spell like abilities and prestige classes. NO its not the same old question

[neferphras]

so its been ruled that if you can cast a spell as a spell like ability it counts for prestige classes.

Ok cool got it, dont really agree, but got it.

what if you can only do it once.
So say you run a scenario, and there are a few, that gives you the ability to cast a spell as a spell like ability once.
say lesser globe of invulnerability

So now, you have that power.

if you were a cleric, and wanted to become a Mystic Theurge, could you now do that?

Obviously you would never want to actually use that power, which is fine and all, but i think by RAW the answer is yes.

And some might say thats silly, but is it really any sillier than the original ruling... I am thinking not, and I would think it would be allowed for the same reason, Prestige classes are non optimal so really no harm.

anyway thought i would put it out there.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

It seems to be yes.

[seebs]

Didn't they conclude that a 3rd level spell doesn't count as "2nd level spells", etc?

[Nefreet]

I believe what neferphras is referring to are SLAs gained as "one time only" boons on Chronicle Sheets (for PFS).

I would say that, no, those don't count for prerequisites.

[Secane]

I thought the only SLAs that count are those that come with your race? (or from racial options.)

[graystone]

Secane wrote:

I thought the only SLAs that count are those that come with your race? (or from racial options.)

Nope. For instance, The Lantern Bearer trait + arcane strike works fine and gives you a caster level equal to your character level to use with arcane strike.

[neferphras]

yes i am referring to the SLAs on Chronicle Sheets (PFS) though several modules give you one time abilities as well. I am pretty sure the RAW answer to this is yes, because the FAQ states all you need is to have the spell like ability, no reference is made to its permanence or whether or not it comes from a race or class.

Again my feeling is that the ruling itself is well wrong, but given their reason for the ruling i can see no logic that says it would not extend to one time uses spell like abilities. Again the logic was, prestige class are weak,and no harm was done if you satisfy the prereq by whatever means you can come up with.

[Rogar Stonebow]

That's nefarious neferphras.

[neferphras]

well yes yes it is. but i dont find it any worse than taking a aasimir or tiefling just to get arcane strike, or to get a prereq of any prestige class satisfied. I dont find a logical difference.

If the class says needs to be able to cast second level arcane spells... and the ability to cast darkness as a spell like counts for that... which again i feel is wrong, i dont see why this would be any different if you can do it once a day or once at all. Both break the intent of the pre req in the exact same way when it come right down to it.

anyway i marked it for an FAQ, lets see what they say.

[BigDTBone]

FAQ'd

I don't think I want the answer though...

[Nefreet]

1/day is quite different from 1/lifetime.

There is a Chronicle that grants you a 1/day SLA. I would allow that to qualify for Arcane Strike. But not something that grants you a one time use of a SLA.

[Secane]

FAQed. Would like some clarification, especially since this can have quite an impact on character creation.

Some of such SLA, are 1 shot, use and cross off, so it can get very confusing.

[Splendor]

Well try to remember also that what is RAW isn't necessarily the same thing as what is allowed in PFS. PFS has a stricter reading of the rules than RAW.
-----
Since its for PFS you should ask on the PFS boards.

[Diego Rossi]

It isn't a Rule forum question, it is a PFS forum question. Normally you don't get boons giving you one use of a spell in normal play. There is some effect that can do that but most of them are fairly rare.

There is Imbue with Spell Ability that give you a clerical spell but that will forever remove a spell from some other character.

Personally, I would simply throw you out of my gaming group if you were to try this at my table. There is too little gaming time to lose it with people that try this kind of moves.

[christos gurd]

yeah sure you qualify, mind you unless you still multiclass you wont have anything to advance though.

[chaoseffect]

Seems like it would work to me and on a personal note I would have zero issue with it or with the Imbue idea Diego mentioned. It's not like prestige classes are good options to begin with; with the advent of potential early access routes I'd be willing to just remove those restrictions entirely and let anyone get in at the earliest level a bypasser would be able to enter.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

chaoseffect wrote:

Seems like it would work to me and on a personal note I would have zero issue with it or with the Imbue idea Diego mentioned. It's not like prestige classes are good options to begin with; with the advent of potential early access routes I'd be willing to just remove those restrictions entirely and let anyone get in at the earliest level a bypasser would be able to enter.

Sp you got arcane strike or early entry into EK or MT. Big deal. Anything that makes a core race be able to do what an outsider race does by default is a big win to me. Honeslty, I think every race should be given SLA opportunities at this point.

I do agree with Diego though. this should be in the PFS thread. I don't know that in my nearly 14 years with 3.x I've ever seen a temporary SLA outside of PFS. If I have, it was not very memorable at any rate.

[wraithstrike]

From what I understand you need constant access to an ability to use it as a prereq. As an example you need to be able to fly to put ranks in the fly skill.

If you can cast fly because you have it in your spellbook, or as a sorcerer known spell that counts, because you have access to it continually.

Another example is that if you use a magic item to grant you a permanent ability score that works because it is not something that can be used up and never comes back.

One time access would not count. Otherwise you could have a cleric use "imbue with spell ability" to qualify for the divine side of MT since it has a permanent duration.

[chaoseffect]

wraithstrike wrote:

One time access would not count. Otherwise you could have a cleric use "imbue with spell ability" to qualify for the divine side of MT since it has a permanent duration.

Could a properly utilized Spellcasting Contract qualify you?

[wraithstrike]

chaoseffect wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

One time access would not count. Otherwise you could have a cleric use "imbue with spell ability" to qualify for the divine side of MT since it has a permanent duration.

Could a properly utilized Spellcasting Contract qualify you?

Since "indefinite" is an option I think it works.

This is not actually a bad idea for keeping a team mate buffed.

PS: I don't like it, but I am still 99.999999% sure it works.

[Diego Rossi]

wraithstrike wrote:

One time access would not count. Otherwise you could have a cleric use "imbue with spell ability" to qualify for the divine side of MT since it has a permanent duration.

Just for the record: "imbue with spell ability" don't work with PFS. Permanent spell disappear at the end of a scenario and, AFAIK, you increase your level between scenarios, so when you get your new level you aren't benefitting from imbue with spell ability."

[wraithstrike]

Diego Rossi wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

One time access would not count. Otherwise you could have a cleric use "imbue with spell ability" to qualify for the divine side of MT since it has a permanent duration.

Just for the record: "imbue with spell ability" don't work with PFS. Permanent spell disappear at the end of a scenario and, AFAIK, you increase your level between scenarios, so when you get your new level you aren't benefitting from imbue with spell ability."

I know. I was using the normal rules. As for PFS I am sure that spell contract idea would fail also.

[Diego Rossi]

I have flagged the thread to be moved, so it was a somewhat useful specification.
someone using this idea in PFS risk table variations.

[wraithstrike]

Diego Rossi wrote:

I have flagged the thread to be moved, so it was a somewhat useful specification.

someone using this idea in PFS risk table variations.

I flagged it also, just waiting for Paizo employees to show up.

[Secane]

Just to clarify, there ARE boons that give you a perm 1 per day SLAs.
Its permanent, with no requirement to cross off after 1 use.

If such a boon allows you access to prestige class, it would better to know, as it could potentially give both GMs and players headaches.

[wraithstrike]

Secane wrote:

Just to clarify, there ARE boons that give you a perm 1 per day SLAs.

Its permanent, with no requirement to cross off after 1 use.

If such a boon allows you access to prestige class, it would better to know, as it could potentially give both GMs and players headaches.

If it was 1/day then it should work even in PFS.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, you might get outright "that should not be!" reactions, but it's clearly legal.

I think the one-use thing is "creative" but not something I advocate actually doing. I appreciate the creativity from the rules lawyering perspective, but on the other hand I apply the principle "if I wouldn't want to allow it as GM, I shouldn't do it as a player".

[Secane]

Personally, I would prefer not to make a character around such a boon to avoid a GM telling me no. The options when something like that happens is not good,

1) Make a big fuss over the issue. With the GM likely giving you the boot

2) Run crying to your VC for help, but you will end up missing the game. AND your VC may or may nor allow it.

3) Intimidate/diplo your GM to allow it, which will result in:

3a - Your GM goes to VC after the game to ask about it with 2) results.

3b - Your GM don't care about it, which result in you repeating all this with the NEXT GM down the line. And no gm likes the "But the other time, the OTHER GM allowed it."

Reading through these boards, I came to understand that even if something has a FAQ entry or is clearly written down in black and white on a boon sheet, GMs could always have a different view of how a rule/boon/feat/spell/etc works.

There are also cases of spells/feats played wrongly due to lack of understanding of different rules and even "regional variation" of certain rules or enforcement of rules.

In short, never expect the same thing at different PFS tables. You are usually quite safe playing in the same area with GMs you know, but once outside of your usual places, expect table variations.

[Diego Rossi]

A permanent 1 use/day SLA is clearly valid, even if it come from a boon or a secondary effect to some item like a Deck of Harrowing. Once in a lifetime is decidedly questionable.

The problem is where we should put the limit. Once day? Once week? Once every time you recharge it bathing in the pool of radiance for 1 hour?

[neferphras]

I did think about putting this on the PFS formums outright before posting. But since the PFS rule is based on the core FAQ that says any spell like counts as casting the spell for Pre Reqs, I ended up posting here.

Basically, it is legal, and pretty clearly legal, unless the FAQ is adjusted.

Just for the record, one more time, this is cheesy, but not any more so than the 1/day in my view. Each is getting around the pre reqs intent in a cheese-tastic way. I would be delighted to the extreme if both were disallowed. But if you allow one, based only on the logic that Prestige class are non optimal so who cares, which is the logic in the FAQ, then i dont see how you cant allow both.

[Nefreet]

You're missing something, though.

PFS is not the "RAW is supreme no matter what anybody might say" game that non-PFS members always claim it to be.

It is written in the Guide to Organized Play that GMs still have power to interpret an ambiguous situation as they see fit.

Clearly you claim this is legal. I claim it is not. The general FAQ on SLAs was not written with consideration to Chronicle Boons from Pathfinder Society. It was written for the general PFRPG, and that fact needs to be considered. Another GM may have another interpretation. Campaign leadership may have another.

And, you admit this is "cheesy". You admit that this is taking advantage of a loophole. You are consciously aware of this. By that alone, I would not allow it. And I'm within my right as a PFS GM to do so.

I know you're still fairly new to PFS, so here's another rule of thumb: don't take advantage of loopholes that you believe to be cheesy. You will get burned, eventually, and your character will either become broken or be removed from the Campaign. It's happened before. Don't repeat the mistakes of others.

[neferphras]

yeah hum... im not going to do this. Never planned on it. It just occurred to me that someone could. I never plan on taking arcane strike just because the character is a Tiefling or Assamir either, though i have seen that done several times. It is to cheesy for me, makes my head hurt. Also never going to play a gunslinger because doing 1000 damage a round every round (very easy for a gunslinger to do) is just flat broken. I think of lots of things that i will never do due to the latherings of cheese that the rulings allow for :-) I am hoping by bring this up the FAQ is updated, to prevent this since the PFS ruling on spell likes is based on the FAQ. Or... alternatively, maybe they could add something to PFS additional resources vs updating the FAQ... either way.