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Im grateful for the war priest. I get tired of seeing many bad battle clerics. When it comes to PFS the warpreist will be superior to the others. It comes down to the speed you can buff up to be doing good damage. Cleric and oracle have to go the reach AoO route to be effective first round. Warpreist lets you get right to it. This will actually be more helpful to newer players. Just get ready to see more fate's favored abuse.
Outside PFS and late levels the cleric s#!&s on all of them. The oracle has to resort to e ldritch heritage to try and catch up to the cleric. Warpriest is crushed under the weight of a 9th level prepared caster.
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I disagree with your out of combat role evaluation.
Oracles get more skill ranks than clerics, and some useful class skills, including perception for a battle oracle. And being charisma based, they make good party faces.
But clerics have domains, as you said, which sometimes offer flexibility. And they tend to be good at stuff like heal, diplomacy, and knowledge (religion).
I'd call that aspect a tie.
You also didn't look at non-spell combat abilities. Compare what clerics can do with their domains, oracles with their revelations, etc. I don't really know warpriests, so I don't know what to say there. But battle oracles get some great revelations, and with clerics, it depends on their domains.
I think a reason for no magic items would be to see how the classes compare to each other. Since they'd all have access to basically the same items. Not using magic items just simplifies the thought experiment.
Are inquisitors not allowed in?
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It actually favors the Warpriest, because Sacred Weapon becomes useful, but removes nearly all of the benefits the Cleric and Oracle have (metamagic Rods, wands and scrolls to cover their weak points or use Domain spells more than once, have back-ups for their uncommon spells they will not prep or choose, but might want to be able to use (Remove this/Cure that).
I'm sorry, how is this a thread again?
Warpriest is out because 3/4 BAB with 6th level spellcasting just doesn't cut it, especially by the endgame, since Warpriests have no really powerful mechanics to keep them in line with other similarly designed martials (Magi + Inquisitors). Also, 90% of blessings are crap anyway. Fervor is only good in combat when you need to both buff and attack at the same time, and if you're in situations like that, you're caught with your pants down and screwed anyway. Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armor become useless by the endgame, and by the early and mid game, they're still behind a Cleric because by the time they can buff with spells like Bull's Strength, for example, Cleric is already throwing out Blessing of Fervor.
Clerics are more powerful because 9th level spellcasting. Channel Energy and their increased spells per day and progression make them vastly superior to Warpriests. Who needs Sacred Weapon or Fervor when your increased spell progression can accomplish so much more than just hitting things with a stick?
Oracles have more skill points and arguably better features via Revelations and their Mystery, which can and usually are more suited to combat than the generic subject that is a Cleric. They also have access to some Oracle-only spells (some of which are really powerful), as well as the entire Cleric spell list. The only killer is the lowered spell progression and inability to have all spells known, but a lot like Schrodinger's Wizard, you memorize the spells you use frequently, and for those you need for emergency, you put in a Scroll. Not to mention there are items that provide you spells (such as Page of Spell Knowledge) for spontaneous casters. Outside that, you actually cast more spells if I remember right...
TL/DR; Oracles > Clerics > Warpriests.
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@bigdaddyjug, I have no idea what is supposed to be accomplished with that spell list. Considering the feats selected, I am not seeing any real reward for using up all of those fest slots. It feels super bland and like there is nothing to show for all the feats you've spent.
I'd rather grab Maneuver Mastery, Warsight and Skill at Arms and use Extra Revelation to pick up Surprising Charge, Battlefield Clarity and/or Weapon Mastery, then use Abundant Revelations on whichever one seems the most useful to reuse.
The spells make me feel like we weren't trying to win at combat, though the level 1 picks weren't bad.
Continual Flame and two Magic Vestments? I am looking at Archon's Aura, Deadly Juggernaut, Chain of Perdition, Dispel Magic, Prayer, Deeper Darkness, and on and on. No idea why continual flame is on an oracles list of spells known. But I do understand the decision to put in otherwise really lame spells because this exercise doesn't have gear so some spells are far more useful in light of that.
All that said, I'd rather have a metal oracle for battle, myself.
As much as I love oracles and love the addition of warpriest, I am thinking that the battle cleric is the way to go in the long run. You don't get everything. You can't. But you so get to cherry pick from almost all of the things you want. Clerics are fully capable of emphasizing any aspect of their design and martial capacity is one that comes with many tools to emphasize it.
I remember doing this in the playtest with a cleric and warpriest of gorum. Didn't do an oracle.
Here's what I discovered;
Numbers wise they're roughly the same the warpriest was better by dint of BAB. However without that advantage the cleric wins out. At the level I did it (11th) the fervor advantage was near nullified by quicken spell but the warpriest could do it much more often if they chose.
Why did they even make the Warpriest? The Inquisitor is just as good or better at everything.
Warpriest is so lackluster. The Blessings are not appealing at all. He does get Heavy armor but this is 3 AC bonus over all the cool stuff the Inquisitor gets. While burning Fervor to cast spells is cool, Inquisitor is going to use Bane instead. This doesn't burn two resources (fervor and spells). He still has Judgements, same casting, more skills, other class abilities like monster lore and Stern gaze.
....
*Sigh*
I feel they missed the boat. Warpriest needed Full BAB like it use to, to make the it the superior combatant. Now they are on par with the Inquisitor bringing a Boat load of utility.
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That's pretty much the belief I hear almost uniersally. Paizo listened to the wrong people and botched the Warpriest basically in every way possible. It fails to be a Paladin of any alignment, it fails to be a Fighter/Cleric hybrid, it fails to be a battle cleric, it fails to be a divine Magus, and it basically fails to do what it's supposed to do.
If you want a battle cleric, Fighter Cleric, or Paladin of any alignment, then either a Cleric dipped in Fighter or a Crusader Cleric is just better. Otherwise Inquisitor is just better.
The one and only thing it does better is to allow you to make a cleric of a non-war/battle deity, (all those that really shouldn't even have Warpriests) within the same ballpark as a Fighter-Cleric/Inquisitor/Crusader Cleric.
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Warpriest is still good in a low to mid level game. The accelerated feat access allows you access to feats FAR earlier than other 3/4 BAB classes, allowing you to make a niche as a vital strike specialist, Whip master, or Divine Magus. They are also better monks than monks with the Sacred Fist archetype. Blessings are not bad, and since most of them last a minute and you get a good amount of them you can pop them off without worry. I hope that we get more blessing options, perhaps with subdomain based blessings, but they are a nice extra right now.
At high levels, full casting > all.
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Well, people argue that paladins are amazing because they have full Bab, fighter HD, great saves, great armor and shield proficiencies, swift action healing, decent spells and smite.
The warpriest starts with average Bab and hp as well as two good saves. None of these things are bad for doing anything in the game (I know some people argue that going melee without having more than full Bab progression is impossible and that fighters Bab is the bare minimum allowed to have a tiny chance to ever hit). We all know that average Bab is -perfectly fine- for use in melee, especially when you can self buff.
The warpriest has swift action heals, more and better spells than a paladin, the same weapon and armor proficiencies but is also proficient with their deities favored weapon, giving it potentially more/better proficiencies. While they do not have smite evil the additional spells per day, higher level spell slots, channel energy, swift action buffing, free bonus combat feats, minor blessings, major blessings, free weapon focus and sacred weapon class feature all strike me as hugely more than making up for smite whatever.
If you wanted to play a paladin opwho wasn't stuck being lawful good only, or wanted to be a paladin but really needed some combat feats so you could do some visually satisfying actions, the warpriest let's you do that. The paladin is better than the warpriest in a few ways, definitely. The warpriest is easily better than the paladin in a few ways, too. You have a lot of variety now and I don't think that the warpriest is as much of a failing as has been suggested. It seems to top out at an excellent level of power to boot.
I just wish the blessings had a little bit more....pizazz. However, they are a nice way to get the effect of multiple domains if you're looking to grab special abilities.
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Okie dokie here we go
This here is a CG half orc warpriest of Gorum. We're eschewing traditional greatsword usage in favor of a superior longspear which is every bit as dangerous as a glaive at this level with less weight and cost. A bit of sacred tattoo and fate's favored to make our spells and saves stretch better adn we're good to go.
We went with level 10 as this is sort of the level where claims of tapering off have been coming from.
Here is a breif comparison cleric. She's mainly built for support but is only a rest stop away from full fledged battle mode.
So let's just look at raw numbers for now granting a single round of buffs. We'll assume the move action of both characters is spent moving into position.
Warpriest will start without holy ice weapon for now as it's a spell both can use. But I will say having 10 extra damage on a weapon you can enhance and is a nonstandard ice weapon is very sexy.
We will however give the warpriest extended moment of greatness and extended spiked armor. We'll give the cleric an extended Aid to be fair.
Alrighty in Round 1 buffing sequence is like this.
Warpriest will standard action in a blessing of Destruction for a +5 morale bonus on damage and swift action a Fervored Divine Power (+4 attack and damage, 10 hp, Haste Effect).
So in this round the Warpriest is sitting at a +20/+20/+15 on the attack for the warpriest. With a 1d10+20 on the damage.
The cleric (not quite a battle cleric mind but very close since they don't have much distinction in my mind) will do a quickened divine favor(+3 luck bonus to attack and damage (no fate's favored)) with a righteous might (+4 size bonus to strength).
Overall a mere +5 bonus to attack. But it comes with a nice solid boost to damage in the form of size and strength increases. The cleric sits at +20/+15 but with an extra +6.5 damage and a 20ft. reach. And keep in mind she can spend a move action to gain an extra +2 to both and her allies if she chooses. In fact we'll do that because YOLO.
Final Numbers after Rnd1.
Warpriest +20/+20/+15 1d10+20(25.5) Haste. Moved. (Spent blessing and 4th level spell)
Cleric +22/+17 2d6+15 (22) Increased Size. +2 to allies. No move.(Spent two fifth level spells)
This is the point where action economy sort of matters.
Swift actions are important and the warpriest is flush with them between fervor, sacred weapon/armor, and blessings.
Since our warpriest moved as having no other options we'll say he blesses himself again for strength. Note the enhancement bonus does not stack with the weapon enhancement giving him only +3. With power attack he's attacking at +23/+21/+16 for 1d10+29 (34.5)
That's enough damage to significantly harm an at CR creature without high damage or attack rolls. We can blow moment of greatness to chuck in another +5 on top of that or wait for an opportune crit to add 25 damage on the attack instead.
So a few things to note about this little exercise.
1. I could buff the cleric differently. A quickened Bless into a Divine Power would have given me HAste but no reach advantage. And if our cleric plays her support role anyway she'll get haste from Blessing of Fervor so no real reason to change it in all honesty.
2. Action economy and resource abundance is the real winner for the warpriest here. I have so many swift actions it's somewhat daunting. It pretty much encourages you to buff/full attack at every opportunity.
3. Holy Ice Weapon is a game changer for the warpriest who takes advantage of it. If we chose to have it our buff sequence would have use a standard divine power with a sacred weapon instead (for +1 and Holy). Our next round would still use the Strength enhancement for a sequence of +23/+20/+15 for 1d10+2d6+32. The damage is pretty good.
4. Overall the blessings just suck I am sad to say.
All things considered the warpriest and cleric fight about evenly with the warpriests having the advantage in action economy and resources they can call on (fervor, blessings, Sacred stuff, spells). I think a lot more variety can be found if people spent more time exploring rather than complaining. I deeply suspect the class can be really tanky under the right build. And more damage can be coaxed out of it with conductive weapons (utilizing negative fervors, touch spells and the like).
Right now I think we've more than covered that warpriests have a few good traits that need to be looked at and explored. It's good at the buff/attack game. But, it's one practiced by every spellcasting class. IT may be worth exploring other concepts and ideas and find uniqueness there rather than build another battlepriest.
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@Undone They are proficient with their deities favored weapon. I am quintuple checking this as I post- it's in the very first sentence of the weapon and armor proficiency.
I will have to look at this holy/unholy ice spell again Tark. You mentioned it as being a winner before and I really wasn't seeing it but I will look at them again. I love the flavor (cus they taste like Popsicles) but felt the spells didn't do enough.
Now having re-read it I somehow missed the bonus damage part on my first read-through. That is a pretty substantial amount of damage and its a static amount so better than adding elemental damage dice. I am sure that there are feats and traits that could munchkin out those spells as well allowing them to deal even more damage, last longer and maybe even ride effects. It looks pretty sweet. My cleric of Urgathoa wants an unholy ice scythe that debuffs on hit now.
Warpriest is so lackluster. The Blessings are not appealing at all. He does get Heavy armor but this is 3 AC bonus over all the cool stuff the Inquisitor gets. While burning Fervor to cast spells is cool, Inquisitor is going to use Bane instead. This doesn't burn two resources (fervor and spells). He still has Judgements, same casting, more skills, other class abilities like monster lore and Stern gaze.
....
*Sigh*
I feel they missed the boat. Warpriest needed Full BAB like it use to, to make the it the superior combatant. Now they are on par with the Inquisitor bringing a Boat load of utility.
I think those blessings should have been stronger since they took away full BAB. So much promise.. :(
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Made a war priest tonight for level 1. Did the fates favored and Scared tattoo abuse. 20 point buy no magical items. Just starting gold expendatures.
Str: 17, Dex 14, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 15, Cha: 7
Alternate Racial Traits: Scared tattoo and Unflinching Valor
Traits: Fate's Favored and Transmuter-(Bear's Endurance)
Feats: Weapon focus- Falchion, Toughness
Skills: Perception +3, Heal +6
Blessings of: Good and Protection
Level 1 stats: HP:14 AC:17-20 (+1 Blessing,+2 Shield,+3 Both)
F:+6 R:+4 W:+6 (+1 with blessing of Protection) (+2 racial against fear)
Initiative: +2
+4 2d4+4 attack routine
+6 2d4+6 Divine Favor Routine
+6 2d4+1d6 holy+6 Divine Favor and Good minor Blessing
18-20/x2 Critical threat range on all those.
Those are not bad numbers at all considering the Amazing defense you have on both saves and AC. A 14 HP is also a Decent HP pool. I did this with PFS rules in mind. THat is where a war priest will be at home. levels 1-12. Beyond that the Cleric will pull drastically ahead because of the spells alone.
But don't count a warpriest out totally. Those battle allies are good and the ability to swift cast fervor is good. Yes the cleric can with quicken spell but when a cleric gets Swift action divine favor you are swift casting higher level spells still.
War priest also is an easier class to play which is suppose to be more attractive to newer players to get them into playing pathfinder.
Now having re-read it I somehow missed the bonus damage part on my first read-through. That is a pretty substantial amount of damage and its a static amount so better than adding elemental damage dice. I am sure that there are feats and traits that could munchkin out those spells as well allowing them to deal even more damage, last longer and maybe even ride effects. It looks pretty sweet. My cleric of Urgathoa wants an unholy ice scythe that debuffs on hit now.
It is a very legit spell. Extending it is a no brainer. There's also traits that can up the caster level of it.
Rime spell + cleave sounds hilarious.
Sacred Weapon is a surprisingly good match for it since you can cast it in the same round you buff it having a solid upgraded weapon in hand for 25gp.
But yes I'm sure more shenanigans can be pulled with it.
first of - amazing writing Tark - as always.
but may i offer a mix to the chalange?
the cleric, who is a full caster that can also fight will act in another manner:
the cleric will take 2 domains : glory and ferocity. augument summon and sacred summon.
round 1: cleric summon as standard and use heroism to buff .
round 2: cleric use the time to cast righous might & quicken divine favor.
round 3: same.
now, if combat go not well, cleric fall back - summon and run in . all augumented monsters.
total damage of cleric need to be his + his summon friends.
The fun part about this is that the warpriest can actually pull the same trick from a roundabout way. He can cast summon monster, he has the aura class feature.
So, by that he can use Sacred Summons. Scarier still is that I can summon more critters.
It's a weird idea, but bear with me.
At 11th level, the top for PFS, Quicken Blessings come online.
At that point all we need is a steady aura around us.
So just by dint of worshiping Erastil we can use the Animal and Community blessings together to pop out a critter round after round without casting a single spell. Should they Aid Another or should they be nearby they'll gain a free +2 on their attacks.
That's without using fervor, sacred weapon, or any spells whatsoever. I can still use standard action summons to pop out other things if I choose. But the main thing, the thing to bear in mind going past 10th level, is that the warpriest actually beats out everyone in the speed they can pop out one summon. Sure we can summon more if we want, but very few people can boast popping out a swift action SNA 5 at level 5 and follow up with a full attack on a freshly flanked (and potentially grappled or tripped) opponent.
There are tricks you can pull with this class if you take the time to look at each ability and go "How do I exploit this?"
If you can exploit the ability chances are whatever you used to pull it off might have other applications.
Taking a deeper look at the blessings they are bad on an individual basis. BUT, they can be used to pull off interesting combos with one another that together make them more powerful than the sum.
It's limited only by the amount of blessings you can have and they last a minute. It costs two of them to quicken. So roughly 4/day if all you do is swift action summon. This is fair. Though an Elf who took the animal or plant domains can do it 2.5 more times by dint of the FCB.
If we actually deign to use spells we can pop out more as standard actions via sacred summons.
And since I'm here looking at things to exploit we have things like the Air Blessing.
The greater blessing seems pretty tame and standard until you read the last line:
"Whenever the ally succeeds at a charge attack
while flying, that attack deals an amount of additional
electricity damage equal to your level."
So basically, all we need is a ride (provided by animal ally) and a good force multiplier (a lance and spirited charge) to turn a modest buff to damage into a seriously dangerous boon.
At 10th level we're talking about holy ice lances dropping from the sky for 3d10+62 or so before we add in things like strength, feats, or other buffs.
The inquisitor and the paladin also have access to the great "litany of" line of spells (all of them swift action spells) which the warpriest doesn't have, the paladin even gets a few earlier since he has a proper spell list suited to him which the warpriest again doesn't have.
The inquisitor and the paladin also have access to the great "litany of" line of spells (all of them swift action spells) which the warpriest doesn't have, the paladin even gets a few earlier since he has a proper spell list suited to him which the warpriest again doesn't have.
Honestly I don't think I want more uses of my swift actions.
So what else can we abuse?
Well, abadar has Travel and Nobility. Which on a cleric are nice.
On a warpriest I can dual wield kukris backed by weapon focus, weapon specialization, and deal 1d10/ 18-20x2 each. With quicken blessing I can swift action teleport and full attack. Courageous weapons can turn a raw boost of enhancement bonus from sacred weapon into a fair boost for all my attacks.
Since we're going to have a lot of attacks anyway with high damage, high crit range weapons later considerations can see us taking Critical Focus and friends.
There's lots you can do.