Ok so the party is composed of 3 people. Myself, My Fiance, and My Brother-in-Law/Best Friend.
Brother-in-Law is going to play a fighter using the Martial Master and Two-Handed Weapon Archetypes (Due to Weapon Training being changed instead of properly replaced)
Fiance is going to play a Summoner (Her pet is going to be based off Toothless from How to Train Your Dragon)
And I will be playing a Bard to help buff both the fighter and the pet but also the Bard and Summoner can still fight.
But we want to optimize this as some of our up coming games will be set for like 5 people or more according to the modules or AP.
Fighter will be Human for sure. So will the Bard, Summoner might be a elf or Human.
Ok so the party is composed of 3 people. Myself, My Fiance, and My Brother-in-Law/Best Friend.
Brother-in-Law is going to play a fighter using the Martial Master and Two-Handed Weapon Archetypes (Due to Weapon Training being changed instead of properly replaced)
Fiance is going to play a Summoner (Her pet is going to be based off Toothless from How to Train Your Dragon)
And I will be playing a Bard to help buff both the fighter and the pet but also the Bard and Summoner can still fight.
But we want to optimize this as some of our up coming games will be set for like 5 people or more according to the modules or AP.
Fighter will be Human for sure. So will the Bard, Summoner might be a elf or Human.
Can't mix two-weapon warrior and martial master because they both replace weapon training.
If there's only three of you, it sounds to me like the summoner and fighter are plenty of melee. Bard feats should focus on debuffing. You don't want to take arcane duelist because you'll cough up bardic knowledge.
Bard's job should be buffing/debuffing. Summoner's job should be keeping pet alive and throwing up battlefield control spells - grease etc.
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Hard to optimize a 3 man unbalanced party.
The fighter should look at any class that can do fighting better...mostly all of them. Fighter is just so plain and boring...brings very little to a group other then meat shield with a big weapon.
The summoner is a fine choice. Since it offers 2ndary frontlines and some good CC to control the battlefield.
Bard is great for buffing and skills. But if your fighter is stuck on the crappy fighter class then I highly recommend a evanglist cleric. A full caster is wonderful.
But yeah I really can't optimize a 3 man group with a straight up fighter as they typically suck and are best for multi classing.
I don't think a straight fighter necessarily sucks but I do agree you could do better than TWF (why not a ranger, if that's his jam?).
Specializing in Polearms and trip attacks might do wonders for this party. Or maybe specialize in spears for reach and have that fighter hop on the dragon for charge attacks against BBEGs.
As far as i can tell via the chart at the bottom. Two weapon archetype is treated as changin weapon training. It does say replace but it replaces it with weapon training.
He might go brawler but he loves his greatsword style and the martial flexibility of the brawler.
Also he really just likes combat so by optimize i mean can u get him throwing large numbers of damage.
As far as i can tell via the chart at the bottom. Two weapon archetype is treated as changin weapon training. It does say replace but it replaces it with weapon training.
He might go brawler but he loves his greatsword style and the martial flexibility of the brawler.
Also he really just likes combat so by optimize i mean can u get him throwing large numbers of damage.
Fighter isn't the best in the world, but it can still throw out consistent damage. If that's all the guy really cares about, his existing archetype choices of Martial Master and Two Handed (not two-weapon, joeyfixit) tends to support his desire to run around with a greatsword and kill things. For static, constant bonuses to attack and damage, the weapon focus/specialization tree does the job.
I do believe the restriction is if the archetypes alter the same class feature rather than replace it specifically; it's just that the alteration is generally a replacement.
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@OP: You asked for optimization help. OK. Start by reading The Forge of Combat essay, then see the suggestions below.
You probably don't need to optimize much more than that, but here are a few tricks that can take an evangelist cleric 'over the top'. I built a super-optimized Evangelist Cleric to fit in to a very optimized, borderline-munchkin party of summoners, druids, and wizards. This forced the other players to totally revise their opinions of clerics (which they had always thought of as healbots), as this character was so tremendously powerful and effective in combat.
1. It's possible to improve Inspire Courage buffs. By 8th level, with the addition of the Flagbearer feat and the magic item Banner of the Ancient Kings, this PC was providing a +5 +5 combat buff that stacks. That's a major combat boost to the whole party. This is a Force Multiplier effect.
2. You only get one cleric domain, but there's a lot one can do with it. Don't take the Plant(Growth) domain, because then you would overshadow the party fighter, and your party already has plenty of melee power. On the other hand, with a one-feat tax for Boon Companion the Animal domain gets you a full animal companion. This will not overshadow your fighter ally. Here's one 5th level way to use an animal companion and clever tactics to inflict a possible 120 HP per round while still reserving your personal Standard Action for other purposes. This sort of PC, at only 5th level, can inflict over 100 HP of damage in a round, protects allies & controls the battlefield, yet that's not even your main thing.
3. Evangelists Clerics have weak channel energy, so it's usually best to ignore that class ability. However, if you want to optimize, there's an option: negative energy Variant Channeling. E.g. The Rulership option, available through the deities Horus and Ra, gives a 30' radius daze-and-damage effect. This effect resembles the utility of an Enlarged Dazing Selective Fireball, which would be an 8th level spell. Evangelist channels are gimped for damage, but the daze effect is just as strong, which is what matters. You can even take the Versatile Channeller feat to channel positive energy to heal. Acquire the magic item Phylactery of Positive Channeling and your positive channels will be as strong as those of a normal generic cleric.
4. Low WIS is perfectly fine. Don't use Cleric spells for offense. Buffs, healing, and summoning don't care about DC. Pump CHA for strong channels, and lots of them. CHA 16 is the minimum, you want it higher. CHA 18 allows you to Selective Channel exclude all your allies. You'd like STR 14 and CON 14 for basic martial competence, but don't need DEX or INT. Start with something like STR14 DEX10 CON14 INT10 WIS14 CHA14+2. You can drop STR, but this compromises your investment in Paired Opportunists. At low level you will want the STR, at high levels will you want more CHA and the STR won't matter.
This sort of Evangelist Cleric is a total powerhouse. Using the Forge of Combat metaphor, Variant Channeling (Rulership) allows you to fill the Anvil role (battlefield control) with aplomb, clerics & bards are both natural Arms (buff & support), and the polearm-pet-style Animal Companion even lets you fill the Hammer role (inflict HP damage) quite well. Your prickly AoO screen provides a lot of defense, such that you hardly ever take a full attack.
Your early round combat actions might go something like this (at 7th level):
Pet (which you ride) moves to a tactical choke point and then readies an action to attack to attack the first foe come within reach. Requires a smart, well trained pet. Thus, the first foe wishing to close with you will take 3 attacks: pet's readied action, pet's enhanced AoO, your enhanced AoO. That's if you don't want your pet casting low level buff spells.
Your move action: Start Inspire Courage. On round 2, once Inspire Courage is already up, you can instead Quick Channel negative energy to Harm and Daze.
Your standard action: At low levels you had to reserve your Round One Standard Action for Inspire Courage. At 7th level you can instead cast a spell. Some excellent options are Blessing of Fervor, Prayer (for total +6 +6 buffs to all in round one!), and Communal Resist Energy (e.g. there's a dragon).
Something to consider, if you want to really optimize.
My post was eaten.
To reiterate if a class ability is replaced or altered then you can't take 2 achetypes that affect that same class feature.
Well two handed fighter replaces weapon training with weapon training. Martial master replaces weapon training for martial flexibility. It doesnt specifically say the fighters base weapon training just a weapon training was my thinking.
it's not a weapon training, it clearly states:
This ability replaces weapon training and weapon mastery.
As in there is no weapon training class feature or weapon mastery when you take martial master. So either way can't apply both archetypes with a non existent feature.
i was referring only to the part that conflicted. Martial master replaces weapon training. Two handed replaces weapon training with another ability called weapon trajning .
Thanks for the suggestions so far guys
it's not a weapon training, it clearly states:
This ability replaces weapon training and weapon mastery.
As in there is no weapon training class feature or weapon mastery when you take martial master. So either way can't apply both archetypes with a non existent feature.
i was referring only to the part that conflicted. Martial master replaces weapon training. Two handed replaces weapon training with another ability called weapon trajning .
Thanks for the suggestions so far guys
Because the THF replaces Weapon Training with a feature called Weapon Training that isn't the same as a vanilla Fighter's Weapon training, for PFS it won't fly. If it's for a home game you might clear it with your DM.
I figured it out, arcane duelist.
Arcane duelist keeps the inspire courage performance for boostin the masses but you get a LOT of feats that even the fighter wouldn't get too easy. Arcane strike at level 1 is a bonus as well. Between your performances, arcane strike, your weapon, strength mod (18), power attack you should be at level 3 doing an average of 15 damage a turn. Your a little MAD in nature so use spells for defense.
The arcane duelist loses Bardic Knowledge, which you want with a three-member party when 2/3 of the party are melee-focused.
Because the THF replaces Weapon Training with a feature called Weapon Training that isn't the same as a vanilla Fighter's Weapon training, for PFS it won't fly. If it's for a home game you might clear it with your DM.it's not a weapon training, it clearly states:
This ability replaces weapon training and weapon mastery.
As in there is no weapon training class feature or weapon mastery when you take martial master. So either way can't apply both archetypes with a non existent feature.
i was referring only to the part that conflicted. Martial master replaces weapon training. Two handed replaces weapon training with another ability called weapon trajning .
Thanks for the suggestions so far guys
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter
Look at the Archetype listing. It has the Weapon Training section as C for changed. I know you cannot replace the same ability but C and (X) can be changed as far as I know.
Alright, so he might take Brawler anyway. He likes the idea of playing a Chuck Norris like character who can whoop some butt with his bare hands and sweet kicks.
Now I was picturing the Bard and Summoner throwing buffs onto the Pet to make him the tank and possibly throw fly on this guy later so he could fly overhead and attack people. But Buffing the Brawler is a tad easier isn't it?
Whether or not you think it is acceptable within the rules as written (or even any of us, for that matter) is essentially a moot point. What matters is what your GM thinks. Your brother-in-law needs to get that squared away before he plans his character all the way out.
Of course if he sticks with Brawler, it's not really a big deal either way.
I don't see why it is any easier to buff a brawler than an eidolon.
I personally do not recommend a bard for such a small party. Bards' use grows with each member of the party, IMO, thanks to the number of people they can buff at one time with spell and song.
What is it you like about the bard, in particular?
Versatility, the fluff of being the wandering story collector, the good Cha skills and the ability to weave stories and lies like a painter with his brush.
Versatility, I have found, is not as useful as specialization. Not laser-point-focused specialization where you're no good at anything but one focus, but...well, the jack of all trades/master of none is not a cliche without good reason.
The rest of your statement, however, all points to bard. Nobody makes a better face, with your high cha and metric butt-ton of skill points, that's for certain, and with bardic knowledge nobody will have better access to knowledge skills.
I would've recommended Dawnflower Dervish at this point, as it's one of the only archetypes I have really enjoyed playing, but it loses bardic knowledge, which really fits with your "teller of tales, weaver of stories" desires.
I think Bard is fine for a party this small. A bard isn't only bardic performance buffs. He's also a skill monkey, a knowledge monkey, and a face with all the social skills. Sounds like you really want to roleplay this guy, and I think you should stick with it.
My first PF game had (at first) an extremely small party (me/archery ranger, Alchemist, Bard. Cleric joined around session two I think). Dude playing the bard was the most experienced and saved our collective bacon numerous times with silent image. Which he could cast without ending his bardic performance.
When half of the enemy runs from the Sasquatch that they see spring forth from out of the ground, having an extra melee guy is less important. But when he needed to he would totally pull out a rapier to stab a dude. I just wouldn't spend feats on that (apart from Weapon Finesse).
I think Bard is fine for a party this small. A bard isn't only bardic performance buffs. He's also a skill monkey, a knowledge monkey, and a face with all the social skills. Sounds like you really want to roleplay this guy, and I think you should stick with it.
My first PF game had (at first) an extremely small party (me/archery ranger, Alchemist, Bard. Cleric joined around session two I think). Dude playing the bard was the most experienced and saved our collective bacon numerous times with silent image. Which he could cast without ending his bardic performance.
When half of the enemy runs from the Sasquatch that they see spring forth from out of the ground, having an extra melee guy is less important. But when he needed to he would totally pull out a rapier to stab a dude. I just wouldn't spend feats on that (apart from Weapon Finesse).
I don't know the Fencer's Grace feat coming out soon sounds delicious as it focuses specifically on Dex to damage for Rapiers.
That has some flavor to it too. A skilled swordsmen who knows just where to stick his pointy metal stick to cause a bit more damage (allowing you to keep Strength at 12 or about there)
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One way to optimize your party is to ensure that vital roles are covered. Another way is to optimize the individual PCs. For best results do both. The synchronicity of a well-balanced party is a force multiplier for individual PC power.
Combat Roles can be described as Hammer, Anvil, and Arm.
The Fighter is a dedicated Hammer who does HP damage to end a fight.
The Summoner is largely an Anvil who uses battlefield control, but also a secondary Hammer with the Eidolon. Or vice versa, depending on build.
A Bard typically fills some sort of Arm role providing buffs and support, probably with a role as either secondary hammer or anvil. A bard who uses Silent Image to scare away foes is in Anvil mode. A bard who shoots arrows at a foe is in Hammer mode.
It sounds like you have a well balanced three member party. All the roles are covered. While one could further optimize the individual power of the various PCs, the party you describe is a good mix.
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+1 luckbender
My earlier statement about the fighter is more a PC power and personal options. A fighter has no options other then beat you to death.
The brawler you mentioned brings A Lot more options. He has more skills. He can gain feats on the fly for the situation. Example: they cast darkness and your a blind human now....gain blind fight and keep up the beat down. A brawler can also do manuvers and knock out so he is a hammer with the option to serve as an anvil. His base saves are much better then a fighters. I believe he would do fine with a brawler. Me personally I would have chosen a warpriest myself. A divine caster that is in heavy armor and can do a lay on hands ability. Also he can use spell completion items of a cleric up to 6th level spells. So raise dead and restorations.
But a brawler, summoner, and bard would be a very fine 3 man team that covers all 3 roles in combat and can provide secondary roles when needed. Its a much more balanced team.
might i suggest skald over bard? i have played a bard and ive looked over (unfortunately have yet to play though) the skald. Skald might give you more combat prowess, which it sounds like you'll need.
Oh, yeah, I second this. It's got all the fluff and flavor of a bard, but they actually can hold their own in a fight. Not only that, but their inspire rage is definitely nicer for the fighter and the eidolon than your basic inspire courage.
I might suggest inquisitor with the conversion inquisition rather than bard. But that might be more combat focused and less group buffing than you need with a fighter and eidolon in the group.
However, You don't have any type of scout currently. They aren't the greatest at it, but you can get an inquisitor pretty good at scouting with all those skill points.
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Or the summoner could go the master summoner route. Build the eidolon as a scout. Then summon monsters for actual combat.
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Also seriously consider the teamwork feats!
The biggest weakness of the fighter is usually failing a will save, then smashing the rest of the party (similar problems with many eidolons). But if all of you take Shake it Off, that is potentially a +3 to every save.
If both the fighter and eidolon take something like Outflank, that is usually giving them both a +2 to hit.
If everyone takes Lookout usually someone will make the perception check and keep everyone from being completely surprised.
Martial Master fighter gains the Brawlers Martial Flexibility ability in exchange for his Weapon Training.
I do agree I like the Brawler a little more, but maybe thats due to heavy damage output. I will likely talk to him about switching to the Brawler and let him build his character to be useful in Combat Maneuvers, when I DMed a couple sessions he really hated being on the recieving ends of skilled opponents who used them against him. He ended up as the Gunslinger, Tripped, Grappled, Pinned, and Tied up in as many rounds and left helpless as the hostage.
So the ability to actually do all that while playing Chuck Norris might be something I could use to convince him.
Bard: Chelish Diva (Diva on PFSRD) high strength tank bard using a longsword with a quickdraw shield. Key feats are arcane strike, power attack, quickdraw, and discordant voice. Use spells for defense and mobility.
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This sounds weird at first, but it has been done.
I'd keep the bard and the summoner and make the 3rd a druid, or possibly even hunter or an inquisitor (sacred huntsman). It adds a 5th body for you (bringing you up to the 5 your looking for) and all three are excellent and versatile classes. I prefer a druid (saurian) slightly more for this party since he can drop standard action summons (with dozens of options to choose from), which can save your but in a sticky situation. With a buffer bard the animal companion can stay relevant even at higher levels with a little proper equipment, and at lower levels he'll be about as good as the fighter, while all three classes are much more versatile outside of combat.