| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Normally the community keeps saying that tanking is not possible in PF and most of the time people are correct in saying so.
But now I thought about the following:
The archon style allows you to give an AC bonus to your adjacent allies vs one foe and to take hits meant for them.
The diplomacy version of antagonize (yes I went there) allows you to give an opponent -2 to attack someone else for 1 minute.
At the start I could only use either or but later I can use both each round (or use archon style and attack).
The question is: How to build it? I'd like to make him a dwarf but then the high diplomacy is hard. MMS monk would give early access to archon style and following, wis to AC and allow me to add in earth child style, as well. But multiclassing would be no problem when it comes in handy (for example for more survivability.
Perhaps go into stalwart defender later on?
I think there will be others around using teamwork feats so paired opportunists would be nice to have at some point. That way I could retaliate for every attack I take for an ally who has the feat.
Heh, I have a bodyguard buffer bard build statted out. Thats pretty much everything I have, except for the ring of tactical precision for another +1. If you want to aid on attacks as well swift aid is nice as is benevolent weapons.
|
I wouldn't go PURE tanking. I think the easiest thing to do while retaining tankiness is, along with some of those moves you mentioned, is to focus on combat manuvers.
If you want to go monk - try a manuver master focused upon dirty trick. (they're really one of only 1-2 classes for whom dirty trick doesn't suck) For fluff - say that you're hitting opponents in pressure points to blind/sicken etc. Otherwise you might run into issues - I had 1 GM insist that I could only blind a single hydra head at a time because earlier my fluff description had involved a burlap sack.
As most know - monks can get their defenses to gross levels, they just lose out on damage by doing so (dropping str etc). If you can blind/sicken foes every turn, you'll pull your weight offensively (if not directly) - especially if you have a rogue/ninja in the party to take advantage of their blindness. Then you can stack on a few of the 'tanking' abilities you mentioned.
But really - the best tanks don't JUST tank, they pull out some sort of support ability as well. (like the bard previously mentioned)
The question is: How to build it? I'd like to make him a dwarf but then the high diplomacy is hard.
The Diplomacy penalty for being a Dwarf is a whopping -1.
The Diplomacy penalty for being a Dwarf is a whopping -1.
The question is: How to build it? I'd like to make him a dwarf but then the high diplomacy is hard.
While on one hand you are right, on the other hand the build is already MAD and short on feats. And adding cha and diplomacy to the equation makes things worse.
actual build could be something like:
halfing skald 10/moms2:
rage powers: lesser beast, beast, guaded stance
feats: combat exprtise, ius, 3x archon, arcane strike, combat reflexes, bodyguard,
special: ally with paired opportunist feat
traits: helpfulitems:
gloves of arcane striking
+3benevolent armor
ring of tactical precision
As we will most likely be encountering a lot of giants I want to be a dwarf (for defensive training and potentially earthchild style). But apart from that it looks good.
We will be starting at level 1 so it will take some time to get to where you are with this build. Have to take a look and plan how to start it. But it definitely looks like an option. The non Halfling helpful trait is a little weaker than the Halfling one but it should work, never the less.
Besides dwarf, gnome is an option, too.
|
|
I'd like to make him a dwarf but then the high diplomacy is hard.
If you wanted to go the Dwarf route, one option would be to dip into Cleric, Druid, or Inquisitor, and instead of taking a domain, take the Conversion Inquisition. Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are now based off of Wisdom instead of Charisma. You can then dump Charisma if you wanted to (of course, then you couldn't do the Sense Motive check to increase your Diplomacy or Intimidate via Antagonize).
For added hilarity, go Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisiton and take the Infiltrator archetype. Get Wisdom x2 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, while only using Wisdom on Intimidate checks.
|
Gnome Bloodrager could be interesting, for a bit of a different idea.
Steel-blooded will give you heavy armor at full speed(20 down to 15+5 back to 20), while your bloodline could give you extra reach, layered defenses, or AC buffs. Some of the buff spells are pretty good too(have a tower shield's bonus with a 2h weapon, for instance), and you have some charisma for Antagonize(A.K.A. Aggro feat).
|
@op, I already disproved this quite thoroughly. Legitimate tanking in pathfinder exists all over the place. My first pfs character was an archon style crane wing monk with the bodyguard feat line.
Gm's hate him.
He uses bodyguard to boost allies ac, archon style to boost allies ac and redirect attacks that get through back to him which he then negated via crane wing. Just prior to him being needed into oblivion, he would provide his allies an aoo, then take one himself. It was a thing of beauty.
He could hold the line against charges, overruns and bullrushes because of his multiple archetypes and intelligent dipping. He couldn't hit for crap having a total of a +8 attack bonus when he was level 8....but he could do OK damage due to being a drunken master and burning kki for drunken fist. When he was injured he could drink alcohol for ki and temp hp about 2-3 other effects off a single sip. His drinking horn provided infinite alcohol so he had infinite healing, infinite ki, stupid ac, etc. His next line of feats were going to be even more obnoxious once he started allowing allies to benefit from his saving throws (which he could improve by drinking alcohol oddly enough).
'Actual' tank seems off. The way I read the title is 'a tank build, will it work?' Since it is factually true and repeatedly proven that 'actual' tanks (or mmo style tanks) can and do exist in pathfinder.
BTW, archon style can get ridiculous if you are with a group of people playing actual characters and not the optimized theorycrafted 'I can do everything' ideas that float around the forums. It makes for an amazing centerpiece for a group to function around and it shines even more brightly with a good bard in the group.
The crane wing nerf was a direct response to successful tanking. The build works beautifully with an intact crane wing, but is more of a standard character of this sort without it.
The crane wing nerf was a direct response to successful tanking. The build works beautifully with an intact crane wing, but is more of a standard character of this sort without it.
I'm pretty sure it was just to make the Swashbuckler's parry ability look good. Paizo does have a history of nerfing old stuff to make the new stuff look better (like they did to Animal Companions, so that Cavaliers would be a more attractive option).
...the build is already MAD and short on feats. And adding cha and diplomacy to the equation makes things worse.
There's always taking a single level of Cleric of Pharasma and for domains taking Conversion Inquisition and Repose. You get all social skills from wisdom and you get a touch that staggers without a save, level is irrelevant.
Another idea for a tank build. Gnome (again for defensive training) holy tactician paladin with the ally shield betrayal feat which he grants to all allies.
Every time an adjacent ally is attacked the target can spend an immediate action to get a +4 cover bonus to AC. If the attack misses because of this bonus the attacker can make another attack roll to see if he hits me instead.
As opposed to in harm's way this can be used multiple times per round because it uses the ally's immediate action not mine. And it can be combined with the bodyguard line and/or the archon style line.
|
|
I am Stoll trying to figur out how to use betrayal feats on my evil monk. With them calling out that giving the feats to allies allows them to only count as initiators and not abettors, it makes it unlikely that someone evil and strong would be so self sacrificing.....the betrayal feats seem designed entirely for underlings and those craven-types but not for the evil masterminds or powerful guys on top. Lame.
The only way I have found the betrayal feats useful for evil is in attempts to lure people to the cause. Callous casting is great if you can make the saves and convince your ally that 'the end justifies the means'. So as a form of corruption, they might work. As a form of demonstrating evil in am of themselves the mechanics don't favor that.
@Kyre here is more or less Cardigan, my drunken support Monk. I got some stuff wrong like the ability to forego his saves for others. Can't even find where I saw that.
Offhand he looks something like
Cardigan, Monk6/Fighter2
Drunken Master, Monk of the Sacred Mountain, Master of Many Styles, Qinggong, Brawler or Lorewarden.
Con 18, Wis 18, Dex 16(18?), char 7.
Ac ~27 Cmd: 30+, touch: low 20's. Flat: Low 20's.
HP: 90-100.
Saves are all like +8 or better.
Ki pool: 7
Drunken Ki Pool: 2 (always full).
Stunning Fists: 6/day DC 18.
Drunken Strength: 1d6
Bab+6
Attack: lowish due to a low str I think. He missed a lot in melee but I know he had a positive str modifier. Whatever it is, using crane style penalized him.
feats
Dodge
Archon Style
Toughness
Archon Diversion
Combat Reflexes
Bodyguard
Endurance
Drunken Brawler
Crane Style
Crane Wing
Crane Riposte
Might have had combat expertise.
Racial Heritage: Halfling
traits
Helpful
Fortified Drinker
At 9 he would take cautious Fighter and at 10 or 11, Blundering Defense. However,he may take those instead of crane wing and riposte now and grab Archon Justice. He has to retrain the two now useless feats.
He usually fights with an additional +4 ac due to fighting defensively and aids allies for a +4 to theirs. He can make it +6 ac against a single for (typically the boss). The bonus to ac is usually enough to allow anyone a good chance of not getting hit, including low ac casters. But if they do he just redirects the attacks to himself to solve the problem.
With the new feats, he gains 6 ac when fighting defensively and adjacent allies receive +3 ac as a luck bonus. This allows him to give +7-9 ac to allies. +10-12 for those with fates favored. It does nothing to deal with crits, and though I can take crit for an ally, there is no way to effectively handle that without crane wing.
At 9 he may swap out wholeness of body for a Qinggong power and qualify for arcane strike. This would allow the use of gloves of arcane striking to enhance the ac or damage dealt when he aids another. However, it would mean not being obnoxious via infinite healing due to drunken Ki + his drinking horn. While that sounds lame as an optimizer it makes him virtually immortal in combat to everything up but reflex save based magic (he tanks his ref save every time he drinks, tanking a cumulative -2 penalty, but he does get a +2 alchemical bonus to fort and will when he does as well as temp hp). The infinite healing and his jingasa are currently the only tools he has to deal with critical threats now that crane wing is gone.
Anyway, the end result is that when he is in a party enemies try hurting others and if successful, those players start to stick near him. Then enemies lose their power to hurt allies so they start trying to hurt me but even with focus fire the 33+ ac is beyond them in most cases and they resort to combat maneuvers and the like. But bull rushes and movement stuff simply fails (if he doesn't move for a round) making their checks largely worthless and costing them more rounds. GM's have tried knocking him into lava, hurling him from the tops of towers and mountains, etc. No luck. He fills the roll of 'I stand right here and make all the enemies throw everything they have at me' pretty well. Yes, he can fail a save. Yes, he can be caught by surprise and yeah, there are limits to what he can do in a round. He's not great at killing or when alone but god, if the party ever drops he is going to be the last one standing and will drag that fight out until the shop closes.
And to prevent that from happening I wanted to dip one level of Paladin (sacred shield) for the bastion of good power. Allies take half damage from attacks of the target. In a boss battle that would be the final straw before a gm throws the table at me and declares rocks fall, everyone dies. A level of cavalier with the new betrayal feats rounds out the builds theme if I use tactician to give allies the Ally Shield feat.
God I miss playing this guy. <insert trollface>
|
Honor Guard Cavalier of the Order of the Dragon has a pretty solid base for a Bodyguard build without getting too complicated. I looked at taking Intercept Charge for the level 1 teamwork feat for a bit of added mobile protection.
If you're going to look into building up the aid another bonuses, be sure to pay attention to the wordings of abilities that boost it. A lot of them change the base value rather than adding a numerical bonus and technically don't stack. For example, the Helpful trait and the Aid Allies Order of the Dragon ability both change the base value and wouldn't interact with each other.
|
|
Honor Guard Cavalier of the Order of the Dragon has a pretty solid base for a Bodyguard build without getting too complicated. I looked at taking Intercept Charge for the level 1 teamwork feat for a bit of added mobile protection.
If you're going to look into building up the aid another bonuses, be sure to pay attention to the wordings of abilities that boost it. A lot of them change the base value rather than adding a numerical bonus and technically don't stack. For example, the Helpful trait and the Aid Allies Order of the Dragon ability both change the base value and wouldn't interact with each other.
Actually, there's some debate as to whether or not the Aid Allies ability of Order of the Dragon actually changes the base ability, mostly because it doesn't actually say that it substitutes the +2 with a +3, but that the ally simply gains the listed bonus. I've searched far and wide for a conclusive answer, but have never found it, so to my knowledge, RAW, it adds an additional +3 to Aid Other, rather than substituting the bonus.
If you want to play a tank, invest in Profession(Driver) and just buy yourself a big armored vehicle with a mounted cannon.
Yeah I came to this thread expecting panzers.
|
|
Actually, there's some debate as to whether or not the Aid Allies ability of Order of the Dragon actually changes the base ability, mostly because it doesn't actually say that it substitutes the +2 with a +3, but that the ally simply gains the listed bonus. I've searched far and wide for a conclusive answer, but have never found it, so to my knowledge, RAW, it adds an additional +3 to Aid Other, rather than substituting the bonus.
I agree that it's debatable and each thread I found on the issue has opinions on both sides of the issue. For a home game, it's simple enough to talk it over with the GM on how they might rule it. The non-standard formatting of the ability make the issue muddled and able to be ruled either way.
Currently my workings of the character are intended for PFS and I discussed the issue with the local VC. I was asked to play the Aid Allies as an alteration of the base ability rather than a bonus, which I'm fine with doing to avoid complications with varying opinions for the matter.