|
Awww.. I know there's some ambiguity and cheese about this, but monks have needed pounce for years now.
Known exploits/needed clarifications
dipping master of many style/sacred fist to get pounce at level 3
Using weapons: not only lets you do more damage but lets you crit fish with an 18-20 then hammer it home with an X 4
One hit or many? Some things only work on your first hit in a round, like dragon style adding 1.5X to your strength. some people wanted that to work with all the pummeling attacks.
It was good enough that EVERY monk would pick it up. I don't know if that means that its overpowered or the exact size and shaped patch the ss monk needed.
|
Because of this and this
Sure, but then would this logic not also apply to leaving barbarians with beast totem pounce legal?
Awww.. I know there's some ambiguity and cheese about this, but monks have needed pounce for years now.
Known exploits/needed clarifications
dipping master of many style/sacred fist to get pounce at level 3
Using weapons: not only lets you do more damage but lets you crit fish with an 18-20 then hammer it home with an X 4
One hit or many? Some things only work on your first hit in a round, like dragon style adding 1.5X to your strength. some people wanted that to work with all the pummeling attacks.
It was good enough that EVERY monk would pick it up. I don't know if that means that its overpowered or the exact size and shaped patch the ss monk needed.
I can appreciate the cheese concerns. There are quite a few things that simply need clarified, FAQ'd, or just plain have their mechanics changes at the moment.
That said, I personally believe that spreading pounce-like options throughout the ranks of the various martial classes would go a long way to shore up their balance vs. ranged and spellcasting. I would prefer that they were not full on charge + full attack options, as after you start tacking on things like HotC and rhino hide plus entourage, it gets crazy. Something that offered some mobility with multiple attacks without charging would be ideal.
As it stands though, I personally believe removing the feat from legality hurts overall game balance rather than promotes it. If it was removed for a reason other than game balance, then I suppose that would be a separate conversation.
|
|
Beast Pounce doesn't come online until level 10 at least. I am more surprised to see eidolon and wild shape pounce left if it is such an issue.Because of this and thisSure, but then would this logic not also apply to leaving barbarians with beast totem pounce legal?
The pre-req skipping of style feats is a problem mechanic in my opinion, so I can agree with the sentiment there. There are numerous magical means to acquire pounce prior to 10th level, however. I thought of this feat as something of an equalizer across the board. Not only between martial classes, but caster to martial as well.
Edit: At least in the low-mid range game play in terms of combating enemies. There isn't much to say about bending reality on a high level caster.
|
|
That said, I personally believe that spreading pounce-like options throughout the ranks of the various martial classes would go a long way to shore up their balance vs. ranged and spellcasting.
Definitely. That move or damage dichotomy is what makes archers and pets function so far above their payscale.
I would prefer that they were not full on charge + full attack options, as after you start tacking on things like HotC and rhino hide plus entourage, it gets crazy. Something that offered some mobility with multiple attacks without charging would be ideal.
If the feat interactions were ruled more conservatively it might get back in?
As it stands though, I personally believe removing the feat from legality hurts overall game balance rather than promotes it. If it was removed for a reason other than game balance, then I suppose that would be a separate conversation.
you don't just have to balance martial vs spellcaster: you also need to worry about martial vs martial. As it is a martial with this blows any other martial out of the water.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think they (being the developers) realized that the feat needed some hands-on attention to specify/clarify the interaction with various feats and effects. Currently it is probably in discussion with the developers, but the extent may be so far as to require re-wording the (Pummeling) feat. If the feat wording changes, then the feat will only resurface in its new form when the ACG goes into its second printing; and will possibly become PFS legal again then.
So (by my guess) the feat is currently in review with the Paizo team to be either FAQ'd into balance or reworded into balance. If it will be FAQ'd then we can expect to hear about it in the next 2 to 12 weeks; otherwise the next edition of the ACG may be 1 or 2 years off.
In the interim it is just prudent to remove it from PFS play.
|
Vital strike is just useless for the vast majority of melee (the hungry hungry hippo build being an exception). A few extra D6s simply do not scale with all the strait +s people have to damage. Without move+ full attack you just watch the archers with envy.
Archers have been broken for ages. They don't have to deal with terrain and flying creatures like meleers do. They don't have to move to full-attack like meleers do. And they don't have to put themselves in harms way like meleers do. The only down side is a rather restrictive and monochromatic feat tree that is pretty much a requirement for all archers. Quite frankly I would prefer playing an archer if it was less effective combat-wise but did not require the restrictive feat tree.
|
|
Archers have been broken for ages. They don't have to deal with terrain and flying creatures like meleers do. They don't have to move to full-attack like meleers do. And they don't have to put themselves in harms way like meleers do. The only down side is a rather restrictive and monochromatic feat tree that is pretty much a requirement for all archers. Quite frankly I would prefer playing an archer if it was less effective combat-wise but did not require the restrictive feat tree.
Are archers supposed to be performing like melee or are melee supposed to be performing like archers? Pounce puts it towards the latter.
|
|
Are archers supposed to be performing like melee or are melee supposed to be performing like archers? Pounce puts it towards the latter.
Archers have been broken for ages. They don't have to deal with terrain and flying creatures like meleers do. They don't have to move to full-attack like meleers do. And they don't have to put themselves in harms way like meleers do. The only down side is a rather restrictive and monochromatic feat tree that is pretty much a requirement for all archers. Quite frankly I would prefer playing an archer if it was less effective combat-wise but did not require the restrictive feat tree.
Personally, I'd prefer the former. But that is just my opinion.
|
If more NPCs had adequate gear, like wind wall and fickle winds scrolls, the archers wouldn't seem so great. Even simple obscuring mist shuts down most archers that I have seen because they are too cheap to buy the Goz Mask.
Also, sundering the main bow works well. NPCs need more adamantine weapons to make this happen as well. Because monsters with huge STR can already do it. In fact, I would totally have a scenario with some sunder thugs with adamantine weapons backed up by something like snooze witch as a higher or mid level encounter.
Basically, NPCs need PC wealth and you would see the worm turn quite a bit in some of these combats. In my homebrew, I frequently have NPCs with MORE wealth than the PCs.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
** spoiler omitted **
|
|
If more NPCs had adequate gear, like wind wall and fickle winds scrolls, the archers wouldn't seem so great.
This. Works on gunslingers, too. Not every scenario, of course, but there are few scenarios that penalize ranged characters.
Maybe a custom item like a brooch of shielding[/i which works on physical projectiles, or one-use items that could activate a [i]wind wall or similar defense. (hmm... adds ideas to the RPG Superstar file...)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At this point, the Aspis Consortium would have to be brain dead to not issue anti-archer and anti-animal tech to every group of agents. It's like they never learn from loss after loss to Zen archers and large cats.
Unfortunately, none of them came back to headquarters to inform them about that. =)
|
I absolutely hate the power creep that archery has become. My Eyes of the Ten outing went horribly due to it.
I spent a bunch of prestige retraining my alchemist into Beastmorph in order to get pounce finally at like level 10. But Pounce is still nowhere near as good as archery is in the scenarios. You can still only hit like 1-3 targets max on a pounce (and only if they're adjacent). Whereas with archers, you can shoot 360 at multiple targets w/ no feat necessary.
Granted, I think another reason that archery is so powerful is because one of its counters (cover) is often overlooked in the cases of dim light. And then you also have the exploit that I have seen people use with mirror image/seeking (and to some degree, seeking in general).
All in all, I don't think that Pounce (or pummeling charge in this case) should be banned when it is only somewhat putting melee on par with ranged.
|
|
You know, that makes me think. Maybe we should dual societies. Maybe we should have an Aspis Society as well and the convention events could be pvp.PVP is a very very bad idea, table variantion alone would ruin it.
It would have to be conducted in such a way as to be an actual tactical combat game, with no judgement calls at all from GMs. Likely impossible. Still, the Aspis needs to gather some credibility somehow.
|
|
I absolutely hate the power creep that archery has become. My Eyes of the Ten outing went horribly due to it.
** spoiler omitted **
I spent a bunch of prestige retraining my alchemist into Beastmorph in order to get pounce finally at like level 10. But Pounce is still nowhere near as good as archery is in the scenarios. You can still only hit like 1-3 targets max on a pounce (and only if they're adjacent). Whereas with archers, you can shoot 360 at multiple targets w/ no feat necessary.
Granted, I think another reason that archery is so powerful is because one of its counters (cover) is often overlooked in the cases of dim light. And then you also have the exploit that I have seen people use with mirror image/seeking (and to some degree, seeking in general).
All in all, I don't think that Pounce (or pummeling charge in this case) should be banned when it is only somewhat putting melee on par with ranged.
What balanced archery in previous additions (noticeably less damage) is an absent factor in Pathfinder. In particular, Clustered Shots and Deadly Aim are notable culprits in the theft of that balance.
Sure, a single arrow will not equal a two-handed fighter hit - but if your options are 2 greatsword swings at 2d6+19 with movement complications, or almost always full attacking with 4 effective shots (rapid + many) for 1d8+12 apiece, the lesser damage per hit seems less and less problematic.
|
|
I don't know either, because sneak attack is an epic fail at range.
Sniper goggles + 1 level of Wave Oracle with see through fog and fog cloud would like to have a word with you. Have a regular PFS player using this and its a pretty useful offensive and defensive trick. Not game breakingly so, but it gets the job done.
