Goblin Squad Member
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Am I the only one here who really REALLY hates the ALT economy or most MMOs?
I understand having Alts to play, learn new stuff on, and to make a "different" character but it seems like the popular opinion around here is pushing is that Alts should have little to no restrictions on trading from PC to PC, should be the primary AH market dominators, and should always be free from PvP since they have no interest being logged in for moments at a time let alone every leaving town.
I'd personally LOVE to see a system whereby items and equipment cannot ever be exchanged between characters when one of them is not gaining XP. I look at it like taxes, if you can't pay the bill for the PC, you shouldn't have access to any of the trading, reputations gates, or Marketplace since they are essentially homeless leeches that don't add anything to the system, instead they just move it around to make the game harder for others at their own profit.
Well, if there's one game where you actually do not need an Alt in the end, it's PFO. According to Nightdrifters calculator it only takes you 63 years to max out in *all* skills an feats. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with you Carbon, an Alt shouldn't just be a cost of doing business thing, they should be for entirely different purposes. Will I have a buisness/crafting alt? Sure, but it's because of how the game's training system works; 'mule' style alts are a ridiculous contrivance that just shouldn't need to exist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd personally LOVE to see a system whereby items and equipment cannot ever be exchanged between characters when one of them is not gaining XP. I look at it like taxes, if you can't pay the bill for the PC, you shouldn't have access to any of the trading, reputations gates, or Marketplace ...
I see player characters like characters in a story, each a player's protagonist. Characters in stories are always developing and changing. When they stop growing and stop learning, the story has come to an end. So it could be with characters in MMOs - they don't stop growing or learning until they are retired or set aside. Then their story is finished and the book closed for a while.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hardin Steele so you're telling me you think people will make caravans taking goods large distances without knowing the market at the destination?
A lot of the goods transfer action will not be for max price, but to work with allies for mutual benefit, to fulfill previous trade agreements, share resources, or supply a friend in need during wartime. In cases like that, price is not an issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with restricting non-xp-gaining alt activity is that the players who can afford to pay for multiple accounts will still have alts. They'll just be alts accumulating piles of unspent xp.
Agreed, but at least they are paying for it instead of gaming the pay system to do it. You can't stop people from using alts to gain mechanical advantages, but you can remove some of the 'unnecessary' mechanics that make it a big advantage and in other cases make it so they really have to 'want it' (in this case pay multiple subs) without restricting the average player. Everyone wins, the alt makers get what they want, the devs get money for it, and players get the robust economy.
Is it perfect? No. Can it be perfect? No. Is it a fine line they have to walk in making these calls? Certainly.
Something else that is overlooked, the alts are actually good for the in game economy overall. It means more goods moving around and prices should reflect this. Will there be weird spikes? Sure, but the more players in the market the harder it is for an individual to have a large or long lasting impact. They're just bad for player experience and dev revenue purposes.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Maybe that Trader is not even planning on collecting the goods he buys...As long as the money is transferred immediately when the Buy Order is placed, that shouldn't be a problem.
Since physical presence is not needed, a lot of gamemechanics are being circumvented, like Reputation, Alignment, Faction, Wars and Feuds.That's a really good point, and compelling enough for me to change my mind. As long as the information is available, I don't see a lot of downside in there being a possibility that someone else will have already bought the goods you traveled to get. However, I do see a lot of downside in letting folks buy something remotely when they wouldn't be allowed in the Settlement to buy it directly.He lost the money, but he does not really care because he is so rich. I am talking about someone who is consistently buying every resource of a certain AH up untill a certain price, basically wrecking that AH for local users. Obviously the sellers on that AH will put up those resources at ever higher prices, untill that remote buyer reaches his cutoff point, but at that point the AH has become useless for local buyers who now have to buy coal at 3 silver a piece, instead of the normal 10-30 copper. So now they have to resort to direct trading, rendering their costly AH useless.
And in the end, the buyer still has that cache of Coal stored there, and may well be able to somehow move the goods out of there too.
Superrich dude + remote buying feature + no way to block/restrict access to your AH = potential for Economic griefing.
So either no remote buying, or Settlements should be able to opt out of the GLobal buying thing. That seems like a pretty easy fix. If you want lots of potential buyers from around the world, take the risk and open up your AH; if you do not want people to mess with your AH, then close it off. Or just open it up to friendly folk: members of friendly settlements, certain factions,...
That's not economic griefing, it's bad business. Or possibly good business. If someone wants to drive the price up, provide him all he offers to buy.
Likewise if someone tries to dump the price, buy it and relist it at the market price.
... why in the world would you not be able to log into characters not gaining xp?"We don't want a game full of folks who trained for 6 months, got reasonably competent, and are now playing without producing any revenue."
Gotta give GW credit, their financial game is pretty well-developed.
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Am I the only one here who really REALLY hates the ALT economy or most MMOs?
I understand having Alts to play, learn new stuff on, and to make a "different" character but it seems like the popular opinion around here is pushing is that Alts should have little to no restrictions on trading from PC to PC, should be the primary AH market dominators, and should always be free from PvP since they have no interest being logged in for moments at a time let alone every leaving town.
I'd personally LOVE to see a system whereby items and equipment cannot ever be exchanged between characters when one of them is not gaining XP. I look at it like taxes, if you can't pay the bill for the PC, you shouldn't have access to any of the trading, reputations gates, or Marketplace since they are essentially homeless leeches that don't add anything to the system, instead they just move it around to make the game harder for others at their own profit.
Double post: ??
Is it that serious? There are other ways to limit such things.
DT is gonna be an alt regardless. So, basically, then the game is only playable for DT people. They will get to abuse the system, but no one else... I guess because they paid the tax?
People are gonna know the world market regardless, also.
If you wanna make the system so no alts, then make no f2p period. F2p might be a good business model, but it ruins games. Sooner or later, people find a way to exploit it.
If every char had a subbed account with 4 slots or whatever is "average", it would be a non issue. All of this financial wiggling is going to be a headache because, more than likely, there will be loopholes. And it's like the rep system: it hurts the person who isn't playing against the grain. Cuz they get limited where as the people who will do whatever it takes will find a way.
I really feel like the game system should be designed to stop this. It's not hard to be creative. But the issue then is that games want to bleed every cent out of people. Many metaphors... like "Do you think if you get a membership to a gym, you get all services..." but the issue is that gaming used to be free beyond initial purchase. Now, we have decided we will pay a company per month, and they still want more. They want to have half sub micro-transaction characters who will, as I said, destroy the economy. It is inevitable.
But, people still play games with bad economies. Especially if they got destiny twins plus understand how to game the system.
When they said, "You can have as many characters as you want!" naive me didn't think they meant "if you sub them...!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I am paying for a sub I cannot see why I can't have alts I have given a few thousand xp and called it good, crafting cheap low level items, without you charging me another fee. It's not gaining xp so it will not progress unless I move the xp tap so those DT accounts will still have a major leg up or I could pay for a second tap of xp and be equal for a price. Making my $15 give me access to only one character at a time period, not being able to even login to others seems like a really bad value compared to every other game in the market. I know ya'll are trying to do something new but do you really think the low end markets are going to stay well stocked without alts crafting? I think higher crafters will do their best to keep their queue running with the highest stuff they can put out as close to full time as they can manage. Without a constant influx of new or permanent low end crafters the market will dry up and new players will struggle to get gear and materials. If there is a facet I have missed please point it out to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not to mention sometimes you just want to do something else in game without the pressures of your normal groups or in spite of choices made on your main. Logging into an alt can scratch that itch, but it isn't something I would pay another sub for, and I don't think you should.
I think a better approach is to find a way to incentivize the behavior you want rather than giving your players the feeling you are giving them a lesser value for their money. I know that is how I feel about the idea of getting access to only one character for my sub and I don't think I am alone in this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Jazzlfraz, Decius and Karlbob
I agree there is a lot of gray area here, and it is hard to predict what players will come up with that is actually cool emergent gameplay.
It is more the worry: Ultra-rich dude + boredom = finding extremes on how to break or mess with the system.
But I guess that is something GW will eventually have to address, no need really to anticipate too much on that already and try to cement shut all possible loopholes beforehand. I am not a fan of that anyway, because it usually stifles any fun emergent gameplay too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Jazzlfraz, Decius and Karlbob
It is more the worry: Ultra-rich dude + boredom = finding extremes on how to break or mess with the system.
That was a major issue in a game I will not name. One particular player had been in an accident and was restricted to a wheel chair and also recieved a very big insurance payout. Being stuck in a wheel chair he was online 24/7 and he literally spent thousands of dolalrs a week on multiple alts and pay to win items. You really did not want to upset him in game, your character would be impossible to play.
He pretty much totally dominated the particular server for a year or more until he tragically died from complications in an operation related to his injuries.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am planning on playing four characters in game, and paying a sub fee so they all four gain XPs all the time. I obviously can’t play all four at once, but since each will be gaining their own XPs they can advance in the direction they want to go. Cleric, fighter/paladin, rogue and wizard. The gathering and crafting skills will be secondary and apparently there will be plenty of gatherer/crafter mains that won’t want to engage in PvP like most of us.
So, my characters will gather a little while out adventuring and provide limited materials to the crafting network, but their main function will be to support their chosen settlement, build structures, defend the residents, recruit new members, support friends and allies, and fight enemies when needed.
I am willing to pay for the fun of that. And I will lobby against any system that seeks to undermine what I am paying for, and thousands of non-paying alts flooding the system with materials and goods undermines the system. It would (I suspect) be in Goblinworks’ interests to limit the viability of non-paying alts to keep paying customers, like me, happy and paying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good for you wanting to have 4 characters. I have a smaller budget and don't want to feel like this game is giving me less for the same amount of money as other comparable games. There are issues with EVE's system in some regards but locking paying customers out of all but one character unless they pay more is a bad idea I think. There has to be a less jarring system.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I am planning on playing four characters in game, and paying a sub fee so they all four gain XPs all the time. I obviously can’t play all four at once, but since each will be gaining their own XPs they can advance in the direction they want to go. Cleric, fighter/paladin, rogue and wizard. The gathering and crafting skills will be secondary and apparently there will be plenty of gatherer/crafter mains that won’t want to engage in PvP like most of us.
So, my characters will gather a little while out adventuring and provide limited materials to the crafting network, but their main function will be to support their chosen settlement, build structures, defend the residents, recruit new members, support friends and allies, and fight enemies when needed.
I am willing to pay for the fun of that. And I will lobby against any system that seeks to undermine what I am paying for, and thousands of non-paying alts flooding the system with materials and goods undermines the system. It would (I suspect) be in Goblinworks’ interests to limit the viability of non-paying alts to keep paying customers, like me, happy and paying.
Well, good luck maintaining the achievements up-to-date with your 4 characters. Since Ryan pretends that the average player should be always just up-to-date by playing the game normally with one character, well you will have to play four times more, than the average player. Lol.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about this;
Paying account
Gets 1 normal account per sub and 2 alt slots. These alts gain no xp, but are able to be logged into freely. They are limited to only the first 5 craft slots and can gain no more than that. They get half rep gain and also cannot activate cash shop items (as in place, not locking out access all together, IE they can't place the base camp but can other wise use it), or participate in settlement management or building other than assisting with gathering resources.
They can make as many characters as want but only switching XP earner is instant, alt switching takes an hour and has a 24 hour CD.
Free account
Gets 1 free slot per account. This character gains XP at 50% rate/hour and also has reduced rep gain. Otherwise it has the same access as an alt of a paid account. They can create other characters but are able to log in only to the one currently gaining xp and switching, while instant is limited to once per 24 hours and no more than 3 times in a week.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe they should go to a hybrid of an old fashioned sub-system, and their XP system.
So for 15 dollars a month per account, you are allowed to make and login 3 characters. The XP that comes with this base sub(72000 per month) you can divide between those 3 characters as you wish.
Some will divide it nicely between all 3, some will just use 2 alts for looking up stuff on a local AH or scouting purposes without ever spending XP on them. If you want more xp to hand out to your 3 characters, buy an extra gametime package. Cant buy more then 3x72000 xp per month for a single account though, and can only spend 72000 max on a single char per month.
When you stop paying the base 15 dollar sub, none of the characters can log in. This way GW will always be earning money from playing customers.
Apart from this, some FTP Trial with all sorts of restrictions to have a low hurdle of entry to try out the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know ya'll are trying to do something new but do you really think the low end markets are going to stay well stocked without alts crafting? I think higher crafters will do their best to keep their queue running with the highest stuff they can put out as close to full time as they can manage. Without a constant influx of new or permanent low end crafters the market will dry up and new players will struggle to get gear and materials. If there is a facet I have missed please point it out to me.
I'll point out that you seem to be assuming that there will be new players, but none of them will want to run crafters.
Which struck me, actually, like an epiphany. Is there this demand for crafting alts because the "adventurer" players simply cannot imagine someone choosing to play a crafter main?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll point out that you seem to be assuming that there will be new players, but none of them will want to run crafters.
Which struck me, actually, like an epiphany. Is there this demand for crafting alts because the "adventurer" players simply cannot imagine someone choosing to play a crafter main?
Well that's an interesting observation that I would say is mostly true. The big problem is that crafting as an activity is a fairly short and uninvolved play cycle compared to combat. Plus combat is required to advance in crafting (via recipe drops) therefore maining as a crafter is kind of boring (you rely on your buddies to feed you the combat stuff) and/or incredibly hard (you do it yourself with most of your xp NOT in combat skills).
On the flip side a combat character is going to be focusing most of their XP into their combat roles. If they spend valuable XP on crafting that character will be progressing slower for combat but will lose some XP efficiency. But they gain a theoretical secondary source of income, but not as good as the dedicated crafter.
So to be efficient you want to pick one or the other and a lot of people value effieciency (sometimes just because it feels like the right way to play successfully), therefore a lot of people will split crafting into secondary alts that their combat main feeds items too.
Ultimately the root of this problem is that crafting is not a particularly involved or engaging mechanic in most games. Currently at worst it's click and forget (WoW style) and at best it's about planning, logistics, and relationships (EVE, the act of crafting is still click and forget). (Notable exception to some degree: Vanguard) If it was as well fleshed out and time consuming as normal combat with the same level of 'play skill' required and it wasn't intrinsically tied to the combat system you would see a lot more 'main' crafting characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll point out that you seem to be assuming that there will be new players, but none of them will want to run crafters.
Which struck me, actually, like an epiphany. Is there this demand for crafting alts because the "adventurer" players simply cannot imagine someone choosing to play a crafter main?
Well that's an interesting observation that I would say is mostly true. The big problem is that crafting as an activity is a fairly short and uninvolved play cycle compared to combat. Plus combat is required to advance in crafting (via recipe drops) therefore maining as a crafter is kind of boring (you rely on your buddies to feed you the combat stuff) and/or incredibly hard (you do it yourself with most of your xp NOT in combat skills).
On the flip side a combat character is going to be focusing most of their XP into their combat roles. If they spend valuable XP on crafting that character will be progressing slower for combat but will lose some XP efficiency. But they gain a theoretical secondary source of income, but not as good as the dedicated crafter.
So to be efficient you want to pick one or the other and a lot of people value effieciency (sometimes just because it feels like the right way to play successfully), therefore a lot of people will split crafting into secondary alts that their combat main feeds items too.
Ultimately the root of this problem is that crafting is not a particularly involved or engaging mechanic in most games. Currently at worst it's click and forget (WoW style) and at best it's about planning, logistics, and relationships (EVE, the act of crafting is still click and forget). (Notable exception to some degree: Vanguard) If it was as well fleshed out and time consuming as normal combat with the same level of 'play skill' required and it wasn't intrinsically tied to the combat system you would see a lot more 'main' crafting characters.
You have a point.
I think I will see my Crafter also as a Trader and a Courier. Maybe even a Harvester, though I feel he needs some COmbat prowess for that.
I agree with you that lining up a series of crafting tasks is not that much work. The most efficient crafters are probably those people who can afford to log in several times a day to add a few jobs to the queue.
So I think the brunt of the work (or "play) of a crafter will be to gather resources and/or transport goods. Working the auctionhouse will certainly be a part of his gameplay, however checking a single AH is not that much work either. So I am thinking that someone who has a Crafter Main will probably have to go out in the world and buy up those resources, and spread those goods he makes to all corners of the land.
Now this is supposed to be in the realm of the Merchant but I am hoping that some mixing and matching is possible here. I have not read anything about a Merchant being a full time profession that will take you 2.5 years to Max in all skills he needs. I guess a Merchant that can run Caravans will be costly to make: too much xp will have to come from the pool that is supposed to be used for the crafter.
But I can see a role for the Crafter/Courier, making use of Fast Travel.
This would be dangerous but that is part of the fun. Craft something good that is made from local resources, hop on a Pony Ride (Fast Travel) to a far away destination, hope you make it alive, sell your craft on the local AH there for a nice price, then browse their AH and see if you can take home any deals/ cheap resources tha are local.
I hope this is possible. I am thinking Caravans are more for those huge shipments and Bulk Goods that are needed for the upkeep of a town: I am hoping there is room for Transporting specialty items and smaller quantities of high priced resources by single players. Always at a risk off course, because bandits and SAD and local Wars and Feuds and Factions and such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also Destiny's Twin seems to encourage alts but now being told they don't want alts. I'm not trying to take away from DT, I'm just confused by intent when a major perk of the KickStarter does one thing but Devs state they want the opposite and will enforce it with draconian means.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have a DT, but they don't really bother me. Some will be used as crafting alts, yes. Some players will have spare subscriptions to run crafting alts as well. When the subscription count is at 20,000 accounts, the DTs will be a small number. But if every subscription were allowed one or two unpaid low-end crafting alts, then there would likely be 20-40k spare low-end crafters when there were 20k subscribers. There would be almost zero early game opportunities for starting crafter mains.
In one way I pity the DT holders. They will be under a lot of pressure from their company and settlement to use their DT as a crafter alt for the town. They might have gotten the DT with the dream of roleplaying a fighter and also roleplaying a wizard, with some mysterious connection between the two. Many such dreams will be crushed, because it's much more efficient to yoke those DTs to the engine of progress.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No other game allows you only one character, period, for your $15/month and I think it is a poor value if this game wants to go that route.
If you can log in any character that is currently earning exp, and you can change what character is earning exp instantly (as is the case in Alpha), then this restriction is essentially "only one character logged in at a time" which is not unreasonable compared to other subscription MMOs.
If assigning exp gain to a character becomes something that can only be changed on a daily or weekly basis, then it requires a bit more planning, but you still have the option of maintaining several characters at various levels of training, and rotating between which ones you play.
Personally, I think one of the biggest innovations of PFO is that your Settlement stats are more important to your power and in-game options than your individual character sheet, and I think that anything that discourages disposable alts will reinforce that design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also Destiny's Twin seems to encourage alts but now being told they don't want alts. I'm not trying to take away from DT, I'm just confused by intent when a major perk of the KickStarter does one thing but Devs state they want the opposite and will enforce it with draconian means.
DT was not typical, and is not representative of the game's intent. It was a semi-desperate action taken when they were at real risk of not making the kickstarter total and not getting any of the funds they'd spend a bunch of time raising. DT would not ever have existed if they didn't need a solid hook to get people to put money in the KS.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well that's an interesting observation that I would say is mostly true. The big problem is that crafting as an activity is a fairly short and uninvolved play cycle compared to combat. Plus combat is required to advance in crafting (via recipe drops) therefore maining as a crafter is kind of boring (you rely on your buddies to feed you the combat stuff) and/or incredibly hard (you do it yourself with most of your xp NOT in combat skills).I'll point out that you seem to be assuming that there will be new players, but none of them will want to run crafters.
Which struck me, actually, like an epiphany. Is there this demand for crafting alts because the "adventurer" players simply cannot imagine someone choosing to play a crafter main?
From another point of view, for a person who can't afford to invest more than a couple of hours a week and maybe half of that on PvE, the crafting role is almost ideal, because it means their character is contributing even when they aren't actively logged in. As long as you have companions to bring you mats and recipes, it's a role you can get good at without having to spend a lot of time in game.
If crafting is made sufficiently involved that it requires the same time commitment as all the other roles, then what is left for those who don't have that much time?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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No other game allows you only one character, period, for your $15/month and I think it is a poor value if this game wants to go that route.
Every Themepark MMO essentially has the same requirement that we do.
You can only advance a character in the Themepark games by playing it. So the act of logging in and playing the character means you only have 1 character per account that is "active".
You can do the same thing in our game by just switching the XP assignment to the character you wish to play for the duration of the time you wish to play it.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Plus combat is required to advance in crafting (via recipe drops) therefore maining as a crafter is kind of boring (you rely on your buddies to feed you the combat stuff) and/or incredibly hard (you do it yourself with most of your xp NOT in combat skills).
You should not be hunting mobs to get recipes. That's incredibly inefficient. You should buy them on the Auction House.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Whoah there! Desperate is a 4 letter word! The DT is the #1 perk given to players who gambled on the kickstarter, true. But they aren't game breaking and I don't think they denote any desperation on behalf of GW. At the end of the day the DT is nice but it's the people who have the most $$$ who will end up with the most training and characters.
They have already said that while you get to save money on the DT, full blown paid alts will be superior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No other game allows you only one character, period, for your $15/month and I think it is a poor value if this game wants to go that route.Every Themepark MMO essentially has the same requirement that we do.
You can only advance a character in the Themepark games by playing it. So the act of logging in and playing the character means you only have 1 character per account that is "active".
You can do the same thing in our game by just switching the XP assignment to the character you wish to play for the duration of the time you wish to play it.
That is true, Ryan, however I think people would like to have the option to log in a character that does not need any more XP in the eye of the player, yet is useful or fun for them to play. So that is why I proposed the hybrid system a few posts up.
This combines a basic sub-fee that is needed to log in *any* (of the three) characters on a certain account, and for the rest it uses your current XP system to actually develop the characters on that account.
The basic fee covers the XP of 1 character (72000 per month), they can buy extra game time if they want to develop the other characters on that account, and when they completely stop the sub-fee, then the entire account becomes unplayable.
So pay 15 dollars a month and play any character (up to three or four or whatever you decide is fair) that you have on that account, no matter if it is currently gaining xp; and buy extra xp if you want to develop any of your alts further.
You would still need some kind off restricted FTP trial or some, so people can get a taste of the game but that is a different issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The offering of DT was not done lightly, and I don't beleive it would ever have been offered if they weren't afraid of missing the target. It isn't about it being gamebreaking, it's about it being a costly perk. 6000 people who would normally have to pay twice or use a reduced-power alt now have two fully playable characters with identical XP for one price.
It does not fit their business model, and is not indicative of how they intend to run the system. I reiterate, DT's are not a good example to use for why people ought to be allowed to play free alts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And what happens if I switch to an alt to check something and intend to switch right back to my main which is the only one I want to progress, and I have a power outage or catastrophic computer failure? Am I screwed into having hours, possibly days of xp go into a character I never wanted it on in the first place?
Restrictions I can see and deal with but making nonXP toons inaccessible I can't get behind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Plus combat is required to advance in crafting (via recipe drops) therefore maining as a crafter is kind of boring (you rely on your buddies to feed you the combat stuff) and/or incredibly hard (you do it yourself with most of your xp NOT in combat skills).You should not be hunting mobs to get recipes. That's incredibly inefficient. You should buy them on the Auction House.
Which were gathered by other people hunting mobs. Ultimately, *someone* has to go hunt the mobs. You'll also note he did say you could have your friends hand you drops to bypass that need.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which were gathered by other people hunting mobs. Ultimately, *someone* has to go hunt the mobs. You'll also note he did say you could have your friends hand you drops to bypass that need.Plus combat is required to advance in crafting (via recipe drops) therefore maining as a crafter is kind of boring (you rely on your buddies to feed you the combat stuff) and/or incredibly hard (you do it yourself with most of your xp NOT in combat skills).You should not be hunting mobs to get recipes. That's incredibly inefficient. You should buy them on the Auction House.
I think he means that a *Crafter* does not really need to go out and fetch his recipes himself, others are more likely to get their hands on those. I think most recipes will come from players that are squashing escalations, or hunting for kill achievements, then sell the Recipes or hand them to guildies.
I mean, no way will my crafter have enough Combatprowess to get his hands on tier 3 recipes himself. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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No other game allows you only one character, period, for your $15/month and I think it is a poor value if this game wants to go that route.Every Themepark MMO essentially has the same requirement that we do.
You can only advance a character in the Themepark games by playing it. So the act of logging in and playing the character means you only have 1 character per account that is "active".
You can do the same thing in our game by just switching the XP assignment to the character you wish to play for the duration of the time you wish to play it.
I strongly disagree.
Any themepark allows me to play as much as I want, after I prepay for time (or for some in-game bonuses AND my actions directly affect my character's progress). If I spend enough time per day advancing 3-4 toons, I do not get automatically disadvanged (esp. forever, in irrepairable manner, like in PFO).PFO directly links character XP progression to paid real time, and until enough time passes, it doesn't make much sense to even log my character, since nothing important would change for her, whatever I do. Basically, this game at alpha stage allows much *less* meaningful activity, than any of themeparks.
Basically, you using the EVE payment system, when people NOT playing the game keep paying for their accounts, because RL money is the only source of progress - and because they know the lost months (lost on a second charcter after switch etc) can't be replaced by any effort of theirs. No themepark is doing that to their players, so I dn't think the comparison would work well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should not be hunting mobs to get recipes. That's incredibly inefficient. You should buy them on the Auction House.Which were gathered by other people hunting mobs. Ultimately, *someone* has to go hunt the mobs.
I believe Ryan is referring to the expectation that adventurers playing normally will acquire Recipes, which they will sell on the AH.
So, hunting mobs looking for particular Recipes is incredibly inefficient. Hunting mobs looking for Recipes (and Expendables) in general is worthwhile, but don't expect to get the Recipes you need that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Plus combat is required to advance in crafting (via recipe drops) therefore maining as a crafter is kind of boring (you rely on your buddies to feed you the combat stuff) and/or incredibly hard (you do it yourself with most of your xp NOT in combat skills).You should not be hunting mobs to get recipes. That's incredibly inefficient. You should buy them on the Auction House.
I definitely agree, but what else are you going to do on your "main" crafter besides manage your queues every few hours at best? The only activity I currently know of is follow your combat buddies around looking for gushers since you need each other for those and they are the primary source of materials to support your crafting.
I suppose 'hauling' could be another activity but I was under the impression that would be a separate set of skills under commoner which just adds another facet competing for your XP just to fill out your play time.
I think my points really coalesce around combat roles seeming to be the only skills that if you focus on them you always have content/activities you can engage in; whether you're alone, with friends, far from home, etc...
Or are you thinking that crafters will end up being the primary 'traders' spending their time researching and having goods moved around while waiting for craft queues?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyncale & Duffy,
While I cant answer your questions above, in my company I have two primary crafters who have taken up medium armor [Archer feat] and longbow [with basic feats/training] and have joined the other party members/adventurers in our activities when they are not crafting (thus helping the group to be more successful, gather more coins, loot, raw materials, recipes...) and have been a great addition and they enjoy getting achievements along the way. They haven't been bored yet, and the XP spent on support combat skills is minimal. So, for them they found something to do while stile being crafters. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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My main will be a refiner - I plan to spend 80% or more of my xp on my main skill or on feats to get attributes high enough to buy more skill. I do not know if I will have any alts - I think one character will keep me busy enough.
I will participate in PvE as well as gathering. From my experience in Alpha, halfway competent teams with even low levels of combat abilities can take on a lot of stuff. If a 3 or 4-character team of adventurers can kill almost any escalation group, you might ask, why would they bother rounding out their party with 2 or 3 low-level adventurers or low-combat crafters? Well... you do get slightly more/better drops, but more importantly, once encumbrance is in the game you'll get almost twice as many drops before you turn back to bank your stuff.
A low-combat crafter will, with a little imagination, be able to stay fully occupied, just like a brand new adventurer will have uses. Not everyone needs to be at the top of the combat ladder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess with that revelation I'm slightly irked at the idea that crafters out in the wild are passive buff mules trailing behind their significantly more competent and engaged friends. Which just seems to encourage crafting alts even more. I think crafters are possibly too dependent on others and are not particularly good (skill wise) at the other activities to make them feel engaged when participating cross role like that.
(Personal taste somewhat enters this equation. I personally can't stand wandering around doing very little but picking up loot while everyone else is doing something productive and engaging. That seems to indicate to me that certain roles are tailored to certain personal preferences in terms of activity and engagement which I can't decide if it's a good or bad thing.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the low level characters have to be passive buff mules. I think that with a small amount of training they can certainly contribute in combats. Just because 3-4 mid to high level adventurers can take down a group of mobs doesn't mean that the group doesn't fall faster with an additional 2-3 characters; sometimes those additional low level guys will provide the damage that means the boss falls before the party tank.
Just because you don't care to play a crafting character with second-rate combat abilities doesn't mean someone else can't or won't do it. Like you say, personal taste.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I'm running a mage at level 6. Slowly trying to figure out how to get an 11 Int so I can go to level 7 but I'm in no hurry to do so.
So a lot of xp is spent on harvest and low level crafting/refining skills [if it costs less than a 1000 xp, I will get it]. I happen to like wandering around killing stuff, harvesting stuff and then going back to town and craft some basic stuff. And if one of our crafters or our Pexx Mule is around, I turn over all the crafting stuff I either made or the raw stuff gathered.
It's what floats my boat and keeps me engaged in the game nearly every day, being able to do all of those things. If I concentrated on only one thing, I might not log in every day and may only log in 2-3 times a week.
Not everyone else wants to be like that. They want to excel at one or two things. But I always like to be able to do a little of most things, and being slightly above average on my main thing. So I don't really have any complaints about the game.
I am just hoping that some kind of company or village warehouse becomes available soon where I can dump what I gather and anyone in our company or member of our village can take what they need to make what we need. 'cause I really don't know what to do with the 600 or so esoterica essences I've gathered up.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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what else are you going to do on your "main" crafter besides manage your queues every few hours at best?
The people in EVE who spend their time focused on economic concerns spend their time searching for pricing arbitrage - looking for places to buy low and sell high.
They also spend their time trying to get as close as possible to total production efficiency. Even slicing tiny percentages off of their costs can give them a pricing advantage in the market that allows them to squeeze out the competition. Those advantages sometimes come from things they can do to their characters like training certain abilities, but most of the time they come from figuring out how to reduce the total cost of the inputs to their economic engine - and time is a big part of that cost structure so they'll be constantly trying to figure out how to increase the rate of production of a material, decrease the time it takes to get that material from place to place, etc.
Because warfare between corporations shifts locations and tactics continuously there is no stead-state in the economy. The thing "everyone needed" last week might fall out of demand, and something new will take its place. So the economic masters are never able to just reach a point of "perfect economic capability" and go on autopilot. They are continuously updating their information and using those updates to change their logistics chains.
In other words, they're playing a game above the combat mechanic. A more holistic game that treats the people fighting as just a small part of the whole. These masters of the economy might spend 10 hours a day "playing the game", and never undock from a station or fly from place to place, or do anything with their ships.
We want that in our game too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ultimately the root of this problem is that crafting is not a particularly involved or engaging mechanic in most games. Currently at worst it's click and forget (WoW style) and at best it's about planning, logistics, and relationships (EVE, the act of crafting is still click and forget). (Notable exception to some degree: Vanguard) If it was as well fleshed out and time consuming as normal combat with the same level of 'play skill' required and it wasn't intrinsically tied to the combat system you would see a lot more 'main' crafting characters.
Everquest 2 made crafting a mini-game. You could pay close attention to the mini-game to create maximum quality items, or let the mini-game run mostly unattended to create lower quality items. Creating an item was almost equivalent to a solo combat encounter.
Some people liked it because it wasn't "push button, receive crafted item". Others hated it because it was far more time consuming than click and forget item creation. Still others hated it because they saw crafting as something to let run in the background while chatting with other crafters, and they didn't like being distracted from their conversations by the mini-game.
During a crafting round without a complication, the same set of skills could be activated to increase the quality of the final product, or to hurry the item to completion at its current quality level.
During each crafting round, the item moved a little closer to completion, and the potential quality dropped a little. The mini-game ended when the item reached 100% completion, or the potential quality reached 0%.
Initially, each item could be completed at several quality levels (6? 9? I forget). Later, the number of potential quality levels was greatly reduced. If I recall correctly, at that point greater success just produced extra copies of the item.