CEO, Goblinworks
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Continuing my series on how to rapidly increase a Role to 8 ranks, here's the Rogue info.
As before I used a developer (dev) command to give myself a lot of XP. That was the only dev command I used. I did not buy anything from any auction house.
I did the Tutorial and slotted the Tutorial Feats.
I got a Short Bow from the Short Bow supplier at the Thieves Guild.
The Rogue Role focuses on Rogue Kit Implement, Power, Stealth, Hit Points and Reflex Bonus, plus a little Perception. I took levels in those as necessary to advance the Rogue Roles. Occasionally I also took Base Attack Bonus Feats as required.
I killed 250 units of anything that moved with the Short Bow to get 15 Subterfuge points. Along the way I spent XP on Rogue Role Feats. That got me to Rogue 5.
I also got Heavy Armor Proficiency and Swashbuckler, slotted Swashbuckler, and equipped Hide & Steel Banded (from loot) as soon as I got some. This made the killin' much easier.
I got a Short Sword as loot, and switched to the Short Sword. I killed 100 units of anything that moved with the Short Sword to get 10 Subterfuge Points (total of 25). That got me to Rogue 7.
Killin' things took less than 3 hours.
At that point I needed 11 Con to complete the build. I trained Bow Weapon Proficiency, and 9 Short Bow Feats. Then I trained Ranged Attack Bonus 1, and trained the 9 Feats to Rank 2. Trained Ranged Attack Bonus 2, and trained the 9 Feats to Rank 3.
I trained Light Blade Weapon Proficiency, and 8 Short Sword Feats. Then I trained Light Melee Attack Bonus 1, trained the 8 Feats to Rank 2, trained Light Melee Attack Bonus 2, trained the 8 Feats to Rank 3.
Trained Base Attack Bonus 3, trained Stealth 8, and had Rogue 8.
Overall I killed 350 monsters or NPCs.
Final Stats:
Hit Points: 560
Dex: 11
Will: 50
Reflex: 46
Fortitude: 50
324 copper pieces recovered as loot.
6 Recipes including two +1 and +3 Steel Plate (UNGH!)
I also got the very first Spell I have ever recovered as loot. Bless.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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It feels pretty grindy. But I'm not playing the game in what I would consider a typical fashion since I have no delay on XP and I've done nothing but kill really easy monsters enough times to build a pyramid of skulls in Marchmont. :)
If I were playing an hour or two at a time with friends and pursuing some objectives other than "kill as many things as fast as possible" it would feel much less grindy. I think I'm well over 1,000 kills in just a week, which isn't at all what we think people will actually do when they're gated by XP.
The rogue build took longer than necessary because I was so tired of killing tutorial goblins I had to leave the starter area and kill something else for a while. At last with the cleric build I kind of had a real incentive to do that because of the divine points from killing skeletons.
If someone opts in to just killing tutorial goblins and tells me they're bored to tears, they'll have my sympathy. And I say that BEFORE I have to kill 500 monsters to level the Wizard.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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A couple of additions to the original post.
I also trained Ranged Attack Bonus 3. I also trained Multi-Shot Rank 1.
I trained 10 Rank 1 Longbow Feats from Skirmisher.
I trained Fan, Footwork and Forehand (Dagger Attacks) to Rank 1 from Skirmisher.
There are 9 Short Sword feats, not 8.
I did not train the Short Sword Feats to rank 3. I thought that I did but my character does not have them at Rank 3.
There is a discrepancy between my in-game stats (which show I have 11 Constitution) and my calculation of my stats using the spreadsheet data we have internally which tracks the ability bonuses (which show I don't). I should have had to train the Short Sword Feats to Rank 3 to get to 11 Con. So something is very strange and we're trying to figure out the discrepancy.
My spreadsheet shows I have consumed 48,894 points of XP, or 20.3 days of training time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone opts in to just killing tutorial goblins and tells me they're bored to tears, they'll have my sympathy. And I say that BEFORE I have to kill 500 monsters to level the Wizard.
I killed over 1000 in a few hours for my wizard. Using a game controller and watching something else on another screen helped.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm currently not seeing any mobs around Phaeros weaker than yellow, and most are red. Neither have I found a node I can harvest due to the level of my gathering skills. None of the mobs are solo. The only player I could find was Nihimon, and he was apparently afk.
What this translates to is heavily restricted gameplay. I can travel. There appears to be no other constructive use of time in-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone opts in to just killing tutorial goblins and tells me they're bored to tears, they'll have my sympathy. And I say that BEFORE I have to kill 500 monsters to level the Wizard.
What's the purpose of these goblins? Tutorial doesn't require 1000 kills, archievements are supposed to be obtained automatically while doing other stuff. So is coin and recipes, as far as I undestand. If one is not expected to farm them, then why give this option at all? It's an ideal place for botting, it disturbs balance of coin and low recipes drops. The advice to the new players now is: "go solo goblins", instead of "find a group and go to the wilderness". If these gobs are just for the new players, I don't see a point making so many of them and with such a short respawn time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What's the purpose of these goblins? Tutorial doesn't require 1000 kills, archievements are supposed to be obtained automatically while doing other stuff. So is coin and recipes, as far as I undestand. If one is not expected to farm them, then why give this option at all? It's an ideal place for botting, it disturbs balance of coin and low recipes drops. The advice to the new players now is: "go solo goblins", instead of "find a group and go to the wilderness". If these gobs are just for the new players, I don't see a point making so many of them and with such a short respawn time.
There's a high flow rate of new people, with the possibility of even more with the open alpha. In theory, a thousand people could log in for the first time on any given weekend and want to try the tutorial, causing a need for 300+ goblins in short order.
Yes, it's drop disruptive, but is only a short-term measure that will probably be gone before EE gets much underway and shouldn't have any lasting effect.
A couple of additions to the original post.
I also trained Ranged Attack Bonus 3. I also trained Multi-Shot Rank 1.
I trained 10 Rank 1 Longbow Feats from Skirmisher.
I trained Fan, Footwork and Forehand (Dagger Attacks) to Rank 1 from Skirmisher.
There are 9 Short Sword feats, not 8.
I did not train the Short Sword Feats to rank 3. I thought that I did but my character does not have them at Rank 3.
There is a discrepancy between my in-game stats (which show I have 11 Constitution) and my calculation of my stats using the spreadsheet data we have internally which tracks the ability bonuses (which show I don't). I should have had to train the Short Sword Feats to Rank 3 to get to 11 Con. So something is very strange and we're trying to figure out the discrepancy.
My spreadsheet shows I have consumed 48,894 points of XP, or 20.3 days of training time.
Ryan, you keep saying Con, but do you actually mean Dexterity?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The grind issue seems mainly to arise with people that have the mindset that the only character actually worth playing is one maximized for the current state of play and any activity prior to that is just an unfortunate chore necessary to get that character to its optimal (maximised) state.
This attitude is prevalent among but not restricted to PvP players.
A PvE example from EVE is the continual string of PvE forum whiners complaining it is unfair they cannot fly a battleship by the end of their 2 weeks of free trial.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The turtorial goblins aren't going away. Making more robust quest tech is pretty low on my list of things I think we need to focus on.
They drop nothing better or worse than the mobs in the nearby forest, and once you put on your armor and have some more hit points, it's quicker to farm the mobs for loot than the turtorial goblins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My rogue is level 8 and I did no grinding. I achieved all my subterfuge points through normal play. Not once did I go out and say I need to kill so many of this to be able to train that. When I had the XP needed to train the feats I wanted, I already had met the requirements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is there an actual rogue guide anywhere? I've already made a lot of mistakes on my main char that I wouldn't want to make again, and I have started an alt just to note down everything I should do, but it would be really helpful if someone else has written a guide.
I only learnt last night that I could be wearing heavy armour. It's all very well for someone to say "encumbrance isn't implemented", but that doesn't translate into "you can wear whatever armour you like."
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Goblin Squad Member
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The grind issue seems mainly to arise with people that have the mindset that the only character actually worth playing is one maximized for the current state of play and any activity prior to that is just an unfortunate chore necessary to get that character to its optimal (maximised) state.
This attitude is prevalent among but not restricted to PvP players.
A PvE example from EVE is the continual string of PvE forum whiners complaining it is unfair they cannot fly a battleship by the end of their 2 weeks of free trial.
Not an equivalent example. Let me explain....
(Disclaimer, I don't have the skill tree in front of me)
You can not fly a battleship in EvE in two weeks, that is true. But the skills you train to get into that battleship are spent on generic ship skills, weapon system skills and cruiser class skills that are prerequisite skills to pilot a battleship. Most of those skills transfer to the battleship piloting, and so are not "wasted".
In some cases, in PFO, we are forced to train in unrelated skills in order to advance our characters. This is particularly true for combat oriented characters who must train gathering and refining skills to increase those needed attributes. In one case I had to go out and mine to achievement 2 just to unlock the mining skill needed, to increase my constitution, to unlock the skill I needed to advance my role as a Rogue.
There is no such convoluted system like that in EvE. Which is why I said it is a bad example.
The Devs have said there will be additional means for meeting those gated requirements. I'll take them at their word on that. But, let's not make it seem that the current gating system is adequate, supports a true sandbox level of freedom, or that it makes perfect sense.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Bluddwolf, I just painstakingly documented that for Fighters, Clerics and Rogues there is nothing you cannot train that requires you to take any Feats outside their core Role features. Including in the thread you're responding in. Please stop spreading misinformation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can I expect there to be PvP-related achievements added which will serve as an alternative way of meeting e.g. Subterfuge pre-requisites? I dislike the prospect of being forced into PvE in order to improve my character for the purposes of PvP. The EVE equivalent would be saying I must have destroyed 350 NPC spaceships before I can sit in an Assault Frigate.
With escalation groups spawning within shotbow range of Towers, I don't think it's going to be possible to have a character who never kills anything but PCs.
I don't think that kind of PVP purity fits the design goals very well, either. When a 100% escalation threatens the gatherers who provide the raw materials to make their armor and weapons, I suspect that many PVP fans will find themselves biting the bullet and killing some mobs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can I expect there to be PvP-related achievements added which will serve as an alternative way of meeting e.g. Subterfuge pre-requisites? I dislike the prospect of being forced into PvE in order to improve my character for the purposes of PvP. The EVE equivalent would be saying I must have destroyed 350 NPC spaceships before I can sit in an Assault Frigate.With escalation groups spawning within shotbow range of Towers, I don't think it's going to be possible to have a character who never kills anything but PCs.
I don't think that kind of PVP purity fits the design goals very well, either. When a 100% escalation threatens the gatherers who provide the raw materials to make their armor and weapons, I suspect that many PVP fans will find themselves biting the bullet and killing some mobs.
I think you underestimate the extent of psychotic/sociopathic dysfunction amongst dedicated PvP players :D
I would also agree that my character has never been blocked by achievements from leveling whatever he felt like. ability scores yes - achievements no. I suspect you would have to be focused on a total min/max build and also refuse to actually play the build until it was "maxed" to have serious issues with achievements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf, I just painstakingly documented that for Fighters, Clerics and Rogues there is nothing you cannot train that requires you to take any Feats outside their core Role features. Including in the thread you're responding in. Please stop spreading misinformation.
Currently, you can't train a wizard and, I assume, a Cleric to level 8 anymore. Since you need a Power level over 8 to progress, there is no place that allows that training, at present.
I assume this is a bug you guys are going to address soon since you need a Power of 14 to get to level 7 as a Wizard and all skills and training cap at 8.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf, I just painstakingly documented that for Fighters, Clerics and Rogues there is nothing you cannot train that requires you to take any Feats outside their core Role features. Including in the thread you're responding in. Please stop spreading misinformation.
I needed to train mining to get my constitution up, and I needed to get the mining achievement 2 in order to get mining 4 or 5, I forget which. So please tell me where this misinformation is?
Now perhaps some changes have been made, for instance I noticed where it used to say Dex 12 was needed, it now says 11. If I remember correctly, one of the Armor feats or Hit Points required Constitution.
It is the attribute requirements that, were and may still be, forcing us to train feats outside of the Rogue feats. Or are you arguing that various gathering, refining and crafting skills considered a part of the role of Rogues?
Until attributes can be raised within the desired roles, I stand by my previous statement of having to train feats I have little or no intentions of using.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe he was referring to his recent Rogue post, where he bought nothing outside of Rogue-stuff on his way to Role level 8. We appear to have prima facie evidence that ACE abilities aren't needed...at least they're not in the latest build; you--and others--requested the change from how it worked earlier, and they made it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf, I just painstakingly documented that for Fighters, Clerics and Rogues there is nothing you cannot train that requires you to take any Feats outside their core Role features. Including in the thread you're responding in. Please stop spreading misinformation.Currently, you can't train a wizard and, I assume, a Cleric to level 8 anymore. Since you need a Power level over 8 to progress, there is no place that allows that training, at present.
I assume this is a bug you guys are going to address soon since you need a Power of 14 to get to level 7 as a Wizard and all skills and training cap at 8.
I was under the impression that was just a matter of getting enough towers now the WoT is under way ??
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Bluddwolf, I just painstakingly documented that for Fighters, Clerics and Rogues there is nothing you cannot train that requires you to take any Feats outside their core Role features. Including in the thread you're responding in. Please stop spreading misinformation.I needed to train mining to get my constitution up, and I needed to get the mining achievement 2 in order to get mining 4 or 5, I forget which. So please tell me where this misinformation is?
(Emphasis added.
it isn't the way it used to be anymore.