So the Rondelero Duelist fighter archetype has this feature:
At 5th level, a buckler duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a buckler duelist may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
Ok, just let me get this straight... if I have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, using a falcata and a buckler, at, say, level 12...
Could I get +10/+5/+0 falcata attacks, then replace my buckler off-hand attacks with another 10/+5/+0 falcata attacks?
If so, considering the crazy sweet falcata critical stats, wouldn't this be best optimized by focusing only on the falcata and forgoing shield bashes?
Thanks!
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I came here expecting a thread about the strong swim trait.
However, this is far more interesting. I would say that the intent of the rules is that when making a full attack (without TWF) you can TWF for free (though why you would ever choose to attack with the buckler baffles me).
However, by RAW, I think you might be right in allowing you to substitute all your off hand buckler attacks for Falcata attacks.
However, i believe the avoidance of the TWF penalties does not apply if you are also actually using the TWF rules to gain extra attacks.
I think by the spirit of the rules, if you were TWF, you could make your full number off off hand attacks with the buckler, and any combination of Falcata and buckler attacks with your primary.
I am interested to see what others have to say though.
As you can see in the OP, I don't think I don't incur TWF penalties, of course. But the idea of Flurry of Blows with a Falcata is pretty interesting, and certainly worth losing Bravery and a feat for the Exotic Weapon proficiency... that critical range, amirite?
Another great thing about this archetype is that you get to DOUBLE DIP WEAPON TRAINING thanks to that feature!
Add a sample build:
Male Goblin (Monkey) fighter 12 Archetypes Rondelero Duelist,
None Small humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +5, Senses low-light vision; Perception +13
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DEFENSE
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AC 28, touch 18, flat-footed 23 (+6 armor, +1 deflection, +5 Dex, +4 shield, +1 size ), Combat Expertise
hp 78 ((12d10)+12)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +9, +2 vs Fear
Resistances fear,
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OFFENSE
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Speed 20 ft. Climb 30 ft.
Melee falcata +2 (small/keen) +28/+23/+18 (1d6+17/15-20/x3)
Full attack falcata +2 (small/keen) +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16 (1d6+17/15-20/x3)
Special Attacks Buckler Bash, Buckler Catch, Chopping Blow, Strong Swing,
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STATISTICS
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Str 22, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 5,
Base Atk +12; CMB +17 (+19 disarm); CMD 34 (40 vs disarm) (38 vs sunder)
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Falcata), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (Falcata), Greater Weapon Specialization (Falcata), Improved Critical (Falcata), Improved Disarm, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Falcata), Weapon Specialization (Falcata)
Skills Acrobatics +18, Climb +26, Knowledge (Local) +14, Perception +13, Ride +8, Stealth +25, Swim +9,
Traits Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith,
Languages Common, Draconic, Goblin
SQ armor training, armor training, bonus feats, prehensile tail, weapon and armor proficiency, weapon training,
Combat Gear
Other Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier, headband of mental prowess (int/wis) +2, falcata +2 (small/keen), ring of protection +1, gloves of dueling, belt of giant strength +4, cloak of resistance +3, kikko armor +1 (small/ghost touch), buckler +3 (small/light fortification), 347.0 gp
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Armor Expert You have worn armor as long as you can remember, either as part of your training to become a knight's squire or simply because you were seeking to emulate a hero. When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit's armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
Armor Training (Ex) You are more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever you are wearing armor, you reduce the armor check penalty by 0 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by +0
Armor Training (Ex) You are more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever you are wearing armor, you reduce the armor check penalty by 1 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by +1
Bonus Feats At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called "fighter bonus feats." Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Buckler Bash (Ex) You can perform a shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical modifier as for a light shield).
Buckler Catch (Ex) You can catch you opponent's weapon between your buckler and your forearm, effectively wedging the hafts of polearms and hammers or the flats of blades. This functions as a disarm combat maneuver, and you gain a +4 bonus on the roll. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you suffer a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
Chopping Blow (Ex) You can make a single melee attack with a falcata. If the attack hits, you may make a sunder combat maneuver against the target of your attack as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Headband of Intellect Skill Selection (Knowledge (Local))
Indomitable Faith You were born in a region where your faith was not popular, yet you never abandoned it. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Will saves as a result.
Prehensile Tail (Ex) Monkey Goblins cannot wield weapons with their tails but they can use them to retrieve small objects as a swift action
Resistance to Fear (Ex) You may add 2 points to any saving throw to resist Fear effects.
Strong Swing (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. With a full-attack action, you may alternate between using your falcata or your buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Weapon Training (Ex) Attacks with a weapon from listed groups, gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls. (Included in weapon blocks) Heavy Blades +3
That's:
Full attack falcata +2 (small/keen) +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16 (1d6+17/15-20/x3)
Pretty dang sweet for level 12 when full attacking.
The question is how could we reliably full attack.
Didn't that archetype come out before it was clear that you could use your shield as a normal weapon? The shield originally said "as an off-hand attack you can bash" thus implying that you could only attack with it while TWF, but then since it was listed as a normal weapon in the weapon list Paizo decided to remove the "as an off-hand" part of it's description. This all means that this archetype was to make sure you could attack with either with no penalties since the thought was you normally couldn't attack with the shield as a "normal" weapon.
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Alternating doesn't mean you're adding off hand attacks. It says right in the description of the ability you quoted that it doesn't add extra attacks like twf does.
This is still a very powerful option. you can devote your highest iterative to disarm via buckler catch ability or shield slam prone the guy, then spend the rest of the attacks with your suped up falcata nailing the guy at +4 to hit due to prone or regular damage.
Alternating doesn't mean you're adding off hand attacks. It says right in the description of the ability you quoted that it doesn't add extra attacks like twf does.
This is still a very powerful option. you can devote your highest iterative to disarm via buckler catch ability or shield slam prone the guy, then spend the rest of the attacks with your suped up falcata nailing the guy at +4 to hit due to prone or regular damage.
The idea he is presenting is comboing this ability with TWF and the like. Now this ability doesn't grant you extra attacks, but the TWF does. Now since you're doing a full-attack action you swap out the off-hand buckler attacks with falcata attacks using this ability. Thus at lv 5 you can get two falcata attacks if you use TWF.
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Sorry Chess Pwn but I play a Ftr 9 Rondelero Duelist in PFS and you can't add the TWF feat attacks when using this option. The ability is quite clear. It does allow you to use the shield as the main (highest iterative) attack though.
At level 9, I have two iterative attacks: +9/+4
Depending on the situation I can falcata twice, buckler twice, falcata +9 buckler +4, buckler +9 falcata +4.
(instead of falcata-falcata-buckler at +7/+2/+7)
@Purple Dragon Knight: That would mean you are able to flurry with a falcata when using your buckler in your main hand and your falcata in your off hand.
Saying you can replace falcata attacks and not buckler attacks has no sustain in the rules.
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I don't understand why you're talking about flurry... I'm confused. This ability has nothing to do with flurry of blows. It also specifies that you can't use it when you add attacks with TWF. Sorry, but your dream of creating 6 falcata attacks with Greater Two Weapon Fighting cannot happen with this ability. You're misunderstanding the purpose of the ability: Rondelero Duelist is not a damage monkey, he's a disarming or bashing monkey, then when the enemy is weaponless or prone, you go in for the kill with falcata only.
This ability allows you to use both falcata and shield together without suffering the usual -2 associated with TWF, but in exchange you don't get the extra TWF attack(s). It allows you to keep your full attack bonus against tough opponents or bosses.... against the crappy minions, GREATER TWF away though! ;)
I don't understand why you're talking about flurry... I'm confused. This ability has nothing to do with flurry of blows. It also specifies that you can't use it when you add attacks with TWF. Sorry, but your dream of creating 6 falcata attacks with Greater Two Weapon Fighting cannot happen with this ability. You're misunderstanding the purpose of the ability: Rondelero Duelist is not a damage monkey, he's a disarming or bashing monkey, then when the enemy is weaponless or prone, you go in for the kill with falcata only.
This ability allows you to use both falcata and shield together without suffering the usual -2 associated with TWF, but in exchange you don't get the extra TWF attack(s). It allows you to keep your full attack bonus against tough opponents or bosses.... against the crappy minions, GREATER TWF away though! ;)
1. Your conception of an archetype does not mean it has to be used that way. Just because the Magus has offensive potential does not mean it cannot be used for utility, etc.
2. The ability does not allow you to do what you say it does. The CORE RULES allow you to do that, per the FAQ cited before.
3. I read the text, the text does nothing to contradict my interpretation.
4. It's fine if you don't want to use it this way, but the rules, as stated, allow it.
5. "Flurry" is short hand for TWF with a single weapon at full STR bonus.
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@purple dragon,
How does strong swing preclude using it with TWF? The ability says it can't act like TWF, not can't be used with it. All it says about using the ability is that you must be using a full round attack, which you are doing when you TWF.
CASTING THREAD RESURRECTION!
Did someone ever give an answer to this? can a rondelero duelist with improved TWF using main/main/offhand/offand basically use his falcata four times per round with this?
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I think it’s pretty clear they can flurry. Any time you can attack with a buckler you can alternatively attack with your falcata instead. The ability is not granting additional attacks from TWF but technically that ability doesn’t need to even say that, since you can already twf with an offhand; twf simply reduces the penalty (it’s ITWF and GTWF that grant the bonus attacks)
This works the same way everything else does...
Using the archetype ability is a full attack action.
Using TWF is a full attack action.
They cannot be used simultaneously, just like everything else (Vital Strike, Cleave, literally everything with a specified action) unless you have something specific to override the general rule.
Does the archetype ability SPECIFY that it can be used in conjunction with another full attack action like TWF? No, it does not. But it does specify that using the ability is a full attack action.
The end.
PS. The archetype gives you the ability to bash with a buckler, which is otherwise unavailable without the Upsetting Shield Style feats. Which apparently was not brought up as an asset of the archetype in the previous/resurrected thread.
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So? You say that like it's a bad thing. Fighters are supposed to be able to get their damage through the roof. Let them have their fun, it's what martial characters are meant to do. An 11th level fighter SHOULD be able to deal 200+ damage a round. Limiting a martial character based on the amount of damage per round they can output is the GM's job, not the player. And at the end of the day if a GM told me it doesn't work the way I believe it does, fine.
TWF mechanics are used as part of a full-attack action. Strong Swing uses a full-attack action. Strong Swing doesn't say you can't use TWF with it; it merely states that this ability alone does not give you extra attacks.
Now that I'm thinking about it, if you get Bashing Finish you could potentially get even MORE attacks with your falcata, alternating your falcata for your buckler attack anytime you utilize Bashing Finish. That'd be fun if you're already getting 6+ attacks per round with a 17-20 crit range.
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I find myself using my buckler just to disarm the foe.... not that I need to, but it's fun. The bashing/bull rush option I almost never use.
And yes, I say that like it's a bad thing... if I do a crit I'm usually above the 100 dmg mark and that's with two attacks, sometimes only one attack! That's with the bard doing his thing next to me and other buffs from mages and clerics... Those buffs do stack, and enlarge person makes it bananas...
I 'really' don't think the Strong Swing ability can be use with TWF as that would be 2 full-attacks rolled into one.
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So, what exactly does the second part of Strong Swing do? You already can alternate between any weapons when you use a full attack action. Any character can do that. Only TWF grants you an offhand attack and even then it’s simply a designation. If a character has three arms, wielding three different weapons, twf, and 6 BAB, he can make a mainhand swing with the first, a mainhand swing with the second weapon at Bab-5, and an offhand swing with the third. Next round it could be the third weapon used twice as the main hand, the first weapon as an offhand and the second weapon forgotten.
So, what exactly does strong swing do, other than giving a bonus to hit and damage with a falcata and buckler? Because only TWF grants you offhand attacks, and according to you strong swing does not allow you to make any offhand attacks.
WITHOUT TWF...
You now have a offhand attack with your buckler.
This was never available before.
If your BAB allows extra attacks, you can use your buckler... this is actually a huge ability. Otherwise, you cannot bash with a buckler. Rules and stuff.
Giving you the ability to bash with a buckler is part of the archetype...
To say that the ability allows you to substitute every Shield Bash with a Falcata strike is literally insane.
No, you have exactly as many attacks as you had before.
You can substitute a Falcata attack for a Buckler attack. This is clear.
It doesn't give you the ability to freely substitute Buckler attacks for Falcata attacks... does it? Where do you find this reverse interaction?
It doesn't exist...
Adding TWF literally does NOTHING.
You have your Imp. TWF... exactly as it always runs...
You have Strong Swing... exactly as it always runs...
I want to give martial characters nice things... I do!
We get f&!%ing nothing!
But this isn't a nice thing we actually get...
It's the same as arguing about off hand attacks with TWF and Imp. Unarmed Strike...
Someone, speak slowly I am very stupid, please explain why TWF and Strong Swing actually interact otherwise...
Two COMPLETELY different things? Thought so...
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Alrighty then.
You cannot normally bash with a buckler!
Switching between these attacks is meaningless otherwise!
Suddenly using this ability with a completely different full attack action is ludicrous.
You get the ability to shield bash, as if it were a light shield, with the 2nd level ability of this archetype. You can TWF or even use a buckler as a mainhand weapon starting at level 2, regardless of Strong Swing.
At 2nd level, a rondelero can perform a shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical modifier as for a light shield). This ability replaces bravery.
You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “light shield” on Table 1–5: Martial Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash with a light shield. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
So shield bashing with a buckler functions as if you're wielding a light shield for the purposes of offhand and/or shield bash attacks. Moving on.
WITHOUT TWF...
You now have a offhand attack with your buckler.
This was never available before.
You still need TWF to reduce the penalties of the first offhand attack, and ITWF/GTWF for the extra two offhand attacks. You do not gain an extra attack with any of the abilities from this archetype; you still need TWF and even Improved Shield Bash so you don't lose the buckler's AC bonus.
You don't get an extra attack. You simply gain an additional means of attacking- the ability to shield bash with a buckler.
If your BAB allows extra attacks, you can use your buckler... this is actually a huge ability. Otherwise, you cannot bash with a buckler. Rules and stuff.
Correct. If you have 6 BAB, you can make one attack at +6 with your Falcata and one at +1 with your buckler, but that's an ability granted at level 2, not at 5th with Strong Swing. Said fighter can ALSO make two buckler attacks at +6 and +1, or two falcata attacks at +6/+1, or a Buckler bash at +6 and Falcata at +1. The combination doesn't matter, with or without Strong Swing. ANY character with two weapons can make ANY attack with ANY weapon they wield and incur NO penalties unless you declare you are two-weapon fighting. That is a core rule to this game.
To say that the ability allows you to substitute every Shield Bash with a Falcata strike is literally insane.
that is EXACTLY what it says:
...With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack.
Is the word choice poor here? For sure. But it becomes more clear if you replace the phrase "may alternate between using" to "may substitute using". Same meaning, different and in my opinion, clearer, language.
ALTERNATE
taking the place of; alternative.
"the rerouted traffic takes a variety of alternate routes"
synonyms: alternative, other, another, second, different, possible, substitute, replacement...
Adding TWF literally does NOTHING.
You have your Imp. TWF... exactly as it always runs...
You have Strong Swing... exactly as it always runs...
Not really. TWF occurs when you make a full attack action.
Strong Swing states that it takes a full-attack action.They are not mutually exclusive. They can both occur because it is the same action- a full-attack.
*edit for clarification* The reason abilities like Spring-Attack, Vital Strike, etc don't work on full attacks is because those are specifically listed as their own action. Feats stack on existing actions unless specifically said otherwise (take Piranha Strike and Power Attack, for example)
...This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This appears to be redundant wording, as you do not gain additional attacks FROM THIS ABILITY anyway, nor would you take penalties for attacking with different weapons if you're not TWFing. It merely reinforces the existing rules regarding full attacks with multiple weapons.
It's the same as arguing about off hand attacks with TWF and Imp. Unarmed Strike...
Huh? If you have Improved Unarmed Strike (thus considered armed) you can TWF with it. Unarmed Strike is considered a light weapon.
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon... An unarmed strike is always considered light...
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed...
So to TWF with unarmed strikes you need IUS, but other than that you'd be good to go. If you have BAB 6 you can make an unarmed strike at +6/+1, or use a manufactured weapon and unarmed strike.
Listen, at the end of the day I think it's within every right for a GM to not allow a player to TWF with Strong Swing, because it is really ridiculous. But I'm looking at the RAW and from what I can tell everything checks out to be able to substitute a buckler bash with a falcata attack. That means TWF and potentially even bashing finish. I promise you I have no intention of creating such a monstrosity in any of the games I play lol. I simply wanted to go over the rules and check if everything lines up. As far as I can tell, it does.