Pretty much what it says in the title... Here is the link to the article.
I know that most of us have no issue gaming with those of the female persuasion, but we are gaming as adults. I found this article interesting primarily because the experiment, if you want to call it that, used 9- to 11-year-old boys and girls, the age many of us were when we first got involved with the hobby. With nary a girl in sight. I think I was in college before I ever saw a girl at the same game I was at.
For any who might still be doubtful about the premise of the idea, I will just leave you the last line of the article itself:
Gender bias loses saving throw versus truth. Stereotype defeated. Huzzah!
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Wait... I feel like I have seen this post before....
Huh....
hm.. I play PF/D&D 3.5/3.0/2.5/2.0/WoD/Rogue trader/ect...
*checks pants*... check..
*checks chest*.......... moving on....
*checks Birth Certificate*
Yup! Ok! So its settled...
Girls play D&D.
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Just let players play, and treat and players like you would treat anyone else.
If we stop singling people out for playing because of their gender/race/etc, maybe it'll stop being an issue altogether. Acting shocked and surprised whenever a non-neckbeard is interested in something geeky, just reinforces the stereotype and wards others away from the genre.
Wait... I feel like I have seen this post before....
Huh....
hm.. I play PF/D&D 3.5/3.0/2.5/2.0/WoD/Rogue trader/ect...
*checks pants*... check..
*checks chest*.......... moving on....
*checks Birth Certificate*
Yup! Ok! So its settled...
Girls play D&D.
:-(
Shocked and surprised is one thing. Noticing the demographics and trying to figure out how to shift them is another.Just let players play, and treat and players like you would treat anyone else.
If we stop singling people out for playing because of their gender/race/etc, maybe it'll stop being an issue altogether. Acting shocked and surprised whenever a non-neckbeard is interested in something geeky, just reinforces the stereotype and wards others away from the genre.
Alright, that's fine too. I'm all for balancing out the cheese/beefcake eye candy, I'm a big fan of practical armor art for characters, etc. To be fair though, a few ladies I know are actually big fans of Seoni's attire, and scantily clad barbarians for that matter. More balance on both sides would be a good thing.
Shocked and surprised is one thing. Noticing the demographics and trying to figure out how to shift them is another.Just let players play, and treat and players like you would treat anyone else.
If we stop singling people out for playing because of their gender/race/etc, maybe it'll stop being an issue altogether. Acting shocked and surprised whenever a non-neckbeard is interested in something geeky, just reinforces the stereotype and wards others away from the genre.
Alright, that's fine too. I'm all for balancing out the cheese/beefcake eye candy, I'm a big fan of practical armor art for characters, etc. To be fair though, a few ladies I know are actually big fans of Seoni's attire, and scantily clad barbarians for that matter. More balance on both sides would be a good thing.
I don't think it's about eye candy at all, in one way or another. It's about making a game that can be inclusive for all, not just less repulsive for one gender. The game can work just as well with no beefcake, no cheesecake or no functional anything. These are all marketing tools, not the definition of RPGs.
RPGs have the potential to attract women just as much as men, but presentation of content makes it that people outside the hobby think that RPGs are a boy's club game. It's changing, but the fact that there are female players who are very much into RPGs around our tables doesn't mean that there's no perception issue; it only confirms that the game can please all. That's the crux of the issue; we as role-players know that, but we shouldn't take it for granted that those outside the hobby do know this as well as we do.
What I like about this video, and it echos my work with 10-11 years old kids when I was a camp councilor, is that education a young age will help fight stereotypes at later age. The message that struck with me is not that young girls ended liking the game, it's that they wouldn't have even considered trying the game otherwise. And boys, well, they were not about to invite the girls on their own either.
This is all pretty typical of children of this age mind you, with development of identity and all. But more so the point in showing our kids different avenues. Boys will still play DnD as G.I. Joes with swords and that may not interest a 10-year-ol girl, but at least they will know of RPGs and can play according to their own interests if need be. Activities and interests are polarized at this age but they generally meet-up a later age. Why is it not the case with RPGs (or in a more balanced proportion anyways)
'findel
I don't think it's about eye candy at all, in one way or another. It's about making a game that can be inclusive for all, not just less repulsive for one gender. The game can work just as well with no beefcake, no cheesecake or no functional anything. These are all marketing tools, not the definition of RPGs.
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm posting from work(during breaktime) and had to keep it short. I had trouble expressing what I meant.
I fully support making games as all-inclusive as possible. I meant to simply use artwork as one example, not a foundation point.
I don't think it's about eye candy at all, in one way or another. It's about making a game that can be inclusive for all, not just less repulsive for one gender. The game can work just as well with no beefcake, no cheesecake or no functional anything. These are all marketing tools, not the definition of RPGs.I agree wholeheartedly. I'm posting from work(during breaktime) and had to keep it short. I had trouble expressing what I meant.
I fully support making games as all-inclusive as possible. I meant to simply use artwork as one example, not a foundation point.
You weren't wrong. Art contributes greatly to the game's presentation, and that affects the perception people have of the game.
In the other thread about this video, I was mentioning how many RPG (fantasy) books present the game as "being bad ass and killing dragons", even if this is a first degree reading of its cover. Even if this presentation is gender neutral, it does "talk" more to a young boy's audience than a young girl's audience.
That's cool to a certain extent; good marketing needs a central theme and a target audience, but I wish there was more in the way the hobby is presented that would also attract a young girl's audience. As I said in that other thread, I'm not sure how I feel about a "pink-packaged" RPG targeting girls specifically.
But the presentation of the game IS changing. That video is a change in presentation (assuming it was not aimed a the already converted mass). Perhaps there enough women in the hobby now to serve as role model for young girls to give RPGs a try.
I guess the hobby has more to offer than the "killing dragons" oriented Pathfinder and D&D, it's just that these two eclipse the rest so much that the mass don't even know they exist.
I remember seeing a lot more female gamer after Vampire:the Mascarade came out. It's more universal themes brought many female players in the hobby where I come from. Not the best game to advertise that RPGs are harmless good fun, but it did brought many different types of RPer to the hobby.
Shocked and surprised is one thing. Noticing the demographics and trying to figure out how to shift them is another.Just let players play, and treat and players like you would treat anyone else.
If we stop singling people out for playing because of their gender/race/etc, maybe it'll stop being an issue altogether. Acting shocked and surprised whenever a non-neckbeard is interested in something geeky, just reinforces the stereotype and wards others away from the genre.
Alright, that's fine too. I'm all for balancing out the cheese/beefcake eye candy, I'm a big fan of practical armor art for characters, etc. To be fair though, a few ladies I know are actually big fans of Seoni's attire, and scantily clad barbarians for that matter. More balance on both sides would be a good thing.
The iconics aren't only, or even probably mostly, eye candy. They're also representative of the PCs I might play, and self-insertion for my self. And as as an over-40, less-than-fit woman, eye candy only is like telling me I ought to invest in plastic surgery (that I can't afford) become a hermit, or perhaps only go out of doors with a paper bag over my head.
Please note, though, I am only asking for diversity
Shocked and surprised is one thing. Noticing the demographics and trying to figure out how to shift them is another.Just let players play, and treat and players like you would treat anyone else.
If we stop singling people out for playing because of their gender/race/etc, maybe it'll stop being an issue altogether. Acting shocked and surprised whenever a non-neckbeard is interested in something geeky, just reinforces the stereotype and wards others away from the genre.
Alright, that's fine too. I'm all for balancing out the cheese/beefcake eye candy, I'm a big fan of practical armor art for characters, etc. To be fair though, a few ladies I know are actually big fans of Seoni's attire, and scantily clad barbarians for that matter. More balance on both sides would be a good thing.
The iconics aren't only, or even probably mostly, eye candy. They're also representative of the PCs I might play, and self-insertion for my self. And as as an over-40, less-than-fit woman, eye candy only is like telling me I ought to invest in plastic surgery (that I can't afford) become a hermit, or perhaps only go out of doors with a paper bag over my head.
Please note, though, I am only asking for diversity
But I didn't even mention the iconics(as a group), other than the one iconic who gets a lot of attention(good and bad) due to her very unrealistic attire. I think you're taking my quote out of context; I never said "we just need to do something about eye-candy and everything else will be peachy". I only had a few moments to post so I just used one example. That's all.
Like Laurefindel alluded to above; giving more of a diverse gaming experience beyond "kill, loot, repeat" is also an example of something that would help create a more inviting, more inclusive and diverse gaming experience. I'm all for this.
I am 24 and i still haven't had a girl/woman in any of my groups that wasn't someone else's girlfriend, i have heard of girls/women that play tabletop RPGs without being romantically involved with any of the other players but i didn't happen to have one such girl in any of my groups.
Shocked and surprised is one thing. Noticing the demographics and trying to figure out how to shift them is another.Just let players play, and treat and players like you would treat anyone else.
If we stop singling people out for playing because of their gender/race/etc, maybe it'll stop being an issue altogether. Acting shocked and surprised whenever a non-neckbeard is interested in something geeky, just reinforces the stereotype and wards others away from the genre.
Alright, that's fine too. I'm all for balancing out the cheese/beefcake eye candy, I'm a big fan of practical armor art for characters, etc. To be fair though, a few ladies I know are actually big fans of Seoni's attire, and scantily clad barbarians for that matter. More balance on both sides would be a good thing.
The iconics aren't only, or even probably mostly, eye candy. They're also representative of the PCs I might play, and self-insertion for my self. And as as an over-40, less-than-fit woman, eye candy only is like telling me I ought to invest in plastic surgery (that I can't afford) become a hermit, or perhaps only go out of doors with a paper bag over my head.
Please note, though, I am only asking for diversity
But I didn't even mention the iconics(as a group), other than the one iconic who gets a lot of attention(good and bad) due to her very unrealistic attire. I think you're taking my quote out of context; I never said "we just need to do something about eye-candy and everything else will be peachy". I only had a few moments to post so I just used one example. That's all.
Like Laurefindel alluded to above; giving more of a diverse gaming experience beyond "kill, loot, repeat" is also an example of something that would help create a more inviting, more inclusive and diverse gaming experience. I'm all for this.
Yes, I'm sorry for over reacting. It was late and I was tired. Bad time to post anything.
I still think, though, that, especially for kids, the artwork is a lot about self-insertion - "Hey, I can do that, be that person"
I know that most of us have no issue gaming with those of the female persuasion.Speak for yourself. I skipped the stag parties of the Rutgers RPGA group back in the 70's to game with a group at Demarest Hall which was pretty much a 50/50 split genderwise. And this was back in 1981.
Nothing you said contradicted what he said.
Unless you're saying you DID have an issue with it?
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My group has always had women. In fact, when we first started there were more women than men. We've since recruited four more players who've tipped the scales a bit.
But at our table, this is and has always been a non-issue.
I know that most of us have no issue gaming with those of the female persuasion.Speak for yourself. I skipped the stag parties of the Rutgers RPGA group back in the 70's to game with a group at Demarest Hall which was pretty much a 50/50 split genderwise. And this was back in 1981.Nothing you said contradicted what he said.
Unless you're saying you DID have an issue with it?
I find it more impressive that Lazar managed to simultaneously exist in the 70's and 1981 at the same time. If you have ever wondered where the combative tension in lazar's posts comes from it is clearly brain damage suffered in a time travel accident. That level of cognitive disconnect mere syllables apart is very telling indeed.
The struggle is real man. The struggle is real xD
Our resident Rules Encyclopedia is a lovely Lady that I have been through 3 now 4 different GM's with and have no problem with her at all. Truthfully I am very glad to have her at the table.
Just my 2 cp.
I would like to point out the Seoni is a power fantasy for many women. In fact, every female roleplayer I have shown the book to has had a noticeably favorable reaction to her, to the point of 2 of them saying almost instantaneously "ooh I want to play her". None of the other iconics have had such a strong positive reaction.
I remember seeing a lot more female gamer after Vampire:the Mascarade came out. It's more universal themes brought many female players in the hobby where I come from. Not the best game to advertise that RPGs are harmless good fun, but it did brought many different types of RPer to the hobby.
If only we had a female CEO of a major gaming company, who could proselytize and lead by example in getting more girls involved in gaming! :-P
Seriously, though, I'm glad the vast majority of us have reached the point where, when a female approaches the gaming table, everyone's asking what character she's playing, rather than passing out with the vapors or planning to ask her out because another chance may never come.
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I did most of my D&D type gaming in college, and our group was pretty much 50/50. Some were couples, some weren't. We really didn't think much about it.
This article and experiment tickles me no end. I am a mom of a 13 year old boy and an 11 year old girl. Both of my kids showed an interest in my old "red box" last year when I pulled it out of my closet one day, so I sought out a gaming group for my son and me to join last year. My daughter, while she had fun playing with her brother, didn't want to join a group, which was just as well, as the one I found was just starting Carrion Crown. Fine by my son, but not a genre my daughter was interested in.
It made me sad that she wasn't playing, so I asked her one day if she would play with a group of her girlfriends, if I was the GM. She agreed, and we invited three of her best friends to join the group, two of which were a little, "what's this about, now?" and the third being our Carrion Crown GM's daughter. She agreed to let her brother play, too. So I have a party of 11-13 year olds, and our group consists of a bard, a witch, a druid, a sorcerer and a rogue (my son). We occasionally have my son's best friend join in, and when he does, he plays a fighter. I play light and loose with the rules, and the girls all love it.
I found, however, during character selection, that the girls were often swayed for or against a class based on the iconic pictured for it. My daughter is musically inclined and wanted her character to play an instrument, so a bard was a natural choice - but she had to get her head around the fact that she wasn't being asked to play Lem. So, yes, I agree that the iconics are a powerful influence. I'm not passing judgment good or bad, mind you, just noting that I have seen how they influence class selection, especially on those new to the game.
Also, my girls, at least, are not murder hobos in any sense of the word. They don't want to kill anything. They want to talk their way through most encounters, so I have had to adjust my home brew scenarios to account for that preference. I love a good monster slaying as well as the next gamer, so this was a surprising turn of events for me.
I am constantly being asked, "When's our next gaming session?"
Yes, girls play D&D, too.
I would like to point out the Seoni is a power fantasy for many women. In fact, every female roleplayer I have shown the book to has had a noticeably favorable reaction to her, to the point of 2 of them saying almost instantaneously "ooh I want to play her". None of the other iconics have had such a strong positive reaction.
My favorite iconic is actually Merisiel, the iconic rogue. Then again, I really like the exotic elven look, I prefer black hair to white though. But I thought she was the most attractive of the bunch. Probably because she looked tough rather than hot and I'm weird. :)
Merisiel is awesome xD...
Not exactly the brightest but she is funny :P
Merisiel is awesome xD...
Not exactly the brightest but she is funny :P
I had an elven rogue and used a repainted mini of Merisiel. Black hair and all black clothing instead of the red splotches. I was going to prestige into a shadow dancer with her. She was so much fun. And no, not the smartest cookie on the cupcake platter, but she was hilarious. Lots of hijinks ensued with her around. :)
On a related note...
That's a good point, actually. To draw a sports analogy, Major League Baseball was racially integrated in 1947 with Jackie Robinson, and players come from the ends of the earth now, but to this day they're having trouble getting minorities in "management" positions (manager, general manager, director of baseball operations, etc.).
I was just reading this article that has some interesting things to say in the 2nd half about converting players to DMs. WotC (and TSR before them) has relied far too much on "word of mouth" to do that. That goes double for female GM's. If only a small percentage of RPGers are GMs, and only a small percentage of RPGers are female, some simple math should tell you that the intersection of those two sets is ridiculously small. If we want more female players, it stands to reason that more female GMs is a step in the right direction, GMs being the ones who usually proselytize the games, organize groups, and so on.
I would love playing in a game headed by a female GM, but I haven't had the good fortune to come across one yet. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places.
On a related note...That's a good point, actually. To draw a sports analogy, Major League Baseball was racially integrated in 1947 with Jackie Robinson, and players come from the ends of the earth now, but to this day they're having trouble getting minorities in "management" positions (manager, general manager, director of baseball operations, etc.).
I was just reading this article that has some interesting things to say in the 2nd half about converting players to DMs. WotC (and TSR before them) has relied far too much on "word of mouth" to do that. That goes double for female GM's. If only a small percentage of RPGers are GMs, and only a small percentage of RPGers are female, some simple math should tell you that the intersection of those two sets is ridiculously small. If we want more female players, it stands to reason that more female GMs is a step in the right direction, GMs being the ones who usually proselytize the games, organize groups, and so on.
I would love playing in a game headed by a female GM, but I haven't had the good fortune to come across one yet. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places.
Thinking about it, I have been in a number of games and know a lot more that are at least 50% female, but can only think of 2 female I know who have GMed, and have not played with either.
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As a female player who has tried GMing and didn't enjoy it, I suspect that part of the reason some women players may not be interested in GMing is that we don't want to be the leader. The GM has to act as referee, narrator, director, and interpreter of the rules. I don't enjoy most of those tasks, and I don't know many women who enjoy doing that type of activity. My fellow female players and myself prefer to focus on developing our characters and roleplaying their interactions with the other PCs. We don't want to have to juggle all the other details the GM is responsible for. That's why I'm not in management at work, as well.
But this is just my limited experience. I've been playing with the same group of friends for 20 years. I don't do games at my local game store, so I haven't been exposed to a broad population of other female players.
On a related note...That's a good point, actually. To draw a sports analogy, Major League Baseball was racially integrated in 1947 with Jackie Robinson, and players come from the ends of the earth now, but to this day they're having trouble getting minorities in "management" positions (manager, general manager, director of baseball operations, etc.).
I was just reading this article that has some interesting things to say in the 2nd half about converting players to DMs. WotC (and TSR before them) has relied far too much on "word of mouth" to do that. That goes double for female GM's. If only a small percentage of RPGers are GMs, and only a small percentage of RPGers are female, some simple math should tell you that the intersection of those two sets is ridiculously small. If we want more female players, it stands to reason that more female GMs is a step in the right direction, GMs being the ones who usually proselytize the games, organize groups, and so on.
I would love playing in a game headed by a female GM, but I haven't had the good fortune to come across one yet. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places.
To put this here too. I am female. I GM. I will be GMing three games at the upcoming ConQuest Avalon in Sac the first weekend of November. Which probably doesn't help most of you lol. My point is, sometimes you can find the female GMs at conventions. Not everyone would like my GM style. I usually go for the bizarre and aim to have fun and tell a fun story. I'm not in the least bit serious and I use candy for monsters. :D
As a female player who has tried GMing and didn't enjoy it, I suspect that part of the reason some women players may not be interested in GMing is that we don't want to be the leader. The GM has to act as referee, narrator, director, and interpreter of the rules. I don't enjoy most of those tasks, and I don't know many women who enjoy doing that type of activity. My fellow female players and myself prefer to focus on developing our characters and roleplaying their interactions with the other PCs. We don't want to have to juggle all the other details the GM is responsible for. That's why I'm not in management at work, as well.
But this is just my limited experience. I've been playing with the same group of friends for 20 years. I don't do games at my local game store, so I haven't been exposed to a broad population of other female players.
I have a friend I can keep around for rules lawyering lol. Actually, he's going to co-dm with me. He's running the monsters. I get to TELL the story, and I also wrote the two Modules we'll be using. I don't mind DMing, but I do have a tendency to gloss over some of the rules in order to make it fun.
As a female player who has tried GMing and didn't enjoy it, I suspect that part of the reason some women players may not be interested in GMing is that we don't want to be the leader. The GM has to act as referee, narrator, director, and interpreter of the rules. I don't enjoy most of those tasks, and I don't know many women who enjoy doing that type of activity. My fellow female players and myself prefer to focus on developing our characters and roleplaying their interactions with the other PCs. We don't want to have to juggle all the other details the GM is responsible for. That's why I'm not in management at work, as well.
But this is just my limited experience. I've been playing with the same group of friends for 20 years. I don't do games at my local game store, so I haven't been exposed to a broad population of other female players.
Dire Elf, my oldest daughter falls under this paradigm as well. Your description covers what I think most people think of when they consider the "typical" female roleplayer. Which is not to say that the ones who do want to run a game shouldn't be given the chance to take the reins. Just as a hypothetical, would you feel more comfortable running a game if the rest of the group was similarly "story oriented", as you are?
The "story oriented" path may also be why I have run into few female optimizers, as well (can only think of one, off the top of my head).
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I am 24 and i still haven't had a girl/woman in any of my groups that wasn't someone else's girlfriend, i have heard of girls/women that play tabletop RPGs without being romantically involved with any of the other players but i didn't happen to have one such girl in any of my groups.
When I was younger, almost half the people in my groups were female. Some were romantically involved. Some became romantically involved after the fact. Others never were.
There were three marriages in groups I GM'd involving people who were not romantically involved before joining. One couple was my wife and I. We were just friends who enjoyed gaming together for years.