criticals - did I mention that I hate oozes? ;)
I went for the Guisarme to avoid the feat tax for a whip :).
** spoiler omitted **
how can you put dueling on a non-finesse guisarme?
My next melee dude is gonna be a Aberrant bloodline bloodrager with whirlwind attack and greater trip. Gonna Pick primalist archtype to get strength surge at 12. With lunge and longarm Spell he will be funny even if greater trip pehaps dosent work with whirlwind attack.
I think a trip built is viable but it shouldent be the only trick a PC have.
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how can you put dueling on a non-finesse guisarme?I went for the Guisarme to avoid the feat tax for a whip :).
** spoiler omitted **
By using this version of Dueling:
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Price +1 bonus
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Description
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A dueling weapon bears magical enhancements that makes it particularly effective at performing certain combat maneuvers. When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus to the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver.
The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder's CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers. These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers, but not bull rush, grapple, or overrun maneuvers. If you're using the additional combat maneuvers in the Advanced Player's Guide, this also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition combat maneuvers, but not drag or steal combat maneuvers. Note that this luck bonus stacks with the weapon's enhancement bonus, which in and of itself adds to CMB checks normally
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Construction
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Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cat's grace
As for that level, yeah lots of monsters are going to be way too big. Flying creatures (who use wings to fly) can be tackled with the Dragoncatch Guisarme in non-PFS games though. That's also why trip is much stronger in PFS, as that only goes to 12, and lots of enemies will be humanoid npc's.
By using this version of Dueling:
** spoiler omitted **
Thanks for the info - I'm envious!
I was thinking of making a Slayer with a whip that focused on tripping. Theres alot of good info here!
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I have a level 13 Whipmaster specializing in Tripping. (Went through Eyes of Ten.) I have been told it is over powered, despite being told when I first created the character that trip builds were under powered.
I was threatening out 10 feet, able to take up to 5 AoOs a round and when I did trip things (with my +30 something to trip attempts) it caused them to provoke AoOs from everyone threatening them (Frequently the party Barbarian.) I was sometimes taking those AoOs myself to either Disarm or strike for damage with my +1 Holy Adamantine Stinging Whip.
I also got myself a Titanic Breastplate so I could enlarge and count as bigger. When enlarged I was able to trip size Gargantuan and in fact DID trip a T-Rex with a roll of an 8 on the die.
I've been having mixed experiences with Trip in a homebrew game where the DM seems very enthusiastic about flying and swimming foes. When Trip works it is absolutely fantastic though. I think it can be worthwhile as long as you have a backup plan or just intend to use Trip as a special tactic to devastate vulnerable foes.
@Damanta - Does the Dragoncatch Guisarme actually trip flying opponents and make them prone, or does it just force them to land and give them the entangled condition? If the latter can you actually trip them to the prone state with a second attempt?
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I've been having mixed experiences with Trip in a homebrew game where the DM seems very enthusiastic about flying and swimming foes. When Trip works it is absolutely fantastic though. I think it can be worthwhile as long as you have a backup plan or just intend to use Trip as a special tactic to devastate vulnerable foes.
@Damanta - Does the Dragoncatch Guisarme actually trip flying opponents and make them prone, or does it just force them to land and give them the entangled condition? If the latter can you actually trip them to the prone state with a second attempt?
They way I'm reading the item, is that it causes a creature with wings to tangle it's wings, falling to the ground (prone) and gaining the entangled condition.
However I can see others only going for the entangled condition because it's not specifically stated that they are prone. That is where the falling rules come into play:
Falling: When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See Falling Damage for more details.)
So with a deliberate fall you are allowed a DC 15 acrobatics check to avoid ending up prone unless you take damage. A non-deliberate fall doesn't allow a DC 15 acrobatics check and thus you end up prone.
I'd considered the rules for taking damage when falling. If the creature were flying less than 10 feet off the ground it would take no damage though.
I also wonder whether a creature with a Fly speed needs to stand up from the prone position before beginning to fly again. If not would leaving the prone position by flying give threatening opponents an AoO?
666bender mentioned tripping with a Cavalier, and it is true that an animal companion or improved familiar with the valet archetype can make a great buddy for tripping foes.
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Devilkiller: true, less than 10 ft would mean no damage.
As far as I am concerned the flying creature doesn't need to leave the prone position to start flying again, it'll provoke from moving however (unless succesful acrobatics check to avoid that).
Ofcourse it could stay where it is, but then it'll get the prone penalties or provoke for standing up.
I've seen the trip Magus in play. My girlfriend's PC a few games back was a half-orc who gained whip proficiency via some trait or another. She liked casting True Strike and then tripping people with a +20 bonus. I wasn't really that put out as a DM, but some of the other players complained about how much her PC could accomplish during a round.
I'm not sure if it was related, but when some players from the same group started a new campaign Magus was one of the banned classes.