A monk / Rogue multiclass has a HUGE problem; really low BAB (Base Attack Bonus). If you want something similar to that multiclass, you can try Brawler. If you want a knife-throwing expert, you can try Swashbuckler with the Flying Blade archetype.
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Or going slayer, as it has sneak attack an extra feats.
So a warning, if you haven't been on here much.
THE COLLECTIVE WE hate rogues. We feel that overall, anything you want to do with a rogue can be done better with a different class.
WE also don't like monk very much, as again we feel that most of what it does can be done better by someone else.
Thus the multi-class between the two puts it into VERY BAD by the WE.
Also you post is kinda unclear about what you're wanting your character to do. Being more clear of what you're trying to accomplish with your multiclass will help us answer you question better.
What is it that you're wanting/trying to do? What is the character idea? Are you just wanting a two-weapon combatant that has sneak attack? Does he wear heavy or light armor? What are you taking the rogue/ninja levels for? what are you wanting to get from them? What are the fighter levels for? what are you wanting to get from them?
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Ninja is very much like a rogue/monk hybrid. It has Ki, boosts to acrobatics and other things like a monk, and you can take rogue talents to give you things similar to a monk like unarmed strike and so forth. It's a better class than the rogue, especially if you have time to craft your own poisons with Craft(alchemy).
You don't have to listen to the Six Degrees of Bash the Rogue players. Rogue/Monk works really well, and the combination has quite a bit of synergy. /Monk2 gains...
+3 to all saves
Flurry of Blows, or Two-Weapon Fighting But Better
full BAB in a flurry, so there's really no BAB loss for multiclassing
Improved Unarmed Strike and two more bonus feats
It's a pretty sweet deal.
-Matt
Or go brawler, you don't get the big will save, but you can wear armor and not need your dex/wis to be as high. You can be any alignment (if that matters, a lawful rogue seems kind of different). Access to flexible feats. You get the better two-weapon fighting, but your bab isn't lower when not using a flurry. you get extra feats and can get fighter feasts. Bonuses to maneuvers etc..
Also you can trade out martial flexibility for sneak attack.
Or go slayer, full BAB, gets sneak attack and can get two-weapon fighting without needing pre-reqs just like the monk. Studied target to up accuracy and damage. And you can wear medium armor. You can get any of the good rogue tricks you want and trapfinding.
Or..., or..., or...
I could go on and list different classes that do basically the same thing as a rogue. These just do the rogue/monk thing all in one.
The problem with Rogue/Monk is that it doesn't help remove the full-attack reliance you have. I could see a Scout Rogue X/Monk 3 with Monastic Legacy using Pummeling Charge on unarmed attacks though. That would be a pretty good build - huge sneak attack, flurry, what you may have it.
You could even go Kata Master Monk and Scout Ninja with good CHA for even more sneakyness.
You don't have to listen to the Six Degrees of Bash the Rogue players. Rogue/Monk works really well, and the combination has quite a bit of synergy. /Monk2 gains...
+3 to all saves
Flurry of Blows, or Two-Weapon Fighting But Better
full BAB in a flurry, so there's really no BAB loss for multiclassing
Improved Unarmed Strike and two more bonus featsIt's a pretty sweet deal.
-Matt
This is not a good combo. It might work at your table, but it wont work at most tables without the GM catering to the player and/or the player being a really good optimizer.
I Will join the "what do you want the character to do?" crowd.
There is a brawler AT that gain sneek attack, i Think, if that is the plan.
So ehhh, what's the purpose here? If you're going to be using daggers losing 1 point or more off your already abysmal to-hit doesn't seem like a solid plan.
General advice on Rogues, Monks, and ESPECIALLY a mix of the two: Don't touch it unless you really know what you're doing. Both mechanics/character building-wise, and an exact vision of what you want to do.
Chances are as well you can get everything you want from this multiclass and more from other classes. Something like Monk 1/Slayer X would give you a similar effect with higher to-hit/damage, more Feats (prerequisite-less!), roughly the same skills, and Perfect Strike.
Ok, so everyone is going on about BAB loss, so why don't we just...take multiples of 4 for class levels? No BAB loss.
Yeah, you loose some combat utility but you become a damn good skill monkey.
Chances are as well you can get everything you want from this multiclass and more from other classes. Something like Monk 1/Slayer X would give you a similar effect with higher to-hit/damage, more Feats (prerequisite-less!), roughly the same skills, and Perfect Strike.
a Sanctified Slayer might fill that niche a bit better, the Wisdom synergy would work well, and hey, spells.
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Ok, so everyone is going on about BAB loss, so why don't we just...take multiples of 4 for class levels? No BAB loss.
Yeah, you loose some combat utility but you become a damn good skill monkey.
Because by the time you have 4 levels in both classes you've gimped yourself hardcore in both as well.
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I am getting on the train with question what is the purpose of this character? What do you want it to do?
The concept of a monk rogue is mechanically fairly poor, with what is generally considered to be the two weakest classes in the game.
Tell us your concept and we can help you build a character that achieves it and is mechanically strong. Don't just feel that you need to be saddled with class names and the mechanics that come along with it.
The slayer is every bit the roguish chap that a rogue is. The brawler is every bit the MMA fighter the monk is. But there are some important mechanical differences that make the former mechanically superior than the later, and will most likely lead to a more pleasing character to play.
Because by the time you have 4 levels in both classes you've gimped yourself hardcore in both as well.Ok, so everyone is going on about BAB loss, so why don't we just...take multiples of 4 for class levels? No BAB loss.
Yeah, you loose some combat utility but you become a damn good skill monkey.
What can you do with a level 20 Rogue that you can't with a level 16?
What can you do with a level 20 Rogue that you can't with a level 16?Because by the time you have 4 levels in both classes you've gimped yourself hardcore in both as well.Ok, so everyone is going on about BAB loss, so why don't we just...take multiples of 4 for class levels? No BAB loss.
Yeah, you loose some combat utility but you become a damn good skill monkey.
Thats a bad question since most people rarely play to those levels. Though the answer to your question is: Use Master Strike which can be a powerful ability, as most 20th level capstone abilities are.
The better question is what can a 12th level rogue do that an 8th level can't? An even better question is what can a 12th level slayer do that a 12th level rogue can't? The obvious answer is: Actually hit something.
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I'll agree with Mattastrophic that concept isn't too bad if you know what you are doing. For a fresh pathfinder, it would be better not to touch it to not get disappointed.
I'll also agree that first question should be what you wish to play? Classes have names like "rogue", "slayer", etc., but it means fairly little in general until you check them out.
Adam
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i want to make a dex based brawler and 6 level dip in rogue knife master seems fun and get twf feats free neutral alignment was panther style lightning or wind stance or possibly dragon style ?
Just make a single class Snakebite Striker Brawler. You get all the benefit of rogue (sneak attack) and you'll have a much better to hit.
i want to make a dex based brawler and 6 level dip in rogue knife master seems fun and get twf feats free neutral alignment was panther style lightning or wind stance or possibly dragon style ?
So let me make sure I understand what you're wanting here...
You want to make a dex based "brawler". By this I can only assume you mean someone who fights with their fists?
Secondarily you also want to add in the ability to use knives?
And you want to TWF?
And have neutral, or possibly any, alignment?
The dex based part is difficult to do with punches. There is probably a way to do it...but I don't really know it.
Snakebite Brawler works pretty well to accomplish everything else though. You get flurry, which works like TWF. However, you can flurry with weapon in the close group which includes daggers. You also have effective punches from the class. You will gain Sneak Attack (which you seem to be after) though don't state it explicitly.
The Snakebite Brawler seems like exactly what you want, we just need to figure out a way to allow you to get dex to damage with your fists and you would be all set.
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i want to make a dex based brawler and 6 level dip in rogue knife master seems fun and get twf feats free neutral alignment was panther style lightning or wind stance or possibly dragon style ?So let me make sure I understand what you're wanting here...
You want to make a dex based "brawler". By this I can only assume you mean someone who fights with their fists?
Secondarily you also want to add in the ability to use knives?
And you want to TWF?
And have neutral, or possibly any, alignment?
The dex based part is difficult to do with punches. There is probably a way to do it...but I don't really know it.
Snakebite Brawler works pretty well to accomplish everything else though. You get flurry, which works like TWF. However, you can flurry with weapon in the close group which includes daggers. You also have effective punches from the class. You will gain Sneak Attack (which you seem to be after) though don't state it explicitly.
The Snakebite Brawler seems like exactly what you want, we just need to figure out a way to allow you to get dex to damage with your fists and you would be all set.
Amulet of Mighty Fists with Agile enchantment. Agile enchantment on his daggers too. Sadly, that's the only way unless they allow some sort of "Improved Weapon Finesse" that gives Dex to Damage with Finesse weapons, or Mythic Weapon Finesse.
i want to wear light armor and trying to find best fighter for this want go focus on keeping from acquiring dex bonus if possible so dazzling display and shatter defenses. i want to use sneak attack is much as possible and try not to use to constant vanish trick. im really lost when it comes to feats im more of an archer but tryiny to change it up
Check my Brawler guide. In the sample builds section, there's a Snakebite Striker based on the first part of your description.
And by the way, Monk/Rogue is not a bad combo if you know what you are doing.
Pummeling Charge and Skirmisher synergize extremely well.
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Amulet of Mighty Fists with Agile enchantment. Agile enchantment on his daggers too. Sadly, that's the only way unless they allow some sort of "Improved Weapon Finesse" that gives Dex to Damage with Finesse weapons, or Mythic Weapon Finesse.
Four levels of the Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler will do it. Dex to Damage on ALL weapons you can use Swashbucklers Finesse with.
i want to make a dex based brawler and 6 level dip in rogue knife master seems fun and get twf feats free neutral alignment was panther style lightning or wind stance or possibly dragon style ?i want to wear light armor and trying to find best fighter for this want go focus on keeping from acquiring dex bonus if possible so dazzling display and shatter defenses. i want to use sneak attack is much as possible and try not to use to constant vanish trick. im really lost when it comes to feats im more of an archer but tryiny to change it up
Looking at your other post too. You want a dexed based melee person who wears light armor and focuses on sneak attack. You like the idea of two-weapon fighting as it will give you more attacks. You want dazzling diplsay and shatter defenses, or some other way to let you get sneak attack off without flanking.
Okay people I'm pretty sure here's what he wants.
With that in mind. I suggest going snakebite striker brawler for 2 levels, getting you a sneak attack and TWF. Then a level, two or three of ninja, then going the rest slayer.
My other suggestion is to go 1-3 levels of ninja and the rest slayer.
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Four levels of the Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler will do it. Dex to Damage on ALL weapons you can use Swashbucklers Finesse with.
Amulet of Mighty Fists with Agile enchantment. Agile enchantment on his daggers too. Sadly, that's the only way unless they allow some sort of "Improved Weapon Finesse" that gives Dex to Damage with Finesse weapons, or Mythic Weapon Finesse.
Is that so? Very good to know; Thanks Imbicatus!
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i want to make a dex based brawler and 6 level dip in rogue knife master seems fun and get twf feats free neutral alignment was panther style lightning or wind stance or possibly dragon style ?
Why is knife Master fun on some one that, presumebly, use his fists to figth? Panther and dragon style is not gonna do anything for a knife figther and knife Master is Gimping your self if you want to figth with the fists.
Snakebite brawler is not a bad suggestion.But i suggest that you stop looking at the rules and think about the character you want to play outside the rules. That way you can get a more clear picture of it, and then try to fit it in to the rules after.
Edit: also in my book Knife Master dosent get TWF for free.
Sigh, you must be slow, Cap. Darling. Clearly OP is playing Edward Scissorhands.
Sigh, you must be slow, Cap. Darling. Clearly OP is playing Edward Scissorhands.
That just need skill focus( hairdresser)
Use Punching Daggers, they are close weapons so their damage scales with brawler level.
If I may make a recommendation, I recommend going Half-Orc (might be fun, considering you were attacked by orcs). This is because it's favored class bonus allows you to increase your effective Brawler level for the purpose of unarmed damage. That way, you can take 16 levels in Brawler while having the unarmed damage of a level 20 Brawler. Why is this important? Because it also increases your damage with close weapons as mentioned above. Don't you want to be the guy using punching daggers that deal 2d6 damage?
Other recommendations:
- A cool build is going Snakebite Striker, because thanks to your Slayer level, you can take Slayer's Feint to feint with Acrobatics (which is based on DEX) and not Bluff (which is based on CHA). This makes you excellent at feinting and dealing Sneak Attack damage.
- Another nice build is using the fact that the Brawler counts as a fighter for feats, letting you take Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses and then you can take Deadly Stroke (tons of damage), Violent Display (free Dazzling Display every time you deal Sneak Attack damage) and other cool stuff like: Disheartening Display (may make enemies frightened with Dazzling Display), Dastardly Finish (may coup-de-grace cowering enemies) and Merciless Butchery (which lets you coup-de-grace as a swift action... remember that as a Brawler you can use Knockout to make an enemy unconscious in short order). Considering the Sneak Attack requirements of these feats, you are better off with Snakebite Striker too.
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with 20 pt buy his stats are
str11
dex16
con14
int10
wis11
chr10
How is that a 20pt buy? I count 12 points.
Unless you mean before your human racial bonus - in which case it's still only a 17 point buy.
Try this -
str10
dex19
con14
int10
wis12
chr10
Now there's a 20 pt buy. It'll be a bit weak for a couple of levels until you can pick up either a weapon or an amulet with Agile, but actually starting with some sneak attack (with Snakebite Striker archetype) will help to counteract that.
Frankly though - it sounds like you'd be better off going straight brawler with the Snakebite Striker archetype, as they get sneak attack etc, without the disadvantages of multiclassing.
You are gonna spend a move action for studied target and Will only get +2. That is ok at level 5 but sucks at 15.
I Think a swashbuckler sounds like it would fit your concept fine. Level to damage from level 3.
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Well there's Urban Barbarian for Dex but the bigger issue here is that unless he plans to go to level 40 or something taking all these random classes is more than likely going to end up with him as an ineffective hodgepodge of barely complementary classes.
Pehaps it is time to make a new build advice thread if you have left the rogue/ monk for a barbarian. Is it still a knife figther? Why is he aiming for greater grabble?
It Would be cool if there was some kind of viable Rogue/Monk build but they just don't go together because of BAB as people have mentioned, but that also doesn't mean that you can't make it work. The rogue and monk are amongst the very popular, that's why they have so much controversy. I personally think the Rogue is a good utility class, they got good skills and they're not bad in combat. If you're looking to multiclass, the best suited is a Warrior class type that has full BAB like Brawler, Slayer, Swashbuckler if you're looking to stretch in combat. With Snakebite Striker, Improved Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint can get crazy if you strap a Rogue to it's back with Knife Master/Scout. Sap Adept and Sap Master, Great Cleave and Improved Surprise Follow Through might also help with that.
There was an old 3.5 feat that enabled Rogue Monks really well.. Ascetic Monk, was it?
Of course, nowadays, the problems are more related to BAB.
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IMO, the best Rogue/Monk is a single class Slayer choosing the Irori Faithful Combat ranger style.
You have full bab, Monastic Legacy for unarmed damage progression without any monk levels, Studied Target, full access to brawling armor, sneak attack, trapfinding, and rogue talents.