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Campaign leadership, for better or for worse, has decided that, in the case of pregen death, pregens can be retroactively applied to a brand new level 1 PC that dies instantly.
I personally find this to detrimental to the other players at the table, as people playing pregens literally have no dog in the fight at that table. This encourages sloppy play and bad decision making, because none of it sticks to them. Combine this with the poor construction of many pregens and its a recipe for disaster.
This phenomenon has caused me to walk from several higher tier tables before they even start, and one resulted in a TPK because I was bringing a cleric to a particularly difficult scenario. Of course, the two people playing pregens suffered no ill effects but the other three players sure took it up the rear end.
If I could, I'd ban pregens from the table in the case where the player has an appropriately leveled PC. And ban them from tier 7-11. But I can't. All I can do is walk away from those tables.
Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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You make the decision on what character to apply the adventure to before the adventure starts.
In general, you can't replay a scenario.
So the person who plays the PreGen with a new character number can not have one of his normal characters gain the rewards from that scenario. Yes, dying doesn't have quite the sting that it would have with a long term character. Winning also doesn't give as good of rewards -- either you have to work a character up to the appropriate level or you get reduced gold on the new character.
I think that playing a character at a convention is generally more dangerous than regularly scheduled PFS play. It is always random who you get at a table, but at a convention the chances are much higher that you will get a casual player that is just trying the waters. Since they have no investment, there is no reason to not try the more dangerous scenarios.
The thing is you want to allow this sort of person to try the game. Gives them an opportunity to see if it is something they are interested in. The problem comes in when their weekend dalliance kills off a character that someone has been working on for months. The best solution I can think of is to arrange to play at conventions with people you know or play a pregen on a new character number when you don't know anyone at the table.
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Campaign leadership, for better or for worse, has decided that, in the case of pregen death, pregens can be retroactively applied to a brand new level 1 PC that dies instantly.
I personally find this to detrimental to the other players at the table, as people playing pregens literally have no dog in the fight at that table. This encourages sloppy play and bad decision making, because none of it sticks to them. Combine this with the poor construction of many pregens and its a recipe for disaster.
This phenomenon has caused me to walk from several higher tier tables before they even start, and one resulted in a TPK because I was bringing a cleric to a particularly difficult scenario. Of course, the two people playing pregens suffered no ill effects but the other three players sure took it up the rear end.
If I could, I'd ban pregens from the table in the case where the player has an appropriately leveled PC. And ban them from tier 7-11. But I can't. All I can do is walk away from those tables.
I am sorry you have that experience. I notice somethign different with people playing pregens though. They are more willing to sacrifice themselves so other member can survive.
I find that people understand the players with non-pregens have more to lose and thus want to prevent that as much as posible.
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It doesn't help either that pregens have very little cash and can not purchase scenario-specific consumables. Often, pregens are the last PCs standing in wipes, because their lack of effectiveness makes them the lowest priority target for NPCs. In my experience, it's hard to sacrifice for others with no threat mechanic.
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It doesn't help either that pregens have very little cash and can not purchase scenario-specific consumables. Often, pregens are the last PCs standing in wipes, because their lack of effectiveness makes them the lowest priority target for NPCs. In my experience, it's hard to sacrifice for others with no threat mechanic.
I remember seeing a Valeros walk past a bad guy to pull it's AoO so the non-pregen could run away.
I saw kyra stand in a narrow hall way so the monster would have to walk up to her and smote her, but the allies could run trhough her square. This allowed everyone that turn to get ahead of the monster and away.
Kyra also has the wand of cure light at some levels that everyone burns away first.
If you are clever and know the rules it is possible to take one ofr the team with any character.
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Okay, there are positioning and AOO shenanigans. As well as the famous "burn those charges, Kyra". Unfortunately, by happenstance, those haven't been balanced out the lack of combat efficacy in my experience. Maybe integrated over all possible PFS games that have been played, they do. It's also likely exacerbated by the fact that none of my PCs can carry a group and require contribution from other PCs in the group.
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I don't understand why a pre-gens death has anything to do with the real PC anyway. What is the reasoning behind it? I mean, if I have to run a pregen, and his death kills my main PC, guess who's just going to 'take his books and go home' that night instead of risking my real PC? (Yeah, I know none of them are real, and I could have bad luck that night and get my real PC killed anyway, but...)
Perhaps a pregen death should result in 0xp, 0 gold, etc for the real PC. Or, maybe better yet, no rewards at all for running a pregen. But, you can run that scenario later with your real PC once they get to that level? Why wouldn't that work? I understand the need to not let players not play 100% and mess up the game for other characters, but is 'griefing' of this type really that common? If so, I need to review an upcoming con's schedule to avoid games I don't have a PC ready for...
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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BretI: Usually the chronicles for these scenarios state that you select the character it is applied to at the time the chronicle is being written, not at the beginning of the scenario.Agreed. That was the old interpretation of the rule, before Mike Brock made the newer ruling.
Do you have a cite for that rule?
As far as I know, character choice is always made when the game begins, at sign in, the only exceptions I know of are silverhex (assigned when applying credit) and level 1 pregens (can only be applied to newly created pcs - that is pcs with 0xp.) and possibly we be goblins (where it doesn't matter anyway)
In all other cases, you could assign it to an unused character number, and walk away if it dies, but that's a good way to wind up with 20 1xp characters..
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Making me look stuff up? Okay gimme a bit.
FAQ says:
"Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead."
Bolding mine.
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BretI: Usually the chronicles for these scenarios state that you select the character it is applied to at the time the chronicle is being written, not at the beginning of the scenario.Agreed. That was the old interpretation of the rule, before Mike Brock made the newer ruling.Do you have a cite for that rule?
As far as I know, character choice is always made when the game begins, at sign in, the only exceptions I know of are silverhex (assigned when applying credit) and level 1 pregens (can only be applied to newly created pcs - that is pcs with 0xp.) and possibly we be goblins (where it doesn't matter anyway)
In all other cases, you could assign it to an unused character number, and walk away if it dies, but that's a good way to wind up with 20 1xp characters..
It's in the FAQ.
EDIT:FAQ
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Making me look stuff up? Okay gimme a bit.
FAQ says:
"Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead."
Bolding mine.
Well, this would be fine then. I won't be so skittish about pregens now.
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Playing with them? Yeah, sure. But sitting with them sucks.
I've never had a problem with it. Even when we had an inexperienced player running a pregen ninja with us in Bonekeep. Sure, sometimes they suck at being effective, but I've played with non-pregens that have that problem too. Fortunately, PFS is usually forgiving enough you can still succeed with an ineffective PC in the group.
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The FAQ forgets to mention that you can only do this if you rename your dead pregen to Doorknob McDeadGuy.
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Playing with them? Yeah, sure. But sitting with them sucks.I've never had a problem with it. Even when we had an inexperienced player running a pregen ninja with us in Bonekeep. Sure, sometimes they suck at being effective, but I've played with non-pregens that have that problem too. Fortunately, PFS is usually forgiving enough you can still succeed with an ineffective PC in the group.
Agreed. I've never had any bigger problems with an inexperienced player with a pregen than I would have with the same player using their own PC. And experienced players know how to choose and play the better pregens in a way that truly helps the party more than it hurts.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I've chosen to run Amiri a couple of times, because she was likely to be of more use to the party than my only in-tier character.
She 'took one for the team' once, nobly sacrificing her life in order that the rest of the group could survive. (The GM later informed us that had she not done so, it would almost certainly have ended in a TPK).
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I'm yet to see an experienced player play a pregen to avoid risking death on their real PC.
I think almost everyone wants to maximise their chances of getting the XP with a purpose-built character, or they want to roleplay their own character, or both, as much as possible.
When I do see pregens at a table and the game goes south, they play up the pregen's heroics, they've never let other characters overshadow them because they're more powerful, to be the last one standing. One of these is fun for everybody, the other is fun for nobody.
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If someone playing a pregen can just retroactively decide he was playing a newly created character, why even make them go through the formality of reporting a character dead? It's not like you can run out of numbers...
And before someone comes back with "data quality," consider this: They still haven't added the new factions to the reporting system. :P
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I'm yet to see an experienced player play a pregen to avoid risking death on their real PC.
I think almost everyone wants to maximise their chances of getting the XP with a purpose-built character, or they want to roleplay their own character, or both, as much as possible.
When I do see pregens at a table and the game goes south, they play up the pregen's heroics, they've never let other characters overshadow them because they're more powerful, to be the last one standing. One of these is fun for everybody, the other is fun for nobody.
Other than one player at FLGS who seems to like Pregens better than his own PC's (seriously, he jumps at the chance to rock a pregen) I agree. I've never really seen pregens used as a way to avoid death, its usually someone who doesn't have a character in tier, or is brand new to the game. Its nearly always someone with only a few PC's, so if they die I'd rather them not kill a real PC. Me, with 14ish PC's, not a big deal. The player who has one or two pc's its a giant deal for.
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Had a player in my game last night play a level 4 pregen Amiri, and not only did she discover that she enjoyed playing a barbarian, she was charging headlong into the fray calling "firsties!"on any door they went through to be the main target. Not only was the character very effective in the scenario, she was willing to risk herself for the benefit of the party. I can honestly say that is more than a few actual characters have brought to the table in games I have played or run, PFS and otherwise.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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There are some limits on using pregens though, right? You can't just say "this scenario looks dangerous, I'll do it with a pregen, and if we make it I'll attach it to my actual PC" - well, not in all cases anyway.
You may not apply a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher, as you should have used this character for the scenario instead.
If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character, though you may be able to play a pregenerated character or start another character within Society rules.
Suppose you have two characters; PC#1 who's level 7, and PC#2 who's level 6. You're going to a 7-11 adventure.
You're not allowed to use a level 7 pregen and then apply to Chronicle to PC#1, unless you (conveniently) forgot to bring PC#1's previous Chronicle sheets to the game.
However, you're totally allowed to play with the pregen and then reserve the Chronicle sheet for PC#2, to be applied when he reaches level 7.
Have I got that right?
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You still have that level seven character in your stable. I don't think you should be allowed to apply that chronicle to that level seven character. You shouldn't be rewarded for failing to bring the appropriate PC to the scenario. Furthermore, the word "forget" does not have quotation marks around it the guide. I can not believe the intent for this is for people to be able to engineer this situation.
It is also REALLY unfair to the other players at that table. So much so that I would be tempted to cancel the table if I were the GM.
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There are some limits on using pregens though, right? You can't just say "this scenario looks dangerous, I'll do it with a pregen, and if we make it I'll attach it to my actual PC" - well, not in all cases anyway.
You may not apply a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher, as you should have used this character for the scenario instead.If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character, though you may be able to play a pregenerated character or start another character within Society rules.Suppose you have two characters; PC#1 who's level 7, and PC#2 who's level 6. You're going to a 7-11 adventure.
You're not allowed to use a level 7 pregen and then apply to Chronicle to PC#1, [redacted].
However, you're totally allowed to play with the pregen and then reserve the Chronicle sheet for PC#2, to be applied when he reaches level 7.
Have I got that right?
Now you have that right.
The quote from page 20 in no way changes the requirement from page 6 on assigning credit.
I have not looked at them, but I heard the new ACG pregens are good due to being made by VCs and VLs
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@Sniggevert/David: I agree that "forgetting" isn't a cool thing to do (honestly forgetting is different); that rule is actually in the "Do Not Cheat" section of the rules.
It does like it is legal however to grab a pregen of a different level; suppose the following. You're coming to a 3-7 adventure, and the other people have level 6-7 characters, so that's gonna be the tier. You only have a level 3 character. He could technically participate, but he'd be dead meat.
It looks to me like you're within your rights to instead grab a level 7 pregen, and then hold the chronicle until your level 3 PC reaches level 7, and then apply it. I think that's both within the letter and spirit of the rules; it doesn't like trying be a jerk to get an unfair advantage, just a sporting chance.
(Note that the rules on this in modules and APs appear to be different.)
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@Sniggevert/David: I agree that "forgetting" isn't a cool thing to do (honestly forgetting is different); that rule is actually in the "Do Not Cheat" section of the rules.
It does like it is legal however to grab a pregen of a different level; suppose the following. You're coming to a 3-7 adventure, and the other people have level 6-7 characters, so that's gonna be the tier. You only have a level 3 character. He could technically participate, but he'd be dead meat.
It looks to me like you're within your rights to instead grab a level 7 pregen, and then hold the chronicle until your level 3 PC reaches level 7, and then apply it. I think that's both within the letter and spirit of the rules; it doesn't like trying be a jerk to get an unfair advantage, just a sporting chance.
(Note that the rules on this in modules and APs appear to be different.)
Ascalaphus, that is actually, IMO, a good time to use a pre-gen.
Above, I was just changing the bit that if you "forget" your level 7 character or chronicles for him, that you could play a level 7 pre-gen and apply the credit to him. You can't apply credit to a character that is already at least as high of a level as the pre-gen being played (for non-level 1 pre-gens).
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@Sniggevert/David: I agree that "forgetting" isn't a cool thing to do (honestly forgetting is different); that rule is actually in the "Do Not Cheat" section of the rules.
It does like it is legal however to grab a pregen of a different level; suppose the following. You're coming to a 3-7 adventure, and the other people have level 6-7 characters, so that's gonna be the tier. You only have a level 3 character. He could technically participate, but he'd be dead meat.
It looks to me like you're within your rights to instead grab a level 7 pregen, and then hold the chronicle until your level 3 PC reaches level 7, and then apply it. I think that's both within the letter and spirit of the rules; it doesn't like trying be a jerk to get an unfair advantage, just a sporting chance.
(Note that the rules on this in modules and APs appear to be different.)
Yeah, that's probably a good idea. The four levels, in general, will trump any inefficiencies the pregens might have. This is not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a level 5 or 6 dumping out of tier 6-7.
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You walk up to the table for a game of "#9-14 Diplomatic Traps in the Absolom Public Library" (Tier 5-9) with your 6th level Greatsword Fighter and glance around at the rest of the players.
Player 1: Has a 7th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.
Player 2: Has a 8th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.
Player 3: Has a 9th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.Great....
Choices:
a) Play your Fighter or....
b) Play a 7th level pregen or...
c) go home so the other players can get a Pregen to make the table work...
Yep! I'd go with A or B myself...that could be an amusing cluster...
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You walk up to the table for a game of "#9-14 Diplomatic Traps in the Absolom Public Library" (Tier 5-9) with your 6th level Greatsword Fighter and glance around at the rest of the players.
Player 1: Has a 7th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.
Player 2: Has a 8th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.
Player 3: Has a 9th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.Great....
Choices:
a) Play your Fighter or....
b) Play a 7th level pregen or...
c) go home so the other players can get a Pregen to make the table work...
I've seen fighters with high diplomacy. Just sayin.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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You walk up to the table for a game of "#9-14 Diplomatic Traps in the Absolom Public Library" (Tier 5-9) with your 6th level Greatsword Fighter and glance around at the rest of the players.
Player 1: Has a 7th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.
Player 2: Has a 8th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.
Player 3: Has a 9th level 2-H-Weapon Fighter.Great....
Choices:
a) Play your Fighter or....
b) Play a 7th level pregen or...
c) go home so the other players can get a Pregen to make the table work...
I would and have chosen to play a pregen in this situation, turns out choosing pregens based on the scenario title is a nice idea... Bonekeep (not saying which part), well playing Kyra wasn't a terrible idea.
Of course, these days I have plenty of alternate options (the pregen shaman looks amazing)
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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IMHO it is not the best choice to play the 4th of ANYTHING in a scenario. Esp. if you are the 6th level and the other 3 are 7, 8 and 9 (realizing that you will be playing up).
Not necessarily ...
6, 7, 8, & 9 gives an APL of 7.5
As this is exactly on the midpoint, it's party choice which way it rounds.
If they choose to round down, then they'll be playing the low subtier (although without the 4-character scaling, if the scenario offers it).