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As the title says, which feats are underpowered? Which feats do you pretty much have to take to pull off specific concepts? I want to hear everyone's opinions on what feats are trap options or underwhelming, and where the feat taxes are.
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Overall? Feat chains make me very sad, especially ones like Two-Weapon Fighting in which you're getting less and less out of each feat, incrementally, in the chain. The two-part combat maneuver feats really bug me. Etc.
Also, any feat that does something like give you +1 to some situational roll is a kick in the teeth. Feats should actually do something.
Overall?Yes. I'm looking for a discussion about what in the feat system isn't really worth buying into (or feels way too expensive for what you get) or feels like it must be bought into.
Feat chains make me very sad, especially ones like Two-Weapon Fighting in which you're getting less and less out of each feat, incrementally, in the chain.
I do dislike how many feats TWF characters need to invest.
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Combat Expertise is one of the worst feat taxes. Many people get the feat as a prerequisite and then never use it.
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Combat Expertise is one of the worst feat taxes. Many people get the feat as a prerequisite and then never use it.
That one bugs me because it isn't in any way integrated with the Fighting Defensively mechanic, which is, in essence, doing the exact same thing.
As the title says, which feats are underpowered? Which feats do you pretty much have to take to pull off specific concepts? I want to hear everyone's opinions on what feats are trap options or underwhelming, and where the feat taxes are.
There are a few.
Prone Shooter, even the fixed version.I really don't like combat expertise, and I have never seen it in play. It seems to be a feat tax for better feats.
There is one feat that is supposed to improve bullrush or overrun, but as written it does nothing at all. I just can't remember the name of it.
I think enlarge and widen spell are pretty weak.
Whirlwind attack is weak to me. Getting surrounded is not a good idea, and if you do get surround killing one of them is betting than hitting all of them once.
Stand Still is weak because the creature has to be adjacent to you.
The dodge feat is weak to me also. Actually any feat that only gives a +1 bonus to AC is weak.
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-Taxes-
Dodge
C. Expertise
Improved Unarmed Strike
Point Blank Shot
Power Attack
Weapon Finesse
-Poor Rate of Return-
Dodge
TWF
CMB Feats beyond Improved (which itself is behind a tax)
Critical Modification Feats
Pretty much all feat chains are taxes, especially the IUS and Dodge chains. I'm less 'taxy' on the TWF feats, but the improved and greater could be just merged into TWF and eliminate some of the chain cheese. I think one really weak feat area are the bleeding, blinding, superfluous critical mod feats that have very very low save DC's for the BAB prerequisites. Critical Hit Deck gives better results and doesn't cost feats.
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I started looking at feat chains which are pretty long by pulling up the Advanced Player's Guide. The list got very long very quickly, so while commentary would take a long time, I'll submit a list of long feat chains for discussion...
-Two-Weapon Fighting/Improved Shield Bash/Shield Slam/Shield Master/Bashing Finish
-Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard/In Harm's Way
-Power Attack/Improved Overrun/Charge Through
-Step Up/Following Step/Step Up and Strike
-Dodge/Mobility/Sidestep/Improved Sidestep: Dang, that's a long chain.
-Combat Expertise/Gang Up/Team Up
-Combat Expertise/Second Chance/Improved Second Chance
-Scorpion Style/Gorgon's Fist/Medusa's Wrath/Cockatrice Strike
-Dodge/Mobility/Combat Reflexes/Combat Patrol
-Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Rapid Reload/Crossbow Mastery
-Power Attack/Furious Focus/Dreadful Carnage
-Blind-Fight/Improved Blind-Fight/Greater Blind-Fight
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Ki Throw/Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Improved Ki Throw - The longest feat chain in the game?
-Nimble Moves/Acrobatic Steps/Light Step
-Shield Focus/Missile Shield/Disruptive/Spellbreaker/Ray Shield
-Mounted Combat/Shield Focus/Mounted Shield
-Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run/Parting Shot
-Combat Reflexes/Disruptive/Spellbreaker/Teleport Tactician
-Dodge/Mobility/Underfoot
-Mounted Combat/Trick Riding/Mounted Skirmisher
Then I made it to Ultimate Combat...
-Quick maneuver feats
-Maneuver strike feats
-All the style feats
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Adder Strike/Improved Two-Weapon Fighting/Pinpoint Poisoner
-Quick Draw/Persuasive/Betrayer
-Two-Weapon Fighting/Improved Two-Weapon Fighting/Break Guard
-Point-Blank Shot/Charging Hurler/Improved Charging Hurler
-Power Attack/Cleave/Cleaving Finish/Great Cleave/Improved Cleaving Finish
-Dodge/Weapon Focus/Close-Quarters Thrower
-Diehard/Deathless Initiate/Deathless Master/Deathless Zealot
-Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Deceptive Exchange
-Vital Strike/Devastating Strike/Improved Devastating Strike
-Dimensional Agility/Dimensional Assault/Dimensional Dervish/Dimensional Maneuvers/Dimensional Savant
-Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Disengaging Flourish/Dodge/Mobility/Disengaging Shot
-Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Drag Down
-Dodge/Weapon Focus/Close-Quarters Thrower/False Opening (or the other way)
-Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Felling Escape
-Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Power Attack/Felling Smash
-Final Embrace/Final Embrace Horror/Final Embrace Master
-Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/Gory Finish
-Haunted Gnome/Haunted Gnome Assault/Haunted Gnome Shroud
-Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Critical Focus/Impaling Critical/Improved Impaling Critical
-Combat Expertise/Two-Weapon Fighting/Improved Two-Weapon Fighting/Improved Two-Weapon Feint
-Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/Intimidating Bane
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Stunning Fist/Jawbreaker/Improved Grapple/Bonebreaker/Greater Grapple/Neckbreaker - That's seven! A tie with Improved Ki Throw!
-Dodge/Mobility/Landing Roll
-Blind-Fight/Combat Expertise/Moonlight Stalker/Moonlight Stalker Feint/Improved Feint/Moonlight Stalker Master
-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net)/Net Adept/Two-Weapon Fighting/Net and Trident/Net Maneuvering/Net Trickery
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Nightmare Fist/Nightmare Weaver/Stunning Fist/Nightmare Stalker
-Dodge/Mobility/Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Passing Trick
-Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/Performing Combatant/Master Combat Performer
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple/Greater Grapple/Pinning Knockout
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple/Greater Grapple/Pinning Rend
-Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Raging Throw
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple/Greater Grapple/Rapid Grappler
-Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Rebuffing Reduction
-Rending Fury/Improved Rending Fury/Greater Rending Fury
-Weapon Focus/Point-Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Snap Shot/Improved Snap Shot/Greater Snap Shot
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Ki Throw/Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Spinning Throw - Another seven-feat chain directed at monks. Very similar to Improved Ki Throw as well.
-Diehard/Stalwart/Improved Stalwart
-Improved Grapple/Stunning Fist/Stunning Pin
-Weapon Focus/Two-Weapon Fighting/Point-Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Snap Shot/Sword and Pistol
-Weapon Focus/Two-Weapon Fighting/Twin Thunders/Twin Thunders Flurry/Twin Thunders Master
-Combat Expertise/Two-Weapon Fighting/Two-Weapon Feint
-Improved Unarmed Strike/Combat Reflexes/Vicious Stomp
-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip)/Weapon Focus (whip)/Whip Mastery/Improved Whip Mastery/Greater Whip Mastery
-Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/(Dramatic or Hero's or Savage) Display
-Point-Blank Shot/Precise Shot/(teamwork feat)/Enfilading Fire
-Combat Reflexes/Improved Critical/Seize the Moment
-Combat Reflexes/Dodge/Mobility/Matt...
WOW, that's a lot of feat chains, and that's from only the Advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Combat!
It's worth noting that all three of the seven-feat chains seem to be intended for Monks.
-Matt
Combat Expertise is definitely a tax.
Weapon Focus is both used as a tax (for class abilities as well as feats), in addition to being underwhelming.
Point blank shot seems like a tax, since the point of ranged weapons is to use them from further away, requiring a feat that makes you better up close before you can get any others is bizarre.
Personally, I find Toughness, and the +2 to two skills feats to be very weak. Skill Focus not only seems weak to me, but is also used as a tax, nonsensically for Eldritch Heritage among others.
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As the title says, which feats are underpowered? Which feats do you pretty much have to take to pull off specific concepts? I want to hear everyone's opinions on what feats are trap options or underwhelming, and where the feat taxes are.
Power Attack, Combat Expertise and Deadly Aim - or their equivalents - should be valuable to pretty much everyone for free. Maybe just with pre-requisite in the appropriate attributes but automatic for sure.
Feats that grant a small, one-time bonus should scale up, like Dodge for instance, should offer +1 AC which goes to +2 at 11th level and then +3 at 16th. That's perfectly reasonable return for a feat.
The Improved versions of the Maneuver feats should just go away or should be folded into the Greater versions.
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Point Blank Shot is a tax that's poorly named, as you need Point Blank Master to actually make shots at point blank.
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Honestly, I think Combat Expertise is the worst of the bunch.
It has an ability score requirement that most characters who would actually want the feats locked behind CE won't have.
It's a gatekeeper for a rather large number of feats/feat chains.
It has ZERO interaction with almost every feat that requires it as a prerequisite (CE is downright detrimental to using combat maneuvers, for example).
As stated earlier in the thread, it essentially works just like fighting defensively, has some overlap with fighting defensively (Stalwart feats, for example), yet doesn't gain any of the benefits aimed at fighting defensively (ie., Crane Style, and numerous other feats, class features, and traits), and is often worse than fighting defensively.
It mirrors Power Attack's penalty vs. bonus progression, but at a worse rate of return, and without any special benefit to a combat style well-suited to using the feat (I'd probably increase the defense bonus for characters wielding a single weapon in one hand with either no offhand weapon, or a shield).
It rarely gets used.
Also, thirty feet is not point-blank.
If you can reach out and punch him without moving both feet, that's point blank.
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Point Blank Shot is a tax that's poorly named, as you need Point Blank Master to actually make shots at point blank.
30' is considered to be point blank range in ballistics as the archer does not need to adjust their angle of attack to hit their target.
In popular usage and in forensics, the term as come to mean a much shorter distance than the term originally referred to.
Power Attack, while a tax, is at least a useful feat, and highly desired by many martial characters even without looking at any chains.
All the +1 to X feats should definitely scale with level.
Any feat chain that requires successive feats to essentially just scale the first feat (ie., Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, all the Improved/Greater maneuver feats, etc...) should probably get rolled up into a single feat that scales by either level or BAB, depending upon what the feat does (TWF makes sense to go by BAB, for example, since it would be kind of odd to gain offhand attacks faster than main hand ones).
I think all of the +2 to 2 skills feats should be removed.
I think Skill Focus should remain as-is, BUT should gain some new benefit somewhere before getting to the +6 bonus--basically, it should grant some new, special usage to every skill (probably print that in the skills' "Special" descriptions, rather than listing it all with the feat).
Point Blank Shot makes sense, but it should scale.
Also, any feat that essentially just modifies an attack action (Vital Strike, for example), but is listed as a standard action, should be changed to simply be an attack action, so these feats can combine with stuff like Spring Attack.
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Heightened Spell on Spell Perfection.
But that feat is so easily bustable anyway.
Widen is a waste. It should be +1 level.
Enlarge Spell and Reach Spell should be rolled into one feat.
Still Spell and Silent Spell should be rolled into one +1 feat called Subtle Spell.
The feats with "Greater" in their name should just be gotten rid of, and have the base feat scale, so you don't have crazy nonsense like DC 20 spells at 1st level.
Combat Maneuvers should not provoke attacks of opportunity. Especially bull rush, where their successful attack stops you cold. You're trying to run them over!
Also, to make Combat Expertise useful, it should let you ignore a bunch of the "nyah nyah, no AoO for you" powers like Point Blank Master.
Whirlwind Attack should be rolled into the baseline TWF feat.
Roll Mobility and Spring Attack together.
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Personally I think any time you have a feat that's "Everyone who does X needs it" when X isn't something particularly specific I think it's a big problem.
Point Blank Shot might make sense thematically, but the fact that everyone who wants to be good at ranged combat must take it sends up a bit of a red flag to me.
Combat Expertise is probably one of the few things I'd call a full-on Feat Tax. Most other Feats at least do moderately useful things.
I actually preferred Combat Expertise from 3.5, mostly because Improved Combat Expertise was hilariously strong.
"I wanna go full-on Armadillo! I'll take a decrease by BAB to 0 this turn and get a +20 AC until next turn!"
THAT made CE worth taking.
If Combat Expertise required either Int 10 OR Wis 10, and gave a +2 Dodge bonus for every -1 to attack you take, I'd say it'd not be that terrible; not great, but not awful.
OR, you make Combat Expertise a Trait. I think making it a Trait, maybe in addition to a Feat, would solve a lot of problems.
I understand that thematically it's needed for a lot of things, but that should mean that it can be at least MODERATElY useful.
Heightened Spell on Spell Perfection.
But that feat is so easily bustable anyway.
Widen is a waste. It should be +1 level.
Enlarge Spell and Reach Spell should be rolled into one feat.
Still Spell and Silent Spell should be rolled into one +1 feat called Subtle Spell.
Honestly, though? Casters, especially full-casters, already have so much going for them I don't think it's a problem to have the "Caster-Only" feats be bulkier than the "Martial-only" feats. Trimming the Martial feats while keeping Metamagic feats bloated wouldn't be a terrible way of balancing the two groups out.
Also, to make Combat Expertise useful, it should let you ignore a bunch of the "nyah nyah, no AoO for you" powers like Point Blank Master.
How about this? Remove Combat Expertise as a prerequisite for all feats it is currently attached to.
Or, the way to make it useful would be to alter it in one of a few ways, such as:
1. In addition to the AC stuff it does now, it also adds your Int bonus to your CMB and CMD (partially negates penalty from CE).
2. Adds the AC bonus to your CMB and CMD (negates the penalty from CE on maneuvers).
3. Have CE function as fighting defensively for all intents and purposes: feats, abilities, traits, that modify fighting defensively also modify CE. So, for example, the Crane Style feat line would, in total, increase your AC bonus when using CE by 2, and reduce the penalty you take by 2 (3?). Yes, I know that this essentially makes CE free for a while, but if you're spending that many feats, why not?
4. Double the bonus provided by CE when wielding a shield, or when wielding only a single weapon in one hand.
5. Completely rewrite the feat and separate it entirely from its current form.
Also, to make Combat Expertise useful, it should let you ignore a bunch of the "nyah nyah, no AoO for you" powers like Point Blank Master.
How about this? Remove Combat Expertise as a prerequisite for all feats it is currently attached to.
Or, the way to make it useful would be to alter it in one of a few ways, such as:
1. In addition to the AC stuff it does now, it also adds your Int bonus to your CMB and CMD (partially negates penalty from CE).
2. Adds the AC bonus to your CMB and CMD (negates the penalty from CE on maneuvers).
3. Have CE function as fighting defensively for all intents and purposes: feats, abilities, traits, that modify fighting defensively also modify CE. So, for example, the Crane Style feat line would, in total, increase your AC bonus when using CE by 2, and reduce the penalty you take by 2 (3?). Yes, I know that this essentially makes CE free for a while, but if you're spending that many feats, why not?
4. Double the bonus provided by CE when wielding a shield, or when wielding only a single weapon in one hand.
5. Completely rewrite the feat and separate it entirely from its current form.
While all that is cool, I'm still in favor of a Trait which just gives you Combat Expertise as a Bonus Feat. Boom, done; you have your prereq and still all your normal Feats. Traits do little in the way of major bonuses usually, anyway.
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Lemmy had it right when he said the only reason so many feats have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite is its name. If it had a name that more accurately reflected what it does (e.g. Defensive Stance) you wouldn't see it nearly as often.
Lemmy had it right when he said the only reason so many feats have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite is its name. If it had a name that more accurately reflected what it does (e.g. Defensive Stance) you wouldn't see it nearly as often.Indeed. Not sure how to make the Devs know that making it prerequisite for so many combat styles is jsut horrible.
Unless I'm wrong, people have been complaining about CE being used as a prerequisite for so many things since the done of 3rd Edition, or at least the dawn of Pathfinder. If their minds were gonna be changed on this, they would've been changed a long time ago.
Since COmbat Expertise doesn't play nice with the fighting defensively rules, which do the same thing, COmbat Expertise should really be giving the ability to make all combat maneuvers without provoking attacks of opportunity.
THAT would make it worth it for a martial type to keep their Int at 13 or better.
Then the Greater feats could simply be rolled into the Improved feats.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I actually like Combat Expertise. I've had characters take it for its own sake and certainly have used it regularly. The fact that it boosts your touch AC has saved one of my characters form a ray-spamming bad guy who assumed touch AC is always super easy to hit.
I consider Point Blank Shot a feat tax. Just look at how often an archery ranger skips it.
Mounted Combat is a bit of a feat tax in PF. Now that Ride takes your armor check penalty, and it's easy to get a pretty good AC on your mount if you like, you're often in a situation where if you mount is actually hit you need like a 17+ on the d20 to negate it.
A lot of exotic weapons aren't really worth a feat. Some are, which makes it problematic when you have the same cost to learn the falcata as the sai.
Underpowered...does anyone ever take Spell Mastery? Seems like taking that feat is planning for failure.
Understandable. By itself Combat expertise is not horrible, it is ok, and have it uses. Using it as a prerequisite for things that have nothing to do with figthing defensively is that bad thing.I actually like Combat Expertise. I've had characters take it for its own sake and certainly have used it regularly. The fact that it boosts your touch AC has saved one of my characters form a ray-spamming bad guy who assumed touch AC is always super easy to hit.
That would be the case if there was not already rules for fighting defensively without the feat
Overall? Feat chains make me very sad, especially ones like Two-Weapon Fighting in which you're getting less and less out of each feat, incrementally, in the chain. The two-part combat maneuver feats really bug me. Etc.
Also, any feat that does something like give you +1 to some situational roll is a kick in the teeth. Feats should actually do something.
Which is why i houseruled all improved etc TWF feats out of my game and made iterative attacks something you get with your off-hand the same way as with your main hand. (also some other things, like making a standard attack with TWF one attack with each weapon and reducuing the penalties by 2)
Whirlwind attack is weak to me. Getting surrounded is not a good idea, and if you do get surround killing one of them is betting than hitting all of them once.
The dodge feat is weak to me also. Actually any feat that only gives a +1 bonus to AC is weak.
WA is something I have seen some guys like and do crazy tactics of jumping in the middle of a bunch of low level mooks and slaughtering them. It's fine if you like that.
Dodge is +1 to your Touch AC, and thus is quite worthwhile.
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Frankly - there's nothing wrong wtih feat taxes!
What do you do if you come up with a really cool idea for a feat - but it's a bit too good? You give it a feat tax of a mediocre feat so that it isn't OP!
And no - feats that give +1 to X should NOT scale with level. (except maybe for damage) It's a solid % increase - and as you level you can get more feats to stack with it.
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Which is why i houseruled all improved etc TWF feats out of my game and made iterative attacks something you get with your off-hand the same way as with your main hand. (also some other things, like making a standard attack with TWF one attack with each weapon and reducuing the penalties by 2)Overall? Feat chains make me very sad, especially ones like Two-Weapon Fighting in which you're getting less and less out of each feat, incrementally, in the chain. The two-part combat maneuver feats really bug me. Etc.
Also, any feat that does something like give you +1 to some situational roll is a kick in the teeth. Feats should actually do something.
So - you really like TWF and made it so there's no reason not to use it?
Whirlwind attack is weak to me. Getting surrounded is not a good idea, and if you do get surround killing one of them is betting than hitting all of them once.
The dodge feat is weak to me also. Actually any feat that only gives a +1 bonus to AC is weak.
WA is something I have seen some guys like and do crazy tactics of jumping in the middle of a bunch of low level mooks and slaughtering them. It's fine if you like that.
Dodge is +1 to your Touch AC, and thus is quite worthwhile.
I'd like Whirlwind Attack a lot if it wasn't so expensive to get. It is really nice for taking out a lot of low level mooks at once like you said, but you have to invest so much in it you kill your ability to do anything else.
As a note, as of Inner Sea Combat Rangers and Slayers can get it for free with the Sarenrae Combat Style. The list also has Improved Initiative, but the rest is pretty mediocre so I'd probably consider doing this with a Slayer so I don't have to take a third feat.
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So - you really like TWF and made it so there's no reason not to use it?Which is why i houseruled all improved etc TWF feats out of my game and made iterative attacks something you get with your off-hand the same way as with your main hand. (also some other things, like making a standard attack with TWF one attack with each weapon and reducuing the penalties by 2)Overall? Feat chains make me very sad, especially ones like Two-Weapon Fighting in which you're getting less and less out of each feat, incrementally, in the chain. The two-part combat maneuver feats really bug me. Etc.
Also, any feat that does something like give you +1 to some situational roll is a kick in the teeth. Feats should actually do something.
Is that an issue? I can't really think of reasons not to use Dodge, Toughness, or Weapon Focus.
Not every feat needs to be a Monkey's Paw. It's permissible for character powerups simply to power characters up.
No one brought up shadiw strike yet? Pretty much the definition of a feat tax, seeing as rogues cant SA in the dark without it.
Combat expertise is the worst offender otherwise, since it can outright turn people off of maneuvers not named sunder altogether.
While reckless rage from the acg isnt a tax, but is stupidly underpowered--its a PA addon that costs a feat and only grants 1/5 the effect of power attack.
No one brought up shadiw strike yet? Pretty much the definition of a feat tax, seeing as rogues cant SA in the dark without it.
The Rogue is used to being forgotten by now. In fact, it's probably better for everyone if we all forget that it exists.
While reckless rage from the acg isnt a tax, but is stupidly underpowered--its a PA addon that costs a feat and only grants 1/5 the effect of power attack.
Did you know you can take a feat that gives that feat's effect to your enemies? Frankly I have no idea why either of them exist.
So - you really like TWF and made it so there's no reason not to use it?Which is why i houseruled all improved etc TWF feats out of my game and made iterative attacks something you get with your off-hand the same way as with your main hand. (also some other things, like making a standard attack with TWF one attack with each weapon and reducuing the penalties by 2)Overall? Feat chains make me very sad, especially ones like Two-Weapon Fighting in which you're getting less and less out of each feat, incrementally, in the chain. The two-part combat maneuver feats really bug me. Etc.
Also, any feat that does something like give you +1 to some situational roll is a kick in the teeth. Feats should actually do something.
No, I really like TWF, so I made it so that taking the feat actually gives you an advantage (+1 point of damage over a two-handed fighter, the disadvantage against DR and in magical to hit bonus and the slight advantage in magical damage bonus not withstanding) rather than costing you a feat AND making you weaker in multiple aspects compared to a two-handed fighter.
Just to give you the rough idea:
Greatsword; cost: 0 feats: 1 attack at no penalty deals 2d6 + 1.5 STR damage
Longsword + Shortsword, cost: 1 feat: 2 attacks at -2 penalty to hit, deals 1d8+1d6+1.5 STR damage, which because it is divided into two attacks gets twice the damage reduction. Also if you move or do anything else it's only one attack at 1d8 + 1 STR. Each iterative attack costs you an extra feat, if you want to do it with both weapons and at least have a comparable damage rate to the greatsword wielder.
Additionally the greatsword guy only has to specialize on one weapon, if he wants to specialize. If the TWF guy wants to specialize he has to either specialize on two different weapon, or drop the longsword for a second shortsword and not even have the advantage of the 1d8 anymore, or drop the shortsword for a longsword and take an additional -2 pen.
With my changes it becomes
Longsword + Shortsword, cost: 1 feat: 2 attacks at no penalty, deals 1d8+1d6+1.5 STR damage, which because it is divided into two attacks gets twice the damage reduction.
You still have plenty of disadvantage just not as horrendously much as before.
Also, any feat that essentially just modifies an attack action (Vital Strike, for example), but is listed as a standard action, should be changed to simply be an attack action, so these feats can combine with stuff like Spring Attack.
The reason Vital Strike and the like are not attack actions are to prevent them from being used in a full attack. That said, there is no reason not to put in a line saying that such feats can be used with Spring Attack other than martials can't have nice things.
Also, any feat that essentially just modifies an attack action (Vital Strike, for example), but is listed as a standard action, should be changed to simply be an attack action, so these feats can combine with stuff like Spring Attack.The reason Vital Strike and the like are not attack actions are to prevent them from being used in a full attack. That said, there is no reason not to put in a line saying that such feats can be used with Spring Attack other than martials can't have nice things.
There has to be a way to word such feats to function with things like Spring Attack without specifically having to call out those interactions in the feats' descriptions, since A) that results in a lot of extra text, and B) doesn't work well for future-proofing.
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There has to be a way to word such feats to function with things like Spring Attack without specifically having to call out those interactions in the feats' descriptions, since A) that results in a lot of extra text, and B) doesn't work well for future-proofing.Also, any feat that essentially just modifies an attack action (Vital Strike, for example), but is listed as a standard action, should be changed to simply be an attack action, so these feats can combine with stuff like Spring Attack.The reason Vital Strike and the like are not attack actions are to prevent them from being used in a full attack. That said, there is no reason not to put in a line saying that such feats can be used with Spring Attack other than martials can't have nice things.
There is: "You cannot use [this] as part of a full attack action."
Quite simple and straightforward.
It would in fact help get ridof the constant confusion over what is a standard attack, what is an attack, what is an attack action and a full attack.
quiet threeshades, you're making sense! paizo might hear you.
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So - you really like TWF and made it so there's no reason not to use it?Which is why i houseruled all improved etc TWF feats out of my game and made iterative attacks something you get with your off-hand the same way as with your main hand. (also some other things, like making a standard attack with TWF one attack with each weapon and reducuing the penalties by 2)Overall? Feat chains make me very sad, especially ones like Two-Weapon Fighting in which you're getting less and less out of each feat, incrementally, in the chain. The two-part combat maneuver feats really bug me. Etc.
Also, any feat that does something like give you +1 to some situational roll is a kick in the teeth. Feats should actually do something.
No, I really like TWF, so I made it so that taking the feat actually gives you an advantage (+1 point of damage over a two-handed fighter, the disadvantage against DR and in magical to hit bonus and the slight advantage in magical damage bonus not withstanding) rather than costing you a feat AND making you weaker in multiple aspects compared to a two-handed fighter.
Just to give you the rough idea:
Greatsword; cost: 0 feats: 1 attack at no penalty deals 2d6 + 1.5 STR damage
Longsword + Shortsword, cost: 1 feat: 2 attacks at -2 penalty to hit, deals 1d8+1d6+1.5 STR damage, which because it is divided into two attacks gets twice the damage reduction. Also if you move or do anything else it's only one attack at 1d8 + 1 STR. Each iterative attack costs you an extra feat, if you want to do it with both weapons and at least have a comparable damage rate to the greatsword wielder.Additionally the greatsword guy only has to specialize on one weapon, if he wants to specialize. If the TWF guy wants to specialize he has to either specialize on two different weapon, or drop the longsword for a second shortsword and not even have the advantage of the 1d8 anymore, or drop the shortsword...
They'd be close IF precision damage didn't exist and IF no magical damage increases existed.