| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
1) Whirlwind affects "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind" - how is this size determined, by the base creature's size unless otherwise specified? (A small air elemental's whirlwind is 20' high, 5' wide at the base, and 10' high at the top.
2) When a creature transforms into a whirlwind, what actions can they take? Can a creature in a whirlwind make an attack action? Can they cast spells? If they cannot take most standard actions, do they get a single move action each turn? Can they take a full-round action to 'Run' or even a double-move action?
3) "An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save when it comes into contact with the whirlwind... " what defines this? Does making a natural attack against the whirlwind trigger this Reflex save? If, in 2), you said the creature can make attacks in whirlwind form, do these attacks trigger the Reflex save? If a creature in whirlwind form spends a full round occupying the same space as a creature smaller than it, is this enough contact to trigger a Reflex save? Can a creature with a fly speed of 100ft (as an Air Elemental) opt to make a move action repeatedly moving through a creature's space to force repeated reflex saves?
4) "Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind." Are all creatures caught in a whirlwind assumed to stay with it as it moves? Is a creature caught in a whirlwind considered to occupy a particular space? If not, when the whirlwind ends, what decides which possible space each creature ends up in? What factors might affect this?
5) A creature who is caught is now "automatically taking the indicated damage each round." When is this damage applied? Does it cause a concentration check? Can the creature opt to hold this damage until a spell is cast and cause a concentration check?
6) "If the whirlwind's base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris." Is this a supernatural property of the whirlwind which happens regardless of what ground it touches (including a magic floor it is not strong enough to drag debris from), or a mundane effect caused by supernatural winds that is subject to environmental factors?
7) After the reflex save to avoid damage of the initial contact, a creature "must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds." Do you only need to make this save if the previous save failed? It seems the intent, but the sentence is not preceded with "if the first reflex save failed."
8) If a spellcaster attempts to cast a spell while caught by a whirlwind which is touching the ground, does it need to succeed at two concentration checks?
9) Can a whirlwind be attacked? Are their any restrictions on this, such as differing rules for ranged, melee, single target spells and area-of-effect spells?
10) Can creatures inside a whirlwind be attacked? If so, what space do they occupy? Are their penalties to attacking them? Can the whirlwind-form creature affect these positions? What type of action would this be, free? If it can, could a creature summon an air elemental, have it transform into a whirlwind, intentionally fail a reflex save, and have the air elemental move it around to avoid most forms of hard?
11) When a whirlwind ends, what space does the creature causing it take, any of the spaces in three-dimensions that the whirlwind was affecting? The base?
12) What penalties, if any, are there for attacking from inside a whirlwind? Can a whirlwind affect this, such as allowing a caught creature to easily fire out, or to move a creature attempting to fire out into a less useful position?
13) Can a whirlwind be flanked if the whirlwind-form creature is not immune to flanking?
14) Does a whirlwind provide cover to creatures behind it? Does a whirlwind provide cover to creatures inside of it? Does a whirlwind provide cover from creatures inside it? Can it affect any of these?
Some of these might be obvious to some people or stated clearly and I did not read the relevant passage correctly, but I am sure at least some of these could do with being addressed and searches have provided a few opinions on one or two of them at best.
I've run into some similar questions as my party's druid likes the Air Elemental form if he needs to go flying. I can only offer my speculation and educated guesses, but I'll try to give reasoning. I also borrow logic from the Whirlwind spell. Also read the full entry for Whirlwind here.
1) Based on the elemental's normal size. The whirlwind form doesn't have a specific Size (capital S for the game term), so there's nothing there to use. Also when the phrase is used, they mean the monster's size. The idea being that the volume of the whirlwind is based on the elemental's size, so should the size of the creatures picked up.
2) No, per the whirlwind rules it cannot make its normal attacks and does not threaten. But it should still get standard actions (and thus double move).
3) Instead of allowing attacks, I require the elemental base to move over the square of targets in order to trigger the 'affected creature' event. In this case, attacking the whirlwind won't trigger it and the creature can't attack anyone. Moving back and through a square is hard due to flight rules and pulling 180 degree turns, but it will technically work.
4) They move with the whirlwind. They do occupy space, which is part of the 'maximum number of creatures for the volume' idea mentioned in the rules. When dropped, I'd say they fall downwards and take up squares accordingly. You would have them spread outwards as they fall on top of others and roll off.
5) Most reasonable is to apply it at the start of the victim's turn, like bleed damage. This represents damage taken over the last round and ensures they take at least one dose of it before escaping. I'd rule this 'continuing damage' like acid arrow would do, for spellcasting purposes. Though the rules suggest otherwise as there is already a concentration check required of any casters in the whirlwind (15+spell level)
6) Mundane effect based on there actually being debris to be picked up.
7) The use of 'must also succeed' makes me think that you only take the second save if you fail the first save. This also matches the probable intent, so that's a plus!
8) If the caster is performing a long casting (full round or more) and the whirlwind gets them, I'd say Reflex to avoid damage. If failed, a concentration check with the damage in mind and then the second reflex and a second concentration check as they get pulled up into the air. Is this what you meant?
9) I'd say yes. Since air elementals, which are just bundles of air, can be shot with arrows I'd say the whirlwind form can too. This may take some hand-waving and belief suspension.
10) Bit... more complicated. I'd say single target attacks, no, as they hit the elemental first. AOEs may catch the people inside if it crosses into the internal volume of the whirlwind. Fireball centered on the whirlwind is a definite strike. Burning hands at the base of the whirlwind, then probably not.
11) I'd say anywhere in the three dimensional area taken by the whirlwind.
12) "Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally... Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls." So it seems like no, but there's definite room for the GM to plan.
13) I'd say no because it does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but that's my interpretation. Strict interpretation says they can be flanked.
14) It is a creature and should follow the normal rules of such. Both to creatures beyond it and those inside it. I don't believe it would be able to affect any of it, but that's again up to the GM.
Hope this helps. It isn't perfect and there's enough holes in the rules to allow the GM to do what it would like to do.
Its helpful if you think of whirlwind as a special sort of trample plus grapple.
1. Whirlwind doesn't care about size category per se, but you can only be trapped if you fit inside the whirlwind's volume. Eg a large air elemental can make a 16ft high whirlwind that is 8ft. Wide at the top. So a creature that occupies a 10ft square (like a large creature) couldn't fit. The remainder left on these numbers help lets you know that a smaller creature would be enveloped. So it is best to think of a whirlwind in terms of the number of 5ft squares. The is one 5ft cube at the very base. Up to 10 ft (width 5) there is another 5ft cube. And up to 16 ft there is yet another. So, a 16ft high whirlwind can pick up and carry up to three creatures that have 5ft spaces. A 32 ft high whirlwind has those 3, plus a 10x10x5 cube at 20ft. Another 10x10x5 cube at 25ft and another 15x15x5 space at 32 ft. So it can grab up to 20 small or medium creatures, or 12 and one large etc.
2. They just cant make normal attacks or make AoOs, anything else is doable (such as a druid casting a spell via natural spell)
3. Here is where looking at trample is helpful. The whirlwind needs to enter the enemies space. It can only affect each target once per round.
4. Yes, every trapped creature moves with the whirlwind. When the escape I would say let them pick any square adjacent to the base. If the whirlwind ends, just randomize this. No need to add fall damage, we can assume the whirlwind "winds down" a bit before dissipating.
5. The damage is dealt at the start of the whirlwinding creatures turn. They can't choose when this happens.
6. This is really just inconsequential fluff text. If there is something on the ground that wind will damage or move, the whirlwind will do so, but this is just descriptive text.
7. You make two saves, one for damage and one to avoid being trapped.
8. Not sure why it would be 2. A caster in a whirlwind must pass a single DC 15+Spell level concentration check to cast while in the whirlwind.
9. It can be attacked and damaged just like any other creature.
10. Yes, judging by the fact that a suspended creature can make attacks, we can assume that they can also be attacked. Choose one space inside the whirlwind to place the creature when it is first picked up. The text says they are "suspended" there so just use that space for ease. I would say that it is easiest to simply fill the whirlwind from the bottom up with no choice for the whirlwind. This lack of control makes sense since the whirlwind can't choose to drop anyone.
11. Drop held creatures randomly around the whirlwinds base. We can assume that it winds down instead of abruptly ending. This avoid the need to calculate possible fall damage.
12. Again, the whirlwind has no control over its penalties. They apply as long as you are inside. The penalties listed are -4 dex and -2 on attack rolls (see? same as grappled!)
13. Yes just like any other creature
14. Yes just like any other creature and definitely to trapped creatures
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So I think I have been playing this wrong. I read the section on the two saving throws and will quote it here
"An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster's HD + the monster's Strength modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful.
The bolded part was mentioned earlier and likewise I took it to mean you had to fail the first save or be picked up. However, the language you must succeed actually indicates the opposite. When you are affected by a whirlwind to be unaffected you must make a reflex save for no damage and you must succeed on a second save or be picked up.
I think the reason I thought as I did was because I assumed that the It referred to a damage creature but further reading analysis suggests that It refers to an affected creature, not an affected creature that fails the first reflex save.
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Only a few months off, so I'll bring this back up with another question. Assuming you somehow had whirlwind and trample on the same creature, can they both be used at the same time? Trample limits you to one creature as a full round action, but doesn't say anything about the rest of your movement. Whirlwind says you can't make your normal attacks and don't threaten, but otherwise doesn't limit your actions. Is trample part of 'your normal attacks'?
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Trample is a normal attack. And therefore you cannot make it while in whirlwind form.
Necro answering some of the questions above, because I disagree with the answers given.
1) Whirlwind affects "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind" - how is this size determined,
The Storm Kindler prestige class lists what sized creature is picked up by what size whirlwind. Since tiny, small, medium, and large creatures can take the Storm Kindler prestige class, and get the same size whirlwind, and the same sized creatures they can pick up, it is clearly the size of the whirlwind that matters, not the size of the creature creating it.
2) When a creature transforms into a whirlwind, what actions can they take?
They get a move and a standard. There is almost nothing they can do with the standard, except move or ready a move action.
3) "An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save when it comes into contact with the whirlwind... "
When you hit it, or when it moves into your square. "Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space"
4) "Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind." Are all creatures caught in a whirlwind assumed to stay with it as it moves? Is a creature caught in a whirlwind considered to occupy a particular space? If not, when the whirlwind ends, what decides which possible space each creature ends up in? What factors might affect this?
The whirlwind drops creatures it drops into the base square. If this base square is in the air, they fall from there. If it is on the ground, and is occupied, follow the rules for a creature forced into an occupied square (they are shunted to the nearest unoccupied square.)
5) A creature who is caught is now "automatically taking the indicated damage each round." When is this damage applied? Does it cause a concentration check? Can the creature opt to hold this damage until a spell is cast and cause a concentration check?
On the whirlwinds turn. Treat as "ongoing damage." (forces a reduced concentration check.
6) "If the whirlwind's base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris." Is this a supernatural property of the whirlwind which happens regardless of what ground it touches (including a magic floor it is not strong enough to drag debris from), or a mundane effect caused by supernatural winds that is subject to environmental factors?
I'm not sure one way or the other. It says "will create" not may create or may pick up and fling debris found, so I would err on the side of it being a SU effect.
It does beg the question of what happens if an air elemental whirlwinds in a vacuum.
8) If a spellcaster attempts to cast a spell while caught by a whirlwind which is touching the ground, does it need to succeed at two concentration checks?
presumably.
One for being held in the whirlwind,
One for being in the cloud of debris.
10) Can creatures inside a whirlwind be attacked? If so, what space do they occupy? Are their penalties to attacking them? Can the whirlwind-form creature affect these positions? What type of action would this be, free? If it can, could a creature summon an air elemental, have it transform into a whirlwind, intentionally fail a reflex save, and have the air elemental move it around to avoid most forms of hard?
Yes they can be attacked. I would generally allow them to be attacked in any square as they are whirled around and around the whirlwind. And yes, you can have a pet whirlwind whirlybird you around the battle field, assuming you are willing to take the damage every round, and have some way of preventing yourself from going prone when falling. (Says my gnome invulnerable rager with boots of the cat and a air elemental familiar...)
11) When a whirlwind ends, what space does the creature causing it take, any of the spaces in three-dimensions that the whirlwind was affecting? The base?
I generally assume the base, unless the base is occupied, at which point it is shifted to the nearest unoccupied space.
12) What penalties, if any, are there for attacking from inside a whirlwind?
It says. -4 to dexterity, -2 to attacks.
13) Can a whirlwind be flanked if the whirlwind-form creature is not immune to flanking?
Yes, wierdly enough.
14) Does a whirlwind provide cover to creatures behind it? Does a whirlwind provide cover to creatures inside of it? Does a whirlwind provide cover from creatures inside it? Can it affect any of these?
Behind, yes.
In, Maybe? I would tend towards no.
No, it cannot affect any of these, except to get out of the way.
Can I please clarify my understanding of what a creature can do when they are trapped in a whirlwind. It seems to me that despite being suspended and not able to move (as in a move action) they can still attack with the penalty of -2, and thus they can melee attack the air elemental itself. So if the air elemental has trapped a lot of creatures then these creatures can have full attacks each round and they could quickly kill the air elemental depending on their collective ability to hit. Is this right?
Correct, Arabellezz.
It's generally advisable to drop captured creatures once you've reached an uncomfortable height to fall from.