I have a 2nd level Investigator. Per the retrain rules in Ultimate Campaign and PFS, how long/much would it take me to retrain into the Empiricist?
Thanks in advance for answers.
Retrain rules in UC:
You can use the retraining rules to acquire an archetype for your class or abandon an archetype you have.
To gain an archetype that replaces standard class abilities you already have, you must spend 5 days for every alternate class feature you would add, subtract, or replace by taking that archetype. At the end of the training period, you lose the standard class features and replace them with the archetype's alternate class features (if any).
To abandon an archetype, you must spend 5 days for every alternate class feature you already have from that archetype. At the end of the retraining, you lose the archetype's class features and gain the standard class features for the class.
Swapping one archetype for another requires two retraining sessions: one to abandon the archetype, and then one to gain the new one.
Note that you don't have to use the retraining rules to take an archetype if your class level is low enough that the archetype doesn't modify any of your current class abilities. For example, if you're a 1st-level fighter who wants the archer archetype, that archetype doesn't replace any class abilities until fighter level 2, so you don't need to use the retraining rules at all—once you reach 2nd level, you can just decide to take the archer archetype.
Example: Logan's 4th-level fighter has the archer archetype. Because he is 4th level, he has two alternative class features from his archetype (hawkeye at 2nd level and trick shot at 3rd level), so he must spend 10 days and 400 gp retraining to abandon this archetype. If he were 5th level, he would also have the expert archer alternative class feature, which would increase his retraining to 15 days and 750 gp.
Class Feat to be replaced at 2nd level:
Ceaseless Observation (Ex):
An empiricist's ability to notice the minutiae of almost everything that happens around him allows him to make shrewd and insightful calculations about people and even inanimate objects. At 2nd level, an empiricist uses his Intelligence modifier instead of the skill's typical ability for all Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device checks. He can also use his Intelligence modifier instead of Charisma on any Diplomacy checks made to gather information.
This ability replaces poison lore and poison resistance.
I'm wanting to say it's 5 days = 100gp ...and is it 5 PP...one per day?
I am assuming you have played him as a 2nd level at least once right? if still unplayed, you could just make him a Empiricist without any retraining, as he will not have adventured as a 2nd level yet...
I looked at doing that very same thing on my bard who had dipped Investigator during playtest. I read it the same way - you are adding one alternate class feature (despite it replacing two), so 5 days.
Strictly by RAW, the cost is set by the number of alternate class features involved, not the number of class features from the base class, so a single alternate class feature that replaces multiple original class features still only counts as one.
That said, if you want to spend more to ensure that the dread Table Variation (CR 1-30, depending on GM) won't cause problems, do so. Personally, before paying extra I'd talk to your local VC, point out the actual wording of the UC retraining rules, and discuss with him how much it costs, so as to potentially avoid having to pay the five extra prestige.
I asked the same question here. I was not able to reach consensus so I went with the more conservative reading (two abilities, so 10PP).
I read your thread and the logic seems spot on. Your adding one "alternate class feature" = Ceaseless Observation. There is nothing in the written rules that the straight class features you are removing/replacing has any cost.
That said, if you want to spend more to ensure that the dread Table Variation (CR 1-30, depending on GM) won't cause problems, do so.
This is not something that should be subject to Table Variation by any means or stretch of the imagination. Once one realizes that it's per "alternative" class feature, the wording is unambiguous.
Strictly by RAW, the cost is set by the number of alternate class features involved, not the number of class features from the base class, so a single alternate class feature that replaces multiple original class features still only counts as one.
That said, if you want to spend more to ensure that the dread Table Variation (CR 1-30, depending on GM) won't cause problems, do so. Personally, before paying extra I'd talk to your local VC, point out the actual wording of the UC retraining rules, and discuss with him how much it costs, so as to potentially avoid having to pay the five extra prestige.
I'd be more than happy to recoup the Prestige loss, especially since I've still got some more retraining to do. I'll talk to some local VOs.
This is not something that should be subject to Table Variation by any means or stretch of the imagination. Once one realizes that it's per "alternative" class feature, the wording is unambiguous.
You'd think so, but some people get it into their heads that it works one way, and woe be to he who tries to disagree at their table. The only reason to pay the extra is just to avoid the argument.
redward wrote:
I'd be more than happy to recoup the Prestige loss, especially since I've still got some more retraining to do. I'll talk to some local VOs.
Do eeeeeeeet. I recommend doing so away from the table, to give the time to look it over without feeling rushed. A good idea would be to e-mail them about it, then make the corrections in person, the next time you're at a table with 'em.
That wording for the archetype retraining isn't terribly clear. I'm pretty sure the intent is that you pay 5PP for each level you have class features replaced for. If you add two new abilities in one level, that level counts twice.
This is the key text, taking into account it's talking about adding an archetype:
Quote:
you must spend 5 days for every alternate class feature you would add, subtract, or replace by taking that archetype.
So for what you're talking about, Ceaseless Observation is one "alternate class feature". Because you're not gaining poison lore and poison resistance, they don't count. If there was another level where you added/replaced nothing, but still lost a class feature, that level counts as a retrainable level that you have to pay for.
It would only be the other way around if you were abandoning Empiricist to go pure Investigator, thus taking on Poison Lore and Poison Resistance and abandoning Ceaseless Observation - that's the 10 day route, because you're losing 1 class feature and gaining 2.
It would only be the other way around if you were abandoning Empiricist to go pure Investigator, thus taking on Poison Lore and Poison Resistance and abandoning Ceaseless Observation - that's the 10 day route, because you're losing 1 class feature and gaining 2.
The text says "alternate" class feature, not class feature. Going the other route, you're dropping 1 alternate class feature. Per the text, it's irrelevant how many class features you gain or lose, or when you gain or lose them.
The key here is that we are talking about archetypes. We're not talking about feats. By basing the change cost on the number of alternate class features we have a consistent and easy way to assess the cost and we can ignore what it is replacing.
If retraining had wanted us to count Poison Lore and Poison Resistance, then the rules would have said "class features" not "alternate" class features, the latter only focusing on the archetype.
PRD wrote:
To abandon an archetype, you must spend 5 days for every alternate class feature you already have from that archetype. At the end of the retraining, you lose the archetype's class features and gain the standard class features for the class.
The wording is clear, I'm only counting the alternate class feature that I'm subtracting. Once I've rid myself of all the alternate class features for the archetype, I regain ALL the class features for the base class. I don't pay for class features, I pay to get rid of alternate features. In this case, it would be one and only one.
