When was it said we won't get a second draft?
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Apparently there's been over 200 posts since last I looked in, and for some reason when I use the search function it's not showing me posts I know are (were?) there before, so apologies if any of these have been answered in the interim:
Do we know if:
1 - Can Metamagic feats affect blasts/talents? (Force Blast + Toppling Spell would be a nice combo)
2 - Can Telekinetic Haul be used on a willing creature (other than self) as well as an object? If not, can it be used on an object that a creature is standing on top of?
3 - Would racial alternative traits that affect elemental/ish bloodline powers/spells also apply to Wild Talents and Blasts? For example:
Some dwarves’ affinity for the earth grants them greater powers. Dwarves with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the earth descriptor or using granted powers of the Earth domain, the bloodline powers of the earth elemental bloodline, and revelations of the oracle’s stone mystery. This ability does not give them early access to level-based powers; it only affects the powers they could use without this ability. This racial trait replaces stonecunning.
(emphasis mine)
Thanks!
There are two conclusions I have reached so far via this class and this thread (beside liking it):
1) The class could use 4+Int skill points, and a boost on to-hit with blast - though how is uncertain.
2) When people get upset that the burn mechanic exists, I feel like a good portion of them don't actually like the class as a concept, and instead are looking for something they can crack open like an egg - because burn presents a good means to prevent that. Is burn a good thing? No, and it's not supposed to be - but it is an interesting and unique way to handle something like this. Unique is good. If the burn mechanic makes you hate this class, then clearly this class isn't for you. There are plenty of other options that can be bent to whatever GM-twitch-inducing purpose you want. =P
This is just my opinion based interpretation. I just hope people can be reasonable, and let the limitation exist. It must.
I don't need another class getting banned from games, PFS or otherwise (I'm looking at Summoner - particularly Synthesist).
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Honestly, I don't really have any problem with the Burn thing. The thing people are missing is you're not supposed to take any burn, beyond your Feel the Burn cap, at least. The class is set up, I believe, assuming the following:
1) You will have form/substance specializations that, when combined with the move action Burn reduction, will cover any attack you make other than Composite Blasts (at least until the endgame when all you're using are Composite Blasts with Move actions and Composite Specialization).
2) You will start the day accepting Burn equal to your level's Feel the Burn cap by buffing your special defense and/or Kinetic Form
3) The non-attack abilities that cost Burn are not intended to be used much, if at all. Slick is supposed to be a "you can do this all day, but it eats your actions" Grease. The option to extend it is basically a trap. Same with Water Manipulator, Spark of Life, etc.. Flame Shield, Jagged Flesh, Shimmering Mirage, etc. meanwhile, are intended to be treated like the all-day defense buffs for Feel the Burn.
4) Feel the Burn is a roundabout way to grant a portion of Constitution to hit/damage and defense buffs without making Kineticists especially tougher than other d8 classes. I bet that if you compare HP for typical d8 Classes and the effective HP of Kineticists spending excatly their Feel the BUrn level of Burn each morning across various levels, you'll find they end up with similar numbers.
5) Kinetic Healer is special--it's a resource extender. You can really make your party last longer, and make sure everyone is fully healed for the next day, as long as your blast averages more damage than your party's level (which it always should unless you're multi-classing).
Again, everything is very cleverly set up so that you are only taking Burn at the beginning of the day or during the ultimate, obvious "Boss Fight" when you whip out your Composite and/or Metakinetic Blasts (other than Empowered, which you are basically always using).
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You see clever, I see unnecessary.
If you're not supposed to take Burn, it shouldn't be a mechanic.
On 1: Which is a bad option, because the damage does not keep up to any par without Burn.
On 2: If the intent is for the class to HAVE to utilize Feel the Burn to be effective, you may as well just add a clause saying "The Kineticist reduces his HP per day by his character level (increasing to 2x and 3x at X and Y levels" because that's what it amounts to. Cut out the middle man.
On 3: If you can use the words "trap" in reference to an option provided, it is an option that is not needed.
On 4: If the intent was that, then having Con be their "caster stat" was a bonehead move in the first place. Having a class favor a stat and then building in a mechanic intended to make that stat less desirable is poor design. It is the equivalent of imparting a Will save penalty on all Wisdom based classes, or a penalty to Iniative for characters with high Dex to "not make them especially better than other classes at a thing".
Though, you are correct on that:
By level 10, most d8 classes will have 8+5*9+3*9 (16 Con) HP, not factoring in FCBs and Feats. That's 80 HP.
A Kineticist of the same level will substitute in a Con modifier of around 6. So, 110 HP. -30 for Feel the Burn's cap of 3, and 80 HP.
Which is ridiculous. A class with double the investment in Constitution should NOT have the same amount of HP as the baseline class. Again, Monks don't gain a scaling Will save penalty for every point of Ki they spend to put them on par with a Fighter. The Kineticist should not receive a scaling HP penalty to put them on par with a Bard.
Non-lethal damage from Burn should be limited to the equivalent spell level of the infusion that grants the burn.
I also think that the equivalent spell level of the blast should default to the spell level of the base blast, or that of the Infusion that modifies it, whichever is higher.
So, come 10th level, your base blast is treated as a 5th level spell, so if you use a Burning Infusion, it's still treated as a 5th level spell, not a 1st level spell.
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Maybe, perhaps, the infusions should act as spell level increases? Kind of like metamagic, only there is no limit on how high a level you can increase your blast.
So, at 16th level, you can use Explosion + Burning Infusion to modify your Blasts effective spell level by +10, giving you an 18th level spell. Each point of burn on such a spell deals 18 points of damage.
This means that, sometimes you will take more damage than your level than the current burn system, but, at the same time, you can also take less damage too.
Kind of just random ideas popping into my head here, sorry if it's a little confusing.
But, other classes don't get a +6 to hit, +6 to damage, and +6 shield. Or 16 DR. Or 75% miss chance vs ranged weapons, a very attractive option on a class with inherent range. Yes, you drop down to normal class health levels when you max FtB, but you basically treat that investment in Con as now being a massive +6 hit / +12 dmg (remember, con adds once for con and once for the FtB) and a major defense ability for the health you have left. So instead of Barbarian level health, you have rogue health with potentially way better ways to keep said health.
Of all the things that can be said of burn and of the damage and accuracy of this class... FtB is worth every point I sink into it, if I get a lasting benefit out of the burn as well.
There are a few classes which can get many of those things...and at the same time as well.
Al of the 3/4 BaB classes get nifty stuff. Many get Medium armor and Shield proficiency (armor advantage: Gone).
Many get proficiency with the Longbow (damage advantage: gone).
Many also get ways to raise their attack/damage significantly (damage advantage: left in teh dust and laughed at by its peers).
The DR is a trap as well, honestly.
To get 16 DR you need to (besides being level 20) eat 5 points of Burn. That's not counting any other Burn you need to spend that day.
16 damage off each hit is nice, but when the Inquisitor can cast Stoneskin by level 10 (when you're sitting at DR 5/Adamantine and need 5 Burn to even GET THERE), it's wimpy.
The class compares unfavorably to the Inquisitor in a lot of ways, actually.
I'll take a longbow Full Attack over a single hit at like 5d6+5 any day of the week. Throw in Stoneskin (Earth's DR Adamantine), Bane (Feel the Burn+), Judgement (now you're just sad), and spells (emulating many if not all of the other Element loked abilities) and the Kineticist doesn't come out looking so hot.
Certainly not hot enough to need Burn to negate its one advantage over that class (HP).
You see clever, I see unnecessary.
If you're not supposed to take Burn, it shouldn't be a mechanic.
On 1: Which is a bad option, because the damage does not keep up to any par without Burn.
On 2: If the intent is for the class to HAVE to utilize Feel the Burn to be effective, you may as well just add a clause saying "The Kineticist reduces his HP per day by his character level (increasing to 2x and 3x at X and Y levels" because that's what it amounts to. Cut out the middle man.
On 3: If you can use the words "trap" in reference to an option provided, it is an option that is not needed.
I agree with you in theory, but in practice, including bad choices is a core aspect of 3rd edition's design. Every class has options that are terrible. Most feats are terrible. It's designed that way on purpose. Played optimally, you only take burn in the morning for your day long buffs and for composite blasts in boss fights. But people are given the option to play less optimally--you don't see Fighters being forced to take Iron Will, Rogues barred from dual wielding, or Magi being restricted to using only whips, prehensile hair, and 18-20/x2 crit weapons.
On 4: If the intent was that, then having Con be their "caster stat" was a bonehead move in the first place. Having a class favor a stat and then building in a mechanic intended to make that stat less desirable is poor design. It is the equivalent of imparting a Will save penalty on all Wisdom based classes, or a penalty to Iniative for characters with high Dex to "not make them especially better than other classes at a thing".
Though, you are correct on that:
By level 10, most d8 classes will have 8+5*9+3*9 (16 Con) HP, not factoring in FCBs and Feats. That's 80 HP.
A Kineticist of the same level will substitute in a Con modifier of around 6. So, 110 HP. -30 for Feel the Burn's cap of 3, and 80 HP.
Which is ridiculous. A class with double the investment in Constitution should NOT have the same amount of HP as the baseline class. Again, Monks don't gain a scaling Will save penalty for every point of Ki they spend to put them on par with a Fighter. The Kineticist should not receive a scaling HP penalty to put them on par with a Bard.
Well, you can sort of look at it differently--you're kind of trading the HP you get from Constitution and putting it, instead, into transformations, AC, DR, a damage shield, THP buffers, etc.
While I agree that Kineticists are pretty gimpy offensively without Kinetic Whip + Vital Strike + Power Attack + Furious Focus + Move Action to Empower or some melee combo like that, they have ridiculous survivability--they get defensive buffs combined with the ability to skip buying a weapon entirely, allowing them to pour that much more cash into protective magic items. Plus, when they drop, they are just unconscious, not at risk to die.
I agree with you in theory, but in practice, including bad choices is a core aspect of 3rd edition's design. Every class has options that are terrible. Most feats are terrible. It's designed that way on purpose.
Core aspects can still be poorly designed, and I would hope designers would try to do better moving forward.
Played optimally, you only take burn in the morning for your day long buffs and for composite blasts in boss fights. But people are given the option to play less optimally--you don't see Fighters being forced to take Iron Will, Rogues barred from dual wielding, or Magi being restricted to using only whips, prehensile hair, and 18-20/x2 crit weapons.
Played optimally, if you wanted to fill the same party role as a Kineticist, you would pick...basically any other class in the game. That's a problem. There's still time to fix it.
Well, you can sort of look at it differently--you're kind of trading the HP you get from Constitution and putting it, instead, into transformations, AC, DR, a damage shield, THP buffers, etc.
While I agree that Kineticists are pretty gimpy offensively without Kinetic Whip + Vital Strike + Power Attack + Furious Focus + Move Action to Empower or some melee combo like that, they have ridiculous survivability--they get defensive buffs combined with the ability to skip buying a weapon entirely, allowing them to pour that much more cash into protective magic items.
Which would be a good trade-off if other classes didn't already get all of those things and more. But they do.
Plus, when they drop, they are just unconscious, not at risk to die.
I would consider "One full round away from instant death" at risk to die, myself.
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As-is there's really nothing the class has that justifies Burn as a balancing mechanic.
So Burn needs to either be chucked, or the class needs to get something that makes it a worthwhile trade-off, along with Burn being re-tooled to be more reasonable.
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If people can assume there is a magic item like that (even if we don't know the cost and just kinda guess around the above items costs) it might help people figure out how it looks with it..
A comparison has already been done. Everyone chose to ignore it.
Link.
Because Mark has nether confirmed or denied whether there will be an item like that yet.
Could someone like or quote where it was said that there would be no round 2 for the playtest? I have been looking, but without knowing who posted it or where I can't find it. I'm really hoping that's not the case...
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Could someone like or quote where it was said that there would be no round 2 for the playtest? I have been looking, but without knowing who posted it or where I can't find it. I'm really hoping that's not the case...
Mark said this
Just stepping in to say that getting to nearly 2,000 posts in under two weeks is kind of impressive. If you give me a couple days to catch up on the thread I'll throw in my input as well ;)
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Someone made a comment earlier that essentially we've playtested all we could with the info we currently have.
Maybe at this point we need a new direction?
Maybe Marc can ask up to playtest some new Wild Talents?
Playtest some variables like: What if full BAB? What if Vital Strike? What if everything was a touch? What if iteratives? What if we had X item? What if we ignored SR? What if X?
Good idea Insain Dragoon.
and Marc, that Kaioken... make it happen! XD
To be serious.. Yes, make something like it happen. Using a move action to reduce burn by 1 sounds like it should have an upgrade for 1 full round action or more.
Took a while to read through 2000 posts, but here I am! Playtesting a level 4 Pyro, and while the dice have betrayed me so far; it's been fun!
It's nice to have a potentially solid blaster on the horizon. (Just make sure it can out DPR being a bow-Kineticist)
Finally, I just wanted to say: Thank you for creating this class.
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The more I think about burn, the more I think it needs to be changed. Having a pool of burn before taping into hp would solve it in the best way IMO. Give the kineticist 1/2 lvl. + Con to spend / day, and keep the mechanics the same. Each point spent contributes to feel the burn, while keeping him effective and every time closer to the damaging threshold.
The idea of a kinetic rage mechanic also seems right. Think about it: Almost every kineticist reference in fiction has a rage mechanic:
-Jedi avoid tapping into rage, for it leads to the dark side, but when they do, they have a destructive rush of power. Sith do it on ragular basis.
-In Carrie, the peak of her power is her moment of greatest rage, when she's humiliated and laughed at. She just flip out.
-In avatar, benders reach the peak of their powers in moments of emotional breakthrough. Rage, extreme sadness, sudden comprehension, any intense emotion works.
-kineticists in DC/Marvel comix do the same, having their greatest powers in raging surges.
-Anime references do it as well.
Of course, there are other issues to consider, as the lack of physical combat support, skills, utility powers, viable defenses against spells and attacks, ways to deal with resistances/immunity, effective control of the element. However, I think fixing burn should be a priority, since it impacts on the survivability and effectiveness of the character.
I would love an ability or feat or something that lets you use your blast without provoking or having to make a concentration check. Not just for being a spell power but for being a ranged attack. Maybe giving you a melee/melee touch attack options at the start for no burn would be nice as well.
I said a while back about a psychic rage mechanic, I wouldn't mind if it is part of base class or done as an archetype.
3 - Would racial alternative traits that affect elemental/ish bloodline powers/spells also apply to Wild Talents and Blasts? For example:
Some dwarves’ affinity for the earth grants them greater powers. Dwarves with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the earth descriptor or using granted powers of the Earth domain, the bloodline powers of the earth elemental bloodline, and revelations of the oracle’s stone mystery. This ability does not give them early access to level-based powers; it only affects the powers they could use without this ability. This racial trait replaces stonecunning.
I really want to run a Terra/Geo/etc, but touch attacks just seem like the better method at the moment. If I could give the abilities a shot in the arm with Stonesinger, it might be more worthwhile. I can definitely understand the long-term balance implications, but I wouldn't mind a clarification to help me decide what to do for the playtest =)
Also - is the SR against fire really that prevalent? If I went fire instead, would I run into a lot of SR issues before level 7 in PFS play where I wouldn't be of any use? I mean, I can diversify at 7 to a different element, but until then would I really be screwed as often as the cursory posts in this thread seem to suggest for Pyrokineticists?
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Because Mark has nether confirmed or denied whether there will be an item like that yet.
Which does not invalidate a comparison to see what impact said hypothetical item would have.
People are looking for ways to increase the kineticist accuracy and damage . A numerical breakdown of various proposals is an important of finding a solution.
I really want to run a Terra/Geo/etc, but touch attacks just seem like the better method at the moment.
While I expected the same to be true, in my own analysis (when I compared blasting to a kineticist archer and gunman), the numbers came out nearly identically, and in fact, the physical blasts come out ahead now that Mark confirmed weapon focus and improved critical can apply.
The issue with touch attacks is that they are practically auto hits. They do so much less damage, though, that their near perfect accuracy doesn't compensate. Touch attacks get a bad rap because of gunslingers, but they are scary because they get to cheat. They get their full attack stat to damage (which archers do not get, they use Strength for damage), and they can leverage their nearly automatic hits by trading accuracy for damage (deadly aim, for example, which explicitly breaks its own rules for firearms, and rapid shot, which most touch attacks don't qualify for).
Without those options, the damage is so much lower on the touch blasts that it just doesn't matter that they auto hit. At level 11, you're doing 1.5(6d6+6+Con) vs. 1.5(6d6+.5Con). With, say, +7 con, which I think is fair to assume by then, the physical blast has +10 damage (empowered makes that 15) on the energy blast, which is a lot to dpr. Plus, when low AC targets rear their heads, the physical blaster can use deadly aim for more oomph.
Honestly, I think fire is the weakest because they can only touch with weak damage and are always subject to energy and spell resistance (and energy resists tend to be much higher than dr), while Earth actually has the ability to overcome all material dr--they only suffer against alignment, x/- and epic dr.
So, yeah, though I think the kineticist's damage is not well balanced against other striker types, the two kinds of blasts available are remarkably well balanced against each other.
After last night's session, I think I can say I like this class. A: Good concept, fills needed niche, and has interesting, novel, and understandable mechanics
The kineticist ended up doing all the heavy lifting in the game last night and made an extremely effective glass cannon. The focus on a single element makes it a tad overspecialized, but given how extremely effective it is in its element ("in its element," get it? Thanks, I'll be here all week; don't forget to tip your server) that's good for overall balance and design.
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I think the thing this class needs is access to options, a feat that grants them spells at a lower progression that matches their element. something like this:
Expanded Elemental Control
Your control over the elements allows you to imitate spell effects with your chosen element.
Prerequisites: Kineticist level 3+
Benefit: Choose 2 spells that share the same elemental subtype as your blast and whose level is no gretaer than your Kineticist level divided by 3(So a sixth level Kineticist could take up to second level spells and a 18th level Kineticist could take 6th level spells). Your caster level for these spells is your Kineticist level -3.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, each time you take this feat it applies to a new set of spells effectively adding more spells to your list.
Can the blast spell equivalent level be reduced when casting a kinetic blast?
For instance can an 8th level aerokineticist still cast his electric blast (equivalent of 4th level) in a spellstoring +1 spiked gauntlet?
I think the thing this class needs is access to options, a feat that grants them spells at a lower progression that matches their element. something like this:
Expanded Elemental Control
Your control over the elements allows you to imitate spell effects with your chosen element.Prerequisites: Kineticist level 3+
Benefit: Choose 2 spells that share the same elemental subtype as your blast and whose level is no gretaer than your Kineticist level divided by 3(So a sixth level Kineticist could take up to second level spells and a 18th level Kineticist could take 6th level spells). Your caster level for these spells is your Kineticist level -3.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, each time you take this feat it applies to a new set of spells effectively adding more spells to your list.
How many spells per day does he get? That could be extremely overpowered if you're getting 3rd level spells as (effectively) cantrips.
If this is implemented (selecting spells as talents), it would surely be limited. Probably costing non-reducible burn and with the restriction of not selecting direct damage spells.
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How many spells per day does he get? That could be extremely overpowered if you're getting 3rd level spells as (effectively) cantrips.I think the thing this class needs is access to options, a feat that grants them spells at a lower progression that matches their element. something like this:
Expanded Elemental Control
Your control over the elements allows you to imitate spell effects with your chosen element.Prerequisites: Kineticist level 3+
Benefit: Choose 2 spells that share the same elemental subtype as your blast and whose level is no gretaer than your Kineticist level divided by 3(So a sixth level Kineticist could take up to second level spells and a 18th level Kineticist could take 6th level spells). Your caster level for these spells is your Kineticist level -3.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, each time you take this feat it applies to a new set of spells effectively adding more spells to your list.
I'm not sure it would be, he already has access to infinite blasts per day and this wouldn't allow him to swap out spells he would simply know them. At a certain point looking at it at will versus a sorcerer's 10/day with low level spells it doesn't make that much of a difference. Most of his things are at will anyways so I don't think it will be more effective as a major source of damage since blasts can be empowered/maximized and these spells will have no interaction with that.
They already get most of the spells at will so I don't think a reduced caster level and highly focused spells a few times per day is no better than an extra infusion or talent from a feat. In fact since you can still make talents for other spells of higher level this just allows for utilities that they don't get that way. The real point is to design a feat for versatility to open up page count for more new unique things instead of a bunch of talents that just copy utility spells.
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If this is implemented (selecting spells as talents), it would surely be limited. Probably costing non-reducible burn and with the restriction of not selecting direct damage spells.
The burn thing I could see, but It doesn't need to be too restrictive, they are already limited by having to select them as a feat and having a reduced caster level, and since they aren't talents or blasts they wouldn't be able to use their other mods on them. I could see 1 burn but allowing it to be reduced by the move action reduction as an extra balance but damage should always be more efficient from the blast with the metas than any spell they would get (hopefully, but then again if a low level spell is that effective it's even better for the other casters who could get it.)
Does anyone know if we will get a second version of the class for the playtest like most of the other playtest have had?