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I was going to make a thread where I linked to every thread with overpowered in the title, simply to demonstrate how many there were, and how ridiculous those assertions can sometimes be.
Then I realized that there were just too many, so I'm settling for the link above.
How do you feel about how crazy overpowered everything has become? ;P
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It is nonsense. People just need to realize there is a difference between "____ is broken" and "_____ is broken/OP for my group/table".
Many times it is a case of someone's houserules of someone not using a rule correctly that is the problem.
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"Kobolds are overpowered"
S@@%, if Kobolds are overpowered, everything else MUST be.
Back to 2nd edition!
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It is nonsense. People just need to realize there is a difference between "____ is broken" and "_____ is broken/OP for my group/table".
Many times it is a case of someone's houserules of someone not using a rule correctly that is the problem.
I find just as often it has to do not so much with a misunderstanding of the rules but a misconception about how the rules interact with the greater game.
OFten when you look at bigger pictures (like caster martial-disparity) you find greater subtleties of arguments overwhelmed by the sheer volume of hanging on to a few facts.
I can't be the first one to notice how a lot of caster-martial disparity threads comes down to a wizard and a fighter the strongest of one compared to the weakest of the other. Often people get so caught up in the argument itself they fail to be objective and make observations from more angles.
I'll get more into this but it's 2am here so maybe later.
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Yeah, some people get so aggro about the term overpowered or optimized, and especially munchkin.
We use those terms pretty loosely now and you're right about it being different from one table to the next.
I've only found a few, less than 10, archtypes/feats/something else that I would deem as overpowered. Most could be used in a "normal" way, but the way they work, they're just asking to be abused to full extent. Even then I wouldn't say that they're crazy overpowered and can't ever be used.
I think most overpowered complaints spawn from unbalanced groups, where one player have gone all in and the others not soo much. And that's still nothing a DM with the head at the right place can't fix. There'll never be a situation where a player will overpower the DM.
+1
DM's sometimes need to say no to players to keep their games balanced. Far too often they let things go without even reading what they do - it's a recipe for disaster!
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Ironically I find that the theorycrafting that proves something in the game is OP falls apart when the players hit the table IRL. I have a fairly well optimized Summoner 2 at the table that should be ruling every fight. So far the Halfling sorcerer 2 has been dominating with Acid Splash of all things.
Another guy I know went nearly all defense: Combat Expertise, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, sword and board paladin with only modest Str and Con in favor of Cha. When he played however even after using Fight Defensively for a round to get into position he would then take center stage with quick thinking, tactics and roleplaying. The only reason his PC died is he was caught in the open by a young wyvern at level 2.
I guess my point is when EVERYTHING is overpowered then NOTHING is, or at least that's how it seems to play at my table. I haven't gotten above 6th level before a campaign had to be disbanded for some reason so maybe my experience doesn't count but still, that's my 2CP.
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Mark, nearly all the assertions I see from the theory crafters and RAW discussions on these boards fail at the table.
RL tables aren't sterile environments where conditions remain constant between rolls. It effectively means any stat analysis is pointless for reality (but do make good reads at times for things to be prepared for if arguments pop up).
I reckon as long as the person playing their character is enjoying themselves, and so is everyone else at the table, then all is well.
Interestingly, since all these threads are being necro'd lately, it's amusing to note the same arguments now as back in 2010 or earlier.
Seems power creep isn't happening and all the changes introduced haven't changed the arguments people make.
In the end, I think Roleplay won on the day!
Cheers
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I don't think that it's a matter of theortcraft always breaking down at the table, just not being as pronounced or taking longer to manifest. I mean heck, my crappy summoner with only 2 levels of it has had far more opportunities to influence the narrative than my mythic gunslinger who, despite having a 22 int and a bazillion skills and a great umd score is still mostly regulated to only being able to kill stuff and that's it.
I admit that theorycrafting can not come up on table or be flat out wrong, but it's not all bunk and some of it can be verified.
Dont forget there are different kinds of power. Usually when people claim something is 'overpowered' they mean situational power. A paladin doing a bagillion damage when smiting the big bad is power. A fair amount of it.
But in terms of influencing the story, thats narrative power. The paladins smite is limited in that sake. Since even if he's doing it alot, attacking the big bad is an expected part of the story. Same with your gunslinger, one way or another he's going to shoot things. And his skills while useful act in much the same way, they opersate within the story.
But magic, well thats a whole different ballgame. Magic can literally change the story. Instead of fighting your way through a trapped hallway, you are flying calmly over it while your enemies are blind, confused and in a pit. Instead of having to convince the king to arrest the evil noble, the kings your best friend now, and of course he'll do you a solid and throw that jerk in jail. Instead of walking to mount doom, teleport, drop, teleport, done.
That is narrative power. Thats the ability to change the story. And generally for whatever reason (probably conditioning) we are more sensitive to situational power (how much damage the paladin does) vs narrative power.
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(Paraphrased for my amusement:)
Magic can literally ruin the story... Instead of having to convince the king to arrest the evil noble, the king's your best friend now, and of course he'll do you a solid and throw that jerk in jail. Instead of walking to Mount Doom, teleport, drop, teleport, done.
That is narrative power. That's the ability to ruin the story. And generally for whatever reason (probably the fact that most players don't try to ruin the story) we are more sensitive to combat power (how much damage the paladin does) vs narrative power.
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I was going to make a thread where I linked to every thread with overpowered in the title, simply to demonstrate how many there were, and how ridiculous those assertions can sometimes be.
Then I realized that there were just too many, so I'm settling for the link above.
How do you feel about how crazy overpowered everything has become? ;P
I blame MMORPGs for this... That is all.
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I don't. I blame the internet. Before the internet there weren't quite so many arguments all over the boards. ;P
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I don't. I blame the internet. Before the internet there weren't quite so many arguments all over the boards. ;P
Good point!
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Every table is different - this is absolutely the most important part of this thread.
Granted that was only a single session, but I don't believe it was an uncharacteristic one - there's a reason I recorded the damage. So far, none of the players in the group has complained, and after a few conversations with the player (who was initially hesitant), he is open to some alterations. Now, he is actually interested in trying to play a single shot archer Slayer with vital strike - which is a conversation for another time/place. For now, my plan is to leave things be and keep tracking the character's performance compared to the baseline of the rest of the group. Once I have a better idea (supported by more data), I'll take up the topic with the player again and see what solutions we can come up with.
Is the Zen Archer archetype "over-powered"...? The answer to that question depends on the baseline it's compared to. In the case of the specific Zen Archer in question compared to the rest of the character in the same game, it exceeds the baseline by a rather large margin.
The game needs to remain fun for all involved, and if one character is significantly overshadowing the others, no matter how rules legal it may be, it is highly likely that someone will be unhappy in time. In this case, it's best to talk out any concerns, person to person, preferably before it becomes a major problem.
(Paraphrased for my amusement:)
Magic can literally ruin the story... Instead of having to convince the king to arrest the evil noble, the king's your best friend now, and of course he'll do you a solid and throw that jerk in jail. Instead of walking to Mount Doom, teleport, drop, teleport, done.
That is narrative power. That's the ability to ruin the story. And generally for whatever reason (probably the fact that most players don't try to ruin the story) we are more sensitive to combat power (how much damage the paladin does) vs narrative power.
One person's ruin is another person's participate. Its pretty self centered to assume that the only way to play is the way you play. Since there are literally entire game systems designed for collective story telling(where players have significant control over the story) as opposed to single person story telling (where the gm entirely controls the story) so the idea that some people might play in a fashion where the wizard charming an important npc is something other then 'ruining' it is rather reasonable.
That said, the point here is not how much does one restrain themselves in excersizing power (as you mentioned some casters will choose to be less intrusive on the story with their spells and abilities). A fighter could easily choose to do less damage by for instance not taking power attack.
The issue is ofcourse some people wont do that. And the system should be designed in such a way that people shouldnt have to deliberately avoid certain options to not be problematic. Hence some things being 'overpowered'.
I agree. Pathfinder is way overpowered. It's time to go back to playing Bunnies & Burrows.
A surprisingly good game, for it's time.
Mark, nearly all the assertions I see from the theory crafters and RAW discussions on these boards fail at the table.
RL tables aren't sterile environments where conditions remain constant between rolls. It effectively means any stat analysis is pointless for reality (but do make good reads at times for things to be prepared for if arguments pop up).
So true.
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Someone needs to nerf this thread. Talking about how everything is overpowered is way overpowered.
I am not certain that I feel any particular class or archtype is over powered or broken (master summoner might be). However, there are some few that are very easy (read very little system mastery required) to put them into the top tier power level. If the rest of your group doesn't or can't try to build top tier power level characters, then things will seem way out of whack.
Slumber hex witch. Is relatively easy to get it as good as possible. High intelligence is pretty much all there is to it. So a raw noob will have his witch nearly as effective as possible with his primary ability.
Is it really more powerful than the dhampir dirge bard/undead and serpentine sorcerer / enchanter with etc... No. But that raw noob wouldn't have that combo nor know how to use it properly.
So at a table of noobs, the slumber witch seems way too powerful. At a table of optimizing veterans, it is pretty good but not all that special.
Same with the summoning druid and master summoner. It is difficult to not be effective when you summon gangs of creatures to do you fighting for you. Plus there is little build effect necessary. The monsters are already stat'd up for you.
There are also some builds that are not necessarily easy to come up with, but that someone with little skill mastery can get here on the boards and play just fine.
Had one of those recently. Our group doesn't optimize too much (substantially better than pregens but no where in league of the DPR olympics). One of the guys wanted to do an archer but isn't really that great at understanding and building complicated concepts. So he just did a search, wrote down what was listed, and has a fully optimized paladin archer. Still pretty easy to play even if he couldn't have come up with it himself. Single attack with these bonuses or full attack with those bonuses. He dominated most combats in the last campaign.
So most of the players were talking about how horrifically overpowered a paladin archer is. I had to sit down and stat up a few other optimized builds I copied off these boards at the same level (used an invulnerable rager, shape changing druid, and I think a cavalier of some sort) to show them it really wasn't that special.
It was just combat optimized way beyond the rest of the group.
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hey
stop
I know the thread title isn't serious, but some people really do feel this way. E6 exists for a reason. (JoeJ's E1 is perhaps a bit extreme...)
Ironically I find that the theorycrafting that proves something in the game is OP falls apart when the players hit the table IRL. I have a fairly well optimized Summoner 2 at the table that should be ruling every fight. So far the Halfling sorcerer 2 has been dominating with Acid Splash of all things.
Another guy I know went nearly all defense: Combat Expertise, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, sword and board paladin with only modest Str and Con in favor of Cha. When he played however even after using Fight Defensively for a round to get into position he would then take center stage with quick thinking, tactics and roleplaying. The only reason his PC died is he was caught in the open by a young wyvern at level 2.
I guess my point is when EVERYTHING is overpowered then NOTHING is, or at least that's how it seems to play at my table. I haven't gotten above 6th level before a campaign had to be disbanded for some reason so maybe my experience doesn't count but still, that's my 2CP.
I think that the theorycrafting and is not always theorycrafting, but it still may not work at a certain table because of how another person runs a game. The problem is that once something does not work at a person's table they just assume it is not valid. They should say "that does not work for me".
PS: That was not directed at your Mark, but I have seen posters mention table experience and another post still call it theorycrafting as if it did not really happen.
Given the complexity of the rules for every version of D&D, including Pathfinder, it is not unreasonable to say that the systems are designed for people with above average intelligence. The "problem" is that it is played by people who aren't. Obviously this isn't a real problem, it's just a matter of perception. When a person of above average intelligence makes full use of something geared towards him/her a person of lesser intelligence will generally see it as unfair because they can't grasp the mechanics at the same level.
Cries of "OVERPOWERED!!!11!1!!11!" simply indicate that not everyone at the table is playing at the same level. That isn’t a mechanics problem, it's a player problem.
I know the thread title isn't serious, but some people really do feel this way. E6 exists for a reason. (JoeJ's E1 is perhaps a bit extreme...)What do you mean extreme? As in too overpowered? Do you think it would help if I limit the PCs to just 1 hp? Maybe I should only allow PCs to play 1 hp tiny lizards.
Lizards can climb on walls and stuff. That's too much. Only allow goats.
I know the thread title isn't serious, but some people really do feel this way. E6 exists for a reason. (JoeJ's E1 is perhaps a bit extreme...)What do you mean extreme? As in too overpowered? Do you think it would help if I limit the PCs to just 1 hp? Maybe I should only allow PCs to play 1 hp tiny lizards.
You've got to watch the stacking of those Size bonuses to AC, so maybe they can act as Tiny creatures except for any benefits ;)
How do you feel about how crazy overpowered everything has become? ;PI gave up on talking to anyone who claimed any such thing was over-powered when a friend re-counted a conversation when someone informed him that Skill Focus was an over-powered feat.
Yeah, don't know how to address that one.
Now, I am not one of those who think the Rogue is a terrible class, but we often get threads about how some rogue with sneak attack is horribly OP and ruing the campaign.
We do?
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We do?
Yeah. We see them from time to time. Generally it's some GM lamenting his low level experiences.
Level 3-4 is the rogue sweet spot.
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Everything is Overpowered!...you misspelled AWESOME.
lol.
You are confused. These are the pathfinder boards, not DOTA or DOTA 2.
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Yeah, some people get so aggro about the term overpowered or optimized, and especially munchkin.
We use those terms pretty loosely now and you're right about it being different from one table to the next.
In my experience people get upset about being called a munchkin because the term is used negatively to describe a player motivation rather than a player's preferred power level.
Ie. (This has happened to a BUNCH of folks I know) You sit down to your first game experience with your friends. There are a lot of things to learn and you want to pick up info as fast as possible. Someone helps get you started with your character and tells you how to add the numbers up and where they go on your character sheet.
You decide, "I want to play a dude who whoops ass with his bare hands and always has a cutting jib on the tip of his tongue. Someone good at intrigue, with bunches of nefarious contacts. He will need a cover for his illicit activities so I'll need to look at that too."
You build:
Garak (half-Orc)
Fighter (unarmed specialist) 4, Rogue 1
STR 13
DEX 11
CON 13 (11+2)
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 14
Skills
Profession (tailor) 3 ranks
Know (geography) 3 ranks
Know (local) 3 ranks
Sense motive 3 ranks
Bluff 2 ranks
Diplomacy 2 ranks
Appraise 2 ranks
Linguistics 2 ranks
Stealth 2 ranks
Climb 1 rank
Swim 1 rank
Intimidate 1 rank
Heal 1 rank
Know (history) 1 rank
Know (nobility) 1 rank
Perception 1 rank
UMD 1 rank
Feats:
1: athletic
F: run
F2: combat expertise
3: deceitful
F4: improved feint
5:endurance
And then you get to the table to play and you find out VERY QUICKLY that almost all of your choices suck. They either have no bearing on your efficiency at doing the things you wanted, or they are so situational that they never come up in a game. On top of all that your "fighter" SUCKS at fighting. All you really wanted to do is play Garak from DS9, but instead you spend 5-6 hours, every other week, feeling worthless and totally uncool. Garak is the opposite of this character. How could you have gone so wrong?
So you show up on Paizo.com, and you start a thread in the advice forum. "Help me build Garak!"
In the thread, "we are 5th level with a 15 pt buy. I need to be AWESOME :) at fighting, sneaking, social stuff, AND I really hate failing will saves, having no hit points, getting hit all the time, going last in every combat, and being flat footed because I can see anything. Make me moar awesome at all things! :D"
Please help!
1st reply on thread
"Why don't you just ask to stack the deck at poker!?! Min-max munchkin power gamer!!!!!111eleveneleven."
2nd reply on thread
"I know that Garak didn't have magical powers, but perhaps you should consider a sorcerer. They are really neat, very powerful, and have the general flavor you seem to be looking to capture."
-----later that week----
You find yourself greedily scouring the inter webs looking for more and more info on sorcerers and how to make them. You arrive proudly at the appointed time of your game ready to show off your new character. No longer will you be the target of disappointed sighs, condescending help, or the clerics healing spells! Everything goes great until 20 minutes in and you drop your awesome shtick on the board and rock the brains of everyone at the table. In your moment of expected glory you look into the eyes of your friends and see instead disgust, confusion, and pity.
"What?!?" You demand!
"God Randy, why do you have to be such a freeking power gamer munchkin?"
-------------
From that day forward the mere mention of the word munchkin makes your skin crawl and you automatically consider anyone who brandishes that foul term as a mortal enemy.
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Anyway, people shouldn't call each other that.
Given the complexity of the rules for every version of D&D, including Pathfinder, it is not unreasonable to say that the systems are designed for people with above average intelligence. The "problem" is that it is played by people who aren't. Obviously this isn't a real problem, it's just a matter of perception. When a person of above average intelligence makes full use of something geared towards him/her a person of lesser intelligence will generally see it as unfair because they can't grasp the mechanics at the same level.
Cries of "OVERPOWERED!!!11!1!!11!" simply indicate that not everyone at the table is playing at the same level. That isn’t a mechanics problem, it's a player problem.
It does go both ways.
Lots of threads on this forum consist of someone presenting reasonable argument as to why a class is problematic than three or four people showing up and shouting "NUH UH POOPYHEAD ITS FINE PATHFIDNER IS THE BEST GAME EVER (sic)" over and over until the thread gets locked.
True, that's a fair point.
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<stuff>
Your friends suck.
<stuff>Your friends suck.
That is likely true, but they are the one's I have.
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How do you feel about how crazy overpowered everything has become? ;P
Our group unanimously quit Pathfinder around level 8 as the power creep just got out of hand. We had a lot of fun up to around levels 6 and 7 when it just became overly complicated to run and cartoonish in what was happening at the table.
I still enjoy Pathfinder as a player. But when I sit behind the screen I'd rather run something else.
It's not any one class that is overpowered, but rather the entire game is overpowered. The damage output seems too high in relation to armor and hit points making for combat that is too quick and lacking drama.
Again, its a very fun to play but just not my preferred game.
-MD
How do you feel about how crazy overpowered everything has become? ;POur group unanimously quit Pathfinder around level 8 as the power creep just got out of hand. We had a lot of fun up to around levels 6 and 7 when it just became overly complicated to run and cartoonish in what was happening at the table.
I wished more people realized that this was an option. The game is very different at different levels. The creatures you face aren't just recolors with bigger numbers, they use fundamentally different mechanics against the party. This sets the tone for fundamentally different stories. For example, your average chase scene becomes impossible with teleport as an option. LoTR is trivialized by a combination of mind-blank, invisibility, a hobit friend to hold the ring, endure elements, and greater teleport. All three books of epic story could take place in in less than a minute, shorter if you don't want to be as careful.
Really. It's OK to stop at lower levels if that is where your good stories are as a GM. IMO a great story > getting levels when it comes to having a good time.
Likewise though. It's OK to skip lower levels if that is where your good stories are as a GM. One of my best campaigns had the party start at level 20 and ended at 38. My other good campaign started at 1 and ended at 20. I've learned that it is important to use the levels appropriate for the story, not to use the story appropriate for the levels.