I think you need to determine the difficulty when you need to know the difficulty. Want to play Caltrops to evade? What is the difficulty at the evasion step? Want to play Caltrops to defeat? What is the difficulty at the Attempt a Check step (specifically Play Cards and Use Powers).
So when you determine the difficulty (a separate issue than how) is when you need to know the difficulty. So yeah, potentially you can do somethings to wiggle with...
I wasn't thinking about how your change to lycanthropes affected auto-defeat/evade cards, as those cards are more straightforward, since you generally couldn't play a card to modify the difficulty and use an auto-evade/defeat card. I was thinking about the implications for that change when you are going to roll for the check. That leaves you with two options:
Changing the blessing after the encounter starts doesn't change the difficulty because it was determined earlier and you're difficulty has a +3. In that case, Agna encountering a Skeleton using a club as her primary weapon and using a Main Gauche as an offhand weapon, which gives her attack the Piercing trait, wouldn't increase the difficulty since the difficulty was determined in an earlier step.
Or Changing the blessing after the encounter with the lycanthrope starts does change the difficulty, though at this point it is normally too late to auto-defeat or evade the monster since you're past the point of determining your skill. In that case, Agna using a Main Gauche offhand against a Skeleton would change the difficulty of that check.
The second option makes the most sense, due to Agna (or anything else that would give your attack a trait that directly affects the difficulty). So your change to the card would make the difficulty of the check to defeat Were-creatures more directly malleable by the players, in theory. Not a bad thing, just something to consider. The way it is written now, that difficulty is determined once at a specific point in the encounter and won't change after the fact.
Of course if there are not any cards now or in the future that let you burn blessings during an encounter then it double doesn't matter. The only one that comes to mind is the Shackles Pirate Ship, which doesn't matter to this discussion because it only works with ship encounters. But I don't know what other ships or coming or what cards I am forgetting.
Ideally, this process would be settled by altering the definition of what the highest difficulty of a card really is. We haven't been able to settle on a wording for that. Anybody have any ideas?Well I gave some thought to it. Assuming this is a definition for the rule book and not a card.
Highest Difficulty to Defeat: When required to determine a card’s highest Difficulty to Defeat, consider a character encountering the card and establish the highest possible difficulty number in the current scenario. If a failed check while encountering a card would increase its Difficulty to Defeat then apply the increase as though the check were failed. If a successful check while encounter a card would decrease its Difficulty to Defeat then consider the check failed. If using or not using a specific trait would increase the card’s Difficulty to Defeat then apply the increase as if the trait were or weren’t present. If a scenario or location card’s text would adjust the Difficulty to Defeat apply the adjustment. Determine the highest possible Difficulty to Defeat for a character encountering the card in the current scenario.
Take 2
Highest Difficulty to Defeat: When required to determine a card’s highest Difficulty to Defeat, apply all static modifiers to the card’s base difficulty. A static modifier is anything that increases or decreases a card’s difficulty without input from an exploring character. Static modifiers can come from the card’s powers, scenario card text and location card text.
So...
Check on locations such as Giant Lair, Goblin Fortress, Approach to Thistletop
Check on Lycanthopes
Check on no tickwood boar or skeletons.
Not certain if there are more things that can modify a cards difficulty to defeat beyond the card's own power, scenario cards or location cards. If so that list might need to be expanded. For instance is there a barrier that increases a monster difficulty to defeat?
Ideally, this process would be settled by altering the definition of what the highest difficulty of a card really is. We haven't been able to settle on a wording for that. Anybody have any ideas?Well I gave some thought to it. Assuming this is a definition for the rule book and not a card.
Highest Difficulty to Defeat: When required to determine a card’s highest Difficulty to Defeat, consider a character encountering the card and establish the highest possible difficulty number in the current scenario. If a failed check while encountering a card would increase its Difficulty to Defeat then apply the increase as though the check were failed. If a successful check while encounter a card would decrease its Difficulty to Defeat then consider the check failed. If using or not using a specific trait would increase the card’s Difficulty to Defeat then apply the increase as if the trait were or weren’t present. If a scenario or location card’s text would adjust the Difficulty to Defeat apply the adjustment. Determine the highest possible Difficulty to Defeat for a character encountering the card in the current scenario.
Take 2
Highest Difficulty to Defeat: When required to determine a card’s highest Difficulty to Defeat, apply all static modifiers to the card’s base difficulty. A static modifier is anything that increases or decreases a card’s difficulty without input from an exploring character. Static modifiers can come from the card’s powers, scenario card text and location card text.
So...
Check on locations such as Giant Lair, Goblin Fortress, Approach to Thistletop
Check on Lycanthopes
Check on no tickwood boar or skeletons.Not certain if there are more things that can modify a cards difficulty to defeat beyond the card's own power, scenario cards or location cards. If so that list might need to be expanded. For instance is there a barrier that increases a monster difficulty to defeat?
There are monsters that make all your checks more difficult for the rest of the turn.
I like the direction you're going, though. "Without input from a... character." Thumbs-up.
c:
Good point Orbis Orboros. Forgot about those. I'd be interested in hearing what Mike and Co. think about those types of cards. Are they in the yes category like locations and lycanthropes or no category like tickwood boar.
Example, please?
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I don't have my copy of Runelords right now, but I believe Yeth Hound? Make some kind of check beforehand or all your check difficulties are +2 for the rest of the turn.
I'd say yes, but only if you're making a check against it. So, if you find a Yeth Hound (or whatever monster it was) and have your difficulties increased, your Caltrops or Masterwork Tools will take that into account when you find a monster or barrier on the next explore. However, if you play Summon Monster, you aren't making a check against that monster, so the increase doesn't happen.
Before the encounter, each character at your location must succeed at a Wisdom 6 check or the difficulty of your checks is increased by 1 for the rest of the turn.
So are we talking about if you previously failed this check against the Yeth Hound and then summon a monster, does the summoned monster's difficulty go up by 2? If that is what we are talking about I'd say the summoned monster's difficulty isn't your check, so it isn't increased by 2.
We've also got the following:
Before the encounter, succeed at a Constitution or Fortitude 8 check or the difficulty of all checks is increased by 1 for the rest of the turn.
That is a bit more murky since it doesn't say "your check". I'd apply that one still.
What about:
If there are no other characters at your location, the difficulty of checks to defeat the Skinsaw Man is increased by 1d4.
He's a villain, but what if a regular monster had something similar? I'd say apply it.
Also, was simply saying you don't apply things related to making checks not sufficient? My suggestion 2?
Highest Difficulty to Defeat: When determining a card's highest difficulty to defeat apply any effects or powers to its checks to defeat that would adjust the difficulty to defeat, except those related to making checks, playing cards or using a character's powers. If the card has multiple checks to defeat, use the highest modified result.
So it doesn't matter if it is "Before the encounter" or not. Werewolf? Applies. Tickwood Boar? Doesn't apply? Skinsaw Man? Applies. Goblin Fortress? Applies.
Skinsaw Man, yes.
Rogors Craesby and Yeth Hound, probably not.
Well, I'm still with my above suggestion.
You cover Yeth Hound by saying "your checks" (the summoned monster isn't your check) and for Rogors Craesby...well...maybe for cards like him in the future say "all character's checks" to again cover the fact that the summoned monster isn't anyone's check.
Your suggestion 2 looks good.
Hi Hawk, Mike and the others. I followed the whole thread since our first proposition and I do agree with Hawk's suggestion 2. It may not be 100% bulletproof but I feel it covers at least 90% of cases the way we want and has the tremendous advantage to be simple.
We will apply it immediately to our games until we get the next can of worms or an even "bulletproofer" errata (don't hurt me, I'm just the messenger, the not-this-Mike started it :-)).
