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So...this has some odd synergy and I was wondering if anyone knows anything about it. Sorry if this has been asked.
1) So Monks and Sacred fist get wisdom to AC, one is supernatural the other is extraordinary. That means they stack as each is untyped correct?
2) If you take flurry with both classes (for some reason not stacking with an archetype that gave up flurry) do they stack? They are not parent classes, so it is ambiguous on whether or not they do. I suspect its supposed to be no, but as written it seems as if it very well may.
3) Does pummeling style work with all weapons or only unarmed strike? I believe the intent is that it doesn't, but raw it seems to ATM, which makes it really crazy! I see crit fishing TWFING with a 15-20 in one hand and a x4 in the other!
Regards!
1) Don't know yet. Kinda yes, maybe no. Hopefully Paizo will finally tell us how to handle multiple additions of the same score. But I think for now it's a yes because they are different.
2) No they don't stack. You have a warpriest flurry and a monk flurry that aren't the same.
3) Again, don't know. There are 3 or more threads where people are debating/arguing over this very thing. Hope for a FAQ soon. For safety use only unarmed strikes, if you know your DM use whatever he's okay with.
Thanks! Its mostly for PFS, as I'm on the fence about what to allow/use in my own campaigns.
1) My reading RAW is that you add your wisdom modifier for one class, and that fills the class ability for the other (you've already added your wisdom modifier, check). So they would not stack.
2) They stack towards determining your total level of flurry of blows. 1 lvl monk + 1 lvl sacred fist = 2 levels monk for the progression. One of the things about archetypes is you can never gain the class ability you gave up by any other means, so you could not go monk master of many styles (as an example) and then sacred fist.
3) It is a punch. Can you punch with the other weapons? Some of them yes (pommel strike), most no.
1) the thing is they are different types of abilities. So that doesn't work.
2) They don't stack, you would have two separate flurries. This is more so shown by the warpriest levels not counting as monk levels. Also, you totally can get the class ability from a different class. A fighter could trade out weapon training and then go magus or monk archetypes to get it back.
3) it's not clear. both sides have valid points.
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1) There's nothing that would stop both abilities from working together. Nothing in the phrase, "gain wisdom to AC" prevents it from stacking with a different source that also adds wisdom, or charisma, or dexterity to ac. They clearly stack. Bonuses from different sources stack. In this case, one source is ex, and one is su. Different sources. By raw, they stack. Just like a +1 from luck and a +1 from dodge.
2) These guys don't stack.
3) debate ongoing. Raw would seem to imply the damage is delivered by a punch, but makes no mention as to the attacks that can contribute to the total damage that is delivered.
My understanding:
1) I would say that you get the Wisdom bonus only once.
2) I would say that monk levels and sacred fist levels stack.
3) The feat... seems to be adamant that you must use it with an unarmed strike. If you have the ability to apply unarmed strike effects and feats to manufactured weapons, then I suppose you could pummel with them.
The debate's ongoing for a simple reason - not all unarmed strikes are punches, and not all punches are unarmed strikes. The feat requires substantial adjudication as written, because it's not written well. If I have a character who makes unarmed strikes because his hands are full, can he use this at all? If my full attack normally includes attacks that could be considered "punching" and attacks that can't, which ones do I roll as part of the "number of attacks you can make with a full attack"? Just the ones that are "punching", or all of them?
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I'll put in that the wisdom should stack, from what I've read here, because one is dodge and the other is untyped[deflection? not sure], so they are different "types" of damamge. Also, for the Pummeling Style, its probably safest to play it as "Unarmed Strikes Only" because that would be the oddest thing to push out of the feat[I get that not all Unarmed Strikes are punches, but why can't I punch with unarmed strikes?].
3) >.> Side A says read text (it's a punch), side B says "but I don't like that." <.<
For those who are interested, the real argument is more like
Side B:Punch is not a defined game term. There are game terms described as punches, such as Unarmed Strikes, attacks made with Brass Knuckles, attacks made with Cesti[Cestuses? Cestapods?], attacks made with Gauntlets, attacks made with Spike Gauntlets, and attacks made with Punching Daggers. Why is a Headbutt[another form of unarmed strike] more of a punch than a Brass-Knuckle attack?
Side C:Pummeling Style with Naginata's and Nodachi's would be ludicrously powerful. Limiting this to unarmed strikes is a nice way of balancing, since then the criticals are only 20/x2. So it should be limited for flavor and balance.
1. An ability score is not a bonus type so yes they stack. If anything with them being untyped bonuses from different sources they would stack. I don't think it was intended to work that way so I would not build a character around it for PFS since the errata that I expect to come will likely hurt your character
2. No they don't stack.
3. By RAW and RAI it seems to be only for punches, and I hope that crit mechanism is nerfed, no matter if they allow it for other weapons or not.
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Hmm, *looks for a "Bonus (Wisdom)" in the OGC*:
Bonus (Alchemical)
Bonus (Armor)
Bonus (Circumstance)
Bonus (Competence)
Bonus (Deflection)
Bonus (Dodge)
Bonus (Enhancement)
Bonus (Insight)
Bonus (Luck)
Bonus (Morale)
Bonus (Natural Armor)
Bonus (Profane)
Bonus (Racial)
Bonus (Resistance)
Bonus (Sacred)
Bonus (Shield)
Bonus (Size)
Bonus (Trait)
These are all the sources of bonuses as listed in the rules. If something isn't here, (and please correct me if I am wrong, the Wisdom bonus is explicitly NOT here), then it is unnamed.
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
The wisdom bonus is from two different classes with two different names (Armor Bonus (Su) and Armor Bonus (Ex)) and they have different effects (dodge vs deflection). They patently cannot be the same source.
I know I'm probably not convincing you, but I like showing my work. Strict RAW, the bonuses stack.
prototype00
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1)
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Wisdom is the source of the bonus for both abilities, so they do not stack.
3) I agree with the people who have posted here, it's a punch. The argument is not really as you're providing it though; generally it is between people like you who say a punch can be any of a number of reasonable actions and people who say "well I want to dual wield keen kukris and a small scythe so I can use the slashing damage from both as a punch and use the high crit rate and multiplier." Which is wrong because making an attack with a pommel deals a d6 of damage and has a 20/x2 crit range/multiplier regardless of those two weapon's base statistics. If you point this out to them they get really angry because they don't want to deal with the feat as written - most people on the other side of this debate want to treat "punch" as flavor text. There are a couple of legitimate punching weapons which do not follow 20/x2, but almost no one on the forums is talking about those.
I can't really say much in the way of 1, as I haven't read Sacred Fist[it isn't on the SRD, and it's abilities, specifically the one in question, hasn't been posted AFAIK]. But for the next bit, its the arguments presented on the 2 or 3 threads about this that I saw, mixed in with a bit of "that is just fluff, it isn't rules text" and a bit of the word "munchkin" getting thrown at people who actually thought the intent was to work with all weapons. At least, that's what I gleamed from the threads there[I'm of position 2].
The question would be "same source as in class ability," or "same source as in the thing which provides the bonus (wisdom stat)."
I choose the latter because I think it's more in keeping with the intent of the rules. You are free to interpret it otherwise.
In either case we're looking at an untyped bonus, and that particular segment of bolded text.
EDIT: I'd also point out that Su vs Ex is just an ability type, not an actual source for the ability. Since they're otherwise just "AC Bonus" I'd tend to rule that they don't stack anyways, but that's an interpretation.
The source(class features, feat, trait, magic item, etc) is what provides and dictates the bonus type. The number in and of itself is not a source. The bonus type and source and two different things.
With one being EX and other being SU they are not the exact same which makes them different, at least by RAW. However I don't expect for this to go unerrata'd. They(PDT) might say they are still the same ability, and therefore don't stack despite one being SU.
Could you link me to something which supports your assertion about sources?
In this case the bonus type is the same "unlisted," but yes if one AC bonus said "deflection," and the other said "bonus to AC (untyped). You are right they would stack. That is not the case, hence the discussion.
They are not the exact same, and one says the source is from a deity, which further obfuscates things. Su vs Ex are ability types though, not sources so they don't factor in.
Sources are not defined so I can't give you a general rule, but I can provide an example.
Mirror image is an example. You can't keep casting mirror image spells to get more images. The images are not the source of the bonus. The spell is the source of the bonus. If you keep casting it you just get the highest number of images rolled.
Just because something(feat/class features/etc) provides an ability mod bonus to something else that does not mean feats/class features/etc stop becoming sources.
If they errata the Warpriest AC bonus to not stack with the Monk one, I hope they change it from Deflection to a Dodge bonus. Kinda lame that a Monk can use a Ring of Protection but the Warpriest can't.
I have not read over the entire class, but why cant they use rings of protection?
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If they errata the Warpriest AC bonus to not stack with the Monk one, I hope they change it from Deflection to a Dodge bonus. Kinda lame that a Monk can use a Ring of Protection but the Warpriest can't.I have not read over the entire class, but why cant they use rings of protection?
The Warpriest AC bonus[from Sacred Fist] gives a deflection bonus at 4th level and every 4 levels afterwards. Same as the ring.
@Trekkie:Thanks for summarizing it! Pretty sure it does stack now[Sacred Fist's ability is SU, provides deflection bonuses later on, and provides an untyped bonus at first. Monk ability is EX, provides dodge bonuses later, and is also untyped at first]. Still, YMMV.
Could you link me to something which supports your assertion about sources?
In this case the bonus type is the same "unlisted," but yes if one AC bonus said "deflection," and the other said "bonus to AC (untyped). You are right they would stack. That is not the case, hence the discussion.
They are not the exact same, and one says the source is from a deity, which further obfuscates things. Su vs Ex are ability types though, not sources so they don't factor in.
Sources are not defined so I can't give you a general rule, but I can provide an example.
Mirror image is an example. You can't keep casting mirror image spells to get more images. The images are not the source of the bonus. The spell is the source of the bonus. If you keep casting it you just get the highest number of images rolled.
Just because something(feat/class features/etc) provides an ability mod bonus to something else that does not mean feats/class features/etc stop becoming sources.
By this line of reasoning a Ninja with a racial extraordinary ability to become invisible would be able to stack that and vanishing trick to become invisible while invisible. The same could happen if they used vanishing trick while under the effects of the invisibility spell.
EDIT: Which would give you 2x total concealment, a +4 bonus on attack rolls vs sighted opponents, and you would ignore twice your opponent's dex bonus to ac.
Invisible is a condition that you either have or not have. Invisible isn't a good example. a better example would be using Kirin style and studied shot. This one gives multiple Int mod to damage.
An AC bonus isn't a condition. IT's a bonus. Until we get an official answer of whether or not ability scores can be added twice we have nothing to say we can't.
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So...this has some odd synergy and I was wondering if anyone knows anything about it. Sorry if this has been asked.
1) So Monks and Sacred fist get wisdom to AC, one is supernatural the other is extraordinary. That means they stack as each is untyped correct?
2) If you take flurry with both classes (for some reason not stacking with an archetype that gave up flurry) do they stack? They are not parent classes, so it is ambiguous on whether or not they do. I suspect its supposed to be no, but as written it seems as if it very well may.
3) Does pummeling style work with all weapons or only unarmed strike? I believe the intent is that it doesn't, but raw it seems to ATM, which makes it really crazy! I see crit fishing TWFING with a 15-20 in one hand and a x4 in the other!
Regards!
1. I say it works, they are indeed untyped and come from different sources of power. While only the untyped is what matters, one could reasonablly argue its the same ability if not from the ability type. I'd allow it, though I allow just about anything.
2. No, because two instances of Two Weapon Fighting do not stack, and that's how Flurry works.
3. By RAW, there is nothing preventing you from pummeling people into the ground with an Earthbreaker. RAI is fairly obvious they want it to be UAS only.
*Sigh* I've decided not to use anything from ACG until the first FAQ comes out, as I suspect this book need A LOT of changes. The number of typos alone is staggering(I count at least 4 archetypes where it says "this ability replaces ." and nothing, not to mention what seem to be incomplete thought fragments), and the amount of ambiguity throughout so much of the book is staggering. I'm really disappointed in Paizo on this one:( Thanks for all your thoughts.
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Rushed book, changes after playtest, no playtest of archetypes or feats... problems reach shelves :(
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So...this has some odd synergy and I was wondering if anyone knows anything about it. Sorry if this has been asked.
1) So Monks and Sacred fist get wisdom to AC, one is supernatural the other is extraordinary. That means they stack as each is untyped correct?
2) If you take flurry with both classes (for some reason not stacking with an archetype that gave up flurry) do they stack? They are not parent classes, so it is ambiguous on whether or not they do. I suspect its supposed to be no, but as written it seems as if it very well may.
3) Does pummeling style work with all weapons or only unarmed strike? I believe the intent is that it doesn't, but raw it seems to ATM, which makes it really crazy! I see crit fishing TWFING with a 15-20 in one hand and a x4 in the other!
Regards!
My Thoughts:
1) Well, by RAW as of now, Yes. At a GM's table, probably not due to coming from the same source and also having the "same name". I was actually denied this at a table recently, sadly.2) There is a lot of yes and no. The way I feel; If it says "functions as Monk ability of same name", I assume it functions just like Flurry of Blows and it would combine with your Monk levels(assuming that monk still has FoB). If all else fails, just add your Monk BAB to your new Flurry BAB. Honestly, no one at the table will notice either way. Hell, most fighters get away with never taking a -2 or -4 when using TWF at the table.
3) It's intent is very clear - Unarmed and/or Close Weapons. If the intent was to allow ALL weapons to utilize this style, then EVERY martial will go for this and suffer the one to two levels of MoMS just for this purpose. It's essentially a free pounce and a chance to round up all of your landed hits into one giant crit - at the cost of two measily and most likely bonus feats.
I did leave a FAQ btw, and thank you for posting about it. Even if it is repeating itself, it raises awareness of the issue further.
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So...this has some odd synergy and I was wondering if anyone knows anything about it. Sorry if this has been asked.
1) So Monks and Sacred fist get wisdom to AC, one is supernatural the other is extraordinary. That means they stack as each is untyped correct?
2) If you take flurry with both classes (for some reason not stacking with an archetype that gave up flurry) do they stack? They are not parent classes, so it is ambiguous on whether or not they do. I suspect its supposed to be no, but as written it seems as if it very well may.
3) Does pummeling style work with all weapons or only unarmed strike? I believe the intent is that it doesn't, but raw it seems to ATM, which makes it really crazy! I see crit fishing TWFING with a 15-20 in one hand and a x4 in the other!
Regards!
1) Yes in PFS for now. To be honest it looks bad but in reality it almost matches up with full plate at the start. Later you just have AC not 0. I'd be inclined to hope this stays.
1) I feel there is a LOT of just plain butthurt and jealousy, along with misunderstanding. What happens is the Monk/Warpriest just gets frontloaded with all of that AC, but down the road, he doesn't gain anything else. That deflection bonus from the growing SF AC Bonus just gets overridden by Ring of Deflection; and generally Ring of Deflection is one of the ring's of choice by many martials. Of course you'd be at an AC of 18 with a Str/Wis or Str/Dex build from just two levels(14 from 1 level), but that's not uncommon by any means. Dex/Wis builds would bump you to a pretty high 22 ac after two levels(18 at level 1); though you'd suffer for god knows how long with damage and possibly contribution to the group. To really top it off; we still do not get to wear armor and get the very needed brawling enchant
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Technically, you can go MoMS/Sohei for your Sacred Fist dip, and Flurry in light armor.
Probably. It's not specifically stated that you lose Flurry when wearing armor, but since the Sacred Fist has no proficiency, I think it's probably an oversight or purposeful omission to save space, and that you're likely supposed to.
Technically, you can go MoMS/Sohei for your Sacred Fist dip, and Flurry in light armor.
Probably. It's not specifically stated that you lose Flurry when wearing armor, but since the Sacred Fist has no proficiency, I think it's probably an oversight or purposeful omission to save space, and that you're likely supposed to.
Good point! Hope we get some clarification soon cause that is a solid combo if it doesn't kill Flurry.
The Sohei wasn't intended to flurry in armour originally either, but they wound up FAQing it that they can since that's what they printed. I suspect that Sacred Fist will go the same way. Short of issuing actual errata for the book that inserts new text, I don't see any way that they can rule that a sacred fist can't flurry in armour when a Sohei can.