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So I was presented with this statement earlier, in reference to reasons to choose the Fighter.
Cumulative combat bonuses that eventually surpass even the barbarian.
At first blush, this seems flatly untrue. After all, +8 Str = +4 hit/damage, and Weapon Training at 17th level = +4 hit/damage (we'll be assuming 20th level here, because the statement is that the Fighter eventually surpasses the Barbarian).
Then you look at it a bit deeper.
Technically speaking, isn't +8 Str actually BETTER? Because it's really +4 hit, +6 damage. But, we're being fair, we'll assume the Fighter has Weapon Specialization, which puts it back on even ground.
So, I think, at best the Fighter surpasses him at some levels (9 and 10 before Greater Rage kicks in, and 17-19th before Mighty Rage kicks in) but I'd call that less "eventually surpass" and more "occasionally overtakes before becoming equal (but not really) again". But, we'll look a bit deeper.
That's before getting into the Con bonus, DR, and Rage Power goodness that comes with Rage as well. Which is what you compare to the original subject (Feats) and Armor Training. Oh and Bravery. Though I think everyone can flat out agree +2/+4 to Will saves in general is better than +6 vs Fear. I consider all of these "combat bonuses" too myself.
But, let's break it down a bit, what are we assuming?
General: 20th level, same exact stats, no archetypes.
Gear: Each character has +5 armor, a +10 weapon, and a bit extra spent on class specific items (Gloves of Dueling for Fighter). Let's be nice and say the Barbarian's Mithral Breastplate counts as that, for 9000 gold. Actually, let's toss in a Headband of Havoc too, adding +1 to any of the Rage Powers we have here. So, 15k vs 13k spent. At 20th level 2000 gold is less than pocket change, so we won't fault that difference. Other than that, everything else gear-wise is assumed identical (Maxed out Big Six, Inherent Bonuses, the whole shebang). Damage numbers will be calculated above and beyond the +5 Enhancement bonus each weapon will have, base stats, BaB, and so forth (since these factors are identical).
Class Abilities: The Fighter will spend 4 Feats (Weapon Focus/Greater and Weapon Specialization/Greater). So it's only fair that the Barbarian gets 4 as well: Superstition, Witch Hunter, Lesser Beast Totem, and Beast Totem. Other than that, we're assuming both have Power Attack, the Barbarian has NOT taken Weapon Focus as a Feat, and otherwise all Feats are the same (where chosen) so as not to skew the numbers.
I don't see anything wrong with applying Witch Hunter as a flat bonus to damage, because I don't think anyone will disagree that the vast majority of the Bestiary at this point is comprised of creature with AT LEAST 1 SLA.
So, let's see what we end up with, in pure numbers.
Offense: Will have +8 to-hit (+4 Weapon Training, +2 Weapon Focus/Greater, +2 Gloves of Dueling), and +10 to damage (+4 Weapon Training, +2 Gloves of Dueling, +4 Weapon Specialization/Greater).
Armor Class: +14 AC (+5 Full Plate), moving at full movement speed (30 feet normal). Maximum Dexterity bonus is +5. ACP is -2 (Armor Training reduced -6 by 4).
Saves: +6 to saves vs Fear. Should the Fighter so choose, he may have a Courageous weapon as well, bumping this to +11 to saves vs Fear.
Miscellaneous: Crit multiplier increased by 1.
Offense: Will have +7 to-hit (+4 Str from Mighty Rage, +2 from Furious, +3 Str from Courageous), and +19 to damage (+6 from Str due to Mighty Rage, +2 from Furious, +2 damage from Courageous adding +3 to Str, and +9 from Witch Hunter).
Armor Class: +15 AC (+5 Mithral Breastplate, +6 Beast Totem, -2 Rage. Moves at 40 ft. speed. Max Dexterity bonus is +6. ACP of -1 (Mithral reduced -4 by 3.).
Saves: Adds a +9 bonus to Fort/Ref/Will vs Spells, Spell-Likes, and Supernatural abilities (Superstition with Courageous). Adds +7 to Will vs non Spell/SLA/Su (Raging Will bonus with Courageous). Adds +7 to Fort vs non Spell/SLA/Su. Adds +7 to saves vs Fear while Raging. +5 to saves vs Fear while not Raging (both from Courageous weapon).
Miscellaneous: May add +1 to either AC, Saves, or damage upon activating Rage. DR 5/-, +1 HP per hit die, +5 HP per hit die while raging.
So, the final results:
Offense:
Fighter: +1 to-hit over Barbarian.
Barbarian: +9 damage over Fighter.
Note: The general rule the game is balanced by is that each -1 to-hit is balanced by +2 to damage.
Armor Class:
Fighter: No advantages.
Barbarian: +1 AC, faster movement speed, 1 lower ACP.
Saves:
Fighter: +4 to +6 saves vs Fear.
Barbarian: +9 bonus to Fort/Ref/Will vs Spells, Spell-Likes, and Supernatural abilities (Superstition with Courageous). +7 to Will vs non Spell/SLA/Su (Raging Will bonus with Courageous).+7 to Fort vs non Spell/SLA/Su.
Miscellaneous:
Fighter: Crits hit harder, and more confirm often.
Barbarian: +1 to a variable statistic. DR 5/-, +1 HP per hit die, +5 HP per hit die while raging.
It seems to me that the Barbarian edges ahead by the end, even in the pure damage department, from a numbers perspective, contrary to the initial statement.
When factoring in other things, the comparison becomes more unfavorable.
Please, tell me if I did something wrong, or you believe I've skewed the results in some manner. I tried to make this as fair as possible, but I admit to not being perfect, nor perfectly unbiased, I could have made a mistake.
Armor training for the fighter. Also, I'm sure you're not accounting for several additional feats for the fighter.
You include courageous weapons and reckless abandon? (Oh look furious I forgot about that)
Invulnerable rager dragon totem come-and-get me Barbarian in mithral full plate.
Mighty rage is a +8, with courageous it's plus 12. Which makes for +6 to hit and +9 damage. Unless the fighter is also grabbing weapon focus he won't end up ahead. (When furious the fighter still won't be ahead)
Pretty sure the fighter doesn't keep up.
Armor training for the fighter. Also, I'm sure you're not accounting for several additional feats for the fighter.
Armor Training included. Additional Feats hard to account for. Should've put that under Misc.
Edit: No I shouldn't actually. For every Feat the Fighter gets the Barbarian gets another Rage Power. Net wash.
Forgot to mention the ACP part of Armor Training though. Editing.
Also corrected Fighter's max Dex. Should have been +5, not +6.
Greater Weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, increased critical multiplier, auto confirm crits (huge boost to average dpr on 3rd and 4th iteratives.)
You could at least do me the courtesy of reading the post before telling me I "missed" something. All of those things are in there.
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Fighters get DR 5/- as well. And they make better switch-hitters... That's about it. (Although an Urban Barbarian with an adaptable longbow comes pretty close).
When it comes AC, remember Ghost Rager adds you Superstition bonus to touch AC, which is generally far more valuable than flat-footed AC by mid/high levels.
Buy, hey, Fighters can do it all daylong! Barbarians only have those bonuses for... Uh... At least 42 rounds... So probably twice as much as they will ever need...
Well... The Fighter's bonuses are still in place even out-of-combat! Oh, right...
Fighters get DR 5/- as well. And they make better switch-hitters... That's about it. (Although an Urban Barbarian with an adaptable longbow comes pretty close).
When it comes AC, remember Ghost Rager adds you Superstition bonus to touch AC, which is generally far more valuable than flat-footed AC by mid/high levels.
Buy, hey, Fighters can do it all daylong! Barbarians only have those bonuses for... Uh... At least 42 rounds... So probably twice as much as they will ever need...
Well... The Fighter's bonuses are still in place even out-of-combat! Oh, right...
Wait. So Ghost rager also increases normal AC too? Or does it just make touch attacks harder. I don't understand how it wouldn't increase normal AC though. Like how are you harder to touch but easier to hit?
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Thank you for taking the time to math this out Rynjin. I'm sure it will be summarily dismissed here by people who have an irrational hatred of facts and math, but they might skip that step and just plain not read it.., I'm to late aren't I?
Edit @ Marroar Gellantara: I believe what Lemmy means is that the bonus to touch AC would not apply in the event you were flat-footed and then notes that this higher touch AC is more valuable then flat-footed AC, even if there is a circumstance (ie. being flat-footed) where it is not.
The real kick in the teeth here is that's not even factoring in the Human FCB which is going to make those saves (and AC with Ghost Rager) a one sided slaughter in Barbarians favor.
Edit @ Marroar Gellantara: I believe what Lemmy means is that the bonus to touch AC would not apply in the event you were flat-footed and then notes that this higher AC is more valuable then flat-footed AC, even if there is a circumstance (ie. being flat-footed) where it is not.
What I don't understand is why a naked barbar is harder to hit with touch spells than with an axe wielded by the same wizard.
Edit @ Marroar Gellantara: I believe what Lemmy means is that the bonus to touch AC would not apply in the event you were flat-footed and then notes that this higher AC is more valuable then flat-footed AC, even if there is a circumstance (ie. being flat-footed) where it is not.What I don't understand is why a naked barbar is harder to hit with touch spells than with an axe wielded by the same wizard.
Mystical mumbo-jumbo. Since ghosts aren't "physical" they can only protect you from things like ranged touch attacks (which is code for magic rays).
Mystical mumbo-jumbo.Edit @ Marroar Gellantara: I believe what Lemmy means is that the bonus to touch AC would not apply in the event you were flat-footed and then notes that this higher AC is more valuable then flat-footed AC, even if there is a circumstance (ie. being flat-footed) where it is not.What I don't understand is why a naked barbar is harder to hit with touch spells than with an axe wielded by the same wizard.
This is why I have trouble playing barbars.
I'll just be over here with my DSP Aegis, soulknife and metaforge.
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Edit @ Marroar Gellantara: I believe what Lemmy means is that the bonus to touch AC would not apply in the event you were flat-footed and then notes that this higher AC is more valuable then flat-footed AC, even if there is a circumstance (ie. being flat-footed) where it is not.What I don't understand is why a naked barbar is harder to hit with touch spells than with an axe wielded by the same wizard.Because the nakedness gives them a circumstantial bonus to ac due to the wizard being very distracted.
But on the real though, these numbers don't look all that great. What about archetypes like lore warden or something?
Do you really want to let the Barbarian start picking up Archetypes as well? That seems like it will end badly for the Fighter.
Edit @ Marroar Gellantara: I believe what Lemmy means is that the bonus to touch AC would not apply in the event you were flat-footed and then notes that this higher AC is more valuable then flat-footed AC, even if there is a circumstance (ie. being flat-footed) where it is not.What I don't understand is why a naked barbar is harder to hit with touch spells than with an axe wielded by the same wizard.Because the nakedness gives them a circumstantial bonus to ac due to the wizard being very distracted.
But on the real though, these numbers don't look all that great. What about archetypes like lore warden or something?
The problem with archetypes is that they're basically different classes in a way. Comparing archetypes very quickly goes from "Let's compare two classes" to "Let's compare two classes, then all of the archetypes to those two classes, and all those archetypes to EACH OTHER".
But as a quick comparison, Lore Warden vs Barbarian, Barbarian now wins AC by a ton (Warden is in Light armor), and gets an extra +2 hit/damage, meaning the damage gap is only 7 in the Barbarian's favor now at least. Assuming the Warden can make a Knowledge check, anyway.
But if we're comparing archetypes, then of course I would have to whip out the Invulnerable Rager, and I think DR 10/- on top of the highest HP in the game, and a superior AC will push the Barbarian well over the top once again, that -3 to-hit he has very easily made up by the fact that he will be up and swinging LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG after the Fighter is dead in the ground.
The Warden, of course, DOES have a far superior CMB/CMD, however, getting its +8 on top of everything else.
Though then again, with Strength Surge and Tireless Rage, you can be getting a free +20 (+24 with the Headband!) on any Combat Maneuver you care to attempt. So maybe not.
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I did some pretty extensive DPR math Here.
The barbarian is only behind at 20 due to the massive effect crit multiplier and auto-confirm has on DPR.
I recommend downloading this and looking at it in excel.
I would like to note that my barbarian build has extra space for rage powers and has a lot more flex than my fighter build.
In short, yep fighters > barbarians in DPR at 20, but because of their capstone.
Before 20 barbs are looking pretty nice, and their defenses are much better than fighters generally.
Please ignore all of the Ki Meister stuff that is for a project I am working on.
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If the Barb is looking at Courageous and Furious, the Fighter at least should have gloves of dueling.
Not that it's going to matter much.
The net effect is that they're going to be pretty close on offense...except the barb gets his bonuses with all melee weapons, and the fighter gets a better bonus with a secondary weapon group missile weapon.
The Barb will destroy the fighter on saves. There is no comparison. The fighter has no recourse to equal this.
The barb has faster movement. This is increasingly important at higher levels.
The barb has more hit points when needed, AND a DR that starts early and applies at all levels, and can be stacked on. THe fighter can buy adamantine armor, or wait until level 20.
The barb has the option of Pounce and Come and Get ME, the two strongest melee options in the entire game.
The Fighter does not.
The barb has scaling bonuses to DR, Nat AC, and dodge that he can choose to take.
The Fighter does not.
The barb can get energy resistance, cut through spells, add his level to his strength check, and do this all multiple times a day.
The fighter...can cut thorugh 1 spell a day as an option? Inefficiently? Add +2 to a combat maneuver check?
There's just no comparison. The rage powers (and hey, extra rage power is a FEAT) just blow away the options and choices the fighter has available to him. Until you redo feats so they refer to fighter class abilities and scale them appropriately, the Fighter CANNOT compare.
==Aelryinth
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If the Barb is looking at Courageous and Furious, the Fighter at least should have gloves of dueling.
==Aelryinth
As every MTG player knows:
Reading is Tech.
Rynjin even gives the Fighter a Courageous Weapon for the +to fear saves.
Ah, was replying to marroar. Do note that a 'tremendous boost to 3rd and 4th iteratives' is dependent on getting a full attack.
The barbarian can FORCE the full attack, and get tons of AoO by letting the enemy attack him. More attacks wins any DPR contest, especially ones at Full BAB.
The optimal armor at that level for the fighter is actually Mithral Celestial Plate, which has a default of 7 Dex limit, 11 for the fighter. Of course, the fighter doesn't automatically get a 32 dex to take advantage of it, and if he can get a 24 (starting 13, +6, +5 inherent), then the barbarian could, too.
Look in Book 4 of the Mummy Mask. That crocodile guy on the cover? 11th level fighter. 14 Dex. Armor has +4 dex limit. Guess what use he's getting of his Armor training +3?
Hey, that's right! NONE.
Bah.
==Aelryinth
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This is interesting. I did a Fighter vs. Dawnflower Dervish comparison once, though I didn't include gear (I never include gear when discussing the strengths and weaknesses of a class). In fact, I didn't presume gear, attributes or anything beyond the basic bare bones BAB, class features and 'essential' feats.
In this case both characters are human (no applicable FCB's):
For Fighter: Full BAB, Weapon Training, Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization & Greater Weapon Specialization taken at earliest levels possible.
For Dawnflower Dervish: 3/4 BAB, Battle Dance (Inspire Courage), Arcane Strike and Weapon Focus taken at earliest levels possible.
By level, Fighter - Dervish, with Attack/Damage shown:
1st +2/+0 . +2/+3
2nd +3/+0 . +3/+3
3rd +4/+0 . +5/+3
4th +5/+2 . +6/+3
5th +7/+3 . +8/+6
6th +8/+3 . +9/+6
7th +9/+4 . +10/+6
8th +11/+4 . +11/+6
9th +13/+5 . +11/+6
10th +14/+5 . +12/+7
11th +15/+5 . +15/+9
12th +16/+7 . +16/+9
13th +17/+8 . +16/+9
14th +18/+8 . +17/+9
15th +19/+8 . +18/+10
16th +20/+8 . +19/+10
17th +22/+9 . +21/+12
18th +23/+9 . +22/+12
19th +24/+9 . +23/+12
20th +25/+9 . +24/+13
This does not take into account spells at the Dawnflower Dervish's disposal, such as Cat's Grace, Allegro or Dance of a Hundred Cuts. It also doesn't take into account the faster access to iterative attacks the Fighter will get. Generally if the Fighter is TH, AC will be the same, mobility will be the same, Fighter will have slightly better hit points and will catch up damage-wise using Power Attack, though the Dervish will stay ahead doing the same. The Dervish will generally have better saves and far more skills.
One question OP: Have you taken into consideration that the bonuses the Barbarian gets from rage aren't "always on" while whichever bonuses the Fighter gets usually are?
One question: Have you taken into consideration that the bonuses the Barbarian gets from rage aren't "always on" while whichever bonuses the Fighter gets usually are?
I can honestly say that if you use more then 35 rounds of rounds. Either you have done something wrong, or your GM has. So once you have enough rounds of rage (lets say 20 rounds, even though that's probably to high), you can basically Rage "all day" as needed. And lets not mention Element-Kin Archetype. Might make the "all-dayers" even sadder.
It has been implyed more than once that this interpratation of the courageous enchantment is way more generous that what the dev intended and clearly not in line with what a +1 enchantment should be able to provide.
I think the math should be run with the more conservative ruling on it.
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It has been implyed more than once that this interpratation of the courageous enchantment is way more generous that what the dev intended and clearly not in line with what a +1 enchantment should be able to provide.
I think the math should be run with the more conservative ruling on it.
There is only one ruling on it. And only one interpretation. Anything else should be disregarded for being nonsense, since any other interpretation does not conform to the English language. Also the bonus is perfectly in line with a +1 bonus, since it requires a *more* expensive weapon to actually do anything. It's called scaling.
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There is only one ruling on it. And only one interpretation. Anything else should be disregarded for being nonsense. Also the bonus is perfectly in line with a +1 bonus, since it requires a *more* expensive weapon to actually do anything. It's called scaling.It has been implyed more than once that this interpratation of the courageous enchantment is way more generous that what the dev intended and clearly not in line with what a +1 enchantment should be able to provide.
I think the math should be run with the more conservative ruling on it.
I'd like to think better of the Paizo devs. I won't assume they made an ability that increases moral bonuses and didn't intend for it to increase moral bonuses.
I'd like to think better of the Paizo devs. I won't assume they made an ability that increases moral bonuses and didn't intend for it to increase moral bonuses.There is only one ruling on it. And only one interpretation. Anything else should be disregarded for being nonsense. Also the bonus is perfectly in line with a +1 bonus, since it requires a *more* expensive weapon to actually do anything. It's called scaling.It has been implyed more than once that this interpratation of the courageous enchantment is way more generous that what the dev intended and clearly not in line with what a +1 enchantment should be able to provide.
I think the math should be run with the more conservative ruling on it.
So you agree with me then? Cause they totally made an ability that increase morale bonuses. It's called the Courageous Weapon Property and that's literally what it does:
"In addition, any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon's enhancement bonus (minimum 1)."
This leads to one question that must be answered:
1. Is the Barbarian rage a morale bonus to STR, CON and Will saves?
A. Yes.
So you agree with me then?
Yes. We should not assume every response is disagreement.
I can honestly say that if you use more then 35 rounds of rounds. Either you have done something wrong, or your GM has.
That's what, 3.5 minutes of rage?
In my opinion, if you don't need your full 35 rounds of rage (7 5-round combats) in a day, either you or the GM are doing something wrong.
Let's try to keep from further insulting differing play-styles.
But for my question: Was it factored in for that every round the Barbarian isn't raging, he's not getting the benefit of +8 Str and Con, +4 to Will, but also doesn't suffer the -2 AC penalty?
But for my question: Was it factored in for that every round the Barbarian isn't raging, he's not getting the benefit of +8 Str and Con, +4 to Will, but also doesn't suffer the -2 AC penalty?
As far as anyone is concerned, after the barbar is out of rage, the casters are out of spells and everyone needs to go home.
Unless your GM is focused on turn speed (like me). 7-5 round combats will span across a months worth of play.
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Look, if your combats take more then 4 rounds, and you have more then 8 encounters a day. That's either your fault (good tactics can easily mop up most encounters in 3-4 rounds, heck some only take 2), or your GMs fault for giving way more encounters then appropriate. It's not insulting another playstyle, unless you think good tactics *don't* reduce the rounds to 3-4. Or that more then 8 encounters is normal.
(And to answer your question modus0 yes the -2 to AC was factored)
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Also... If you have 8 combats every day, chances are some of them will be easy enough that you don't even need Rage.
Congratulations! Fighters are better at fighting mooks that could easily be wiped out by a well-built Warrior.
Barbarians win when the encounter is an actual threat.
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So if a barbarian has a 14 con at lvl 1 and gets a +6 enhancement to con in addition to a +4 inherent to con, then at level 20 he will have 49 rounds of rage. (7[con mod] + 4 [base] + {2*19=38}[levels])=49
Now if your play style calls for 7 round combats he can fit in 7 of those.
This would mean that for every day he uses all of his rounds of rage he should, be facing quite a slew of opponents.
I do not believe that 7 encounters a day is what the game is designed for as if you did regularly do this then characters would level very fast even with trivial encounters.
At 4 on CR encounters at level one a day with 4 party members each party member is gaining 400 exp per day.
At 7 encounters at level one a day with 4 party members to have the same exp reward would require all the encounters to be one CR 1 and 6 CR 1/2 all encountered separately and in non-disadvantaged terrain.
If you wanted 7 encounters and did not care how fast characters leveled you would could go 7 CR 1 encounters a day and end up granting 700 exp per party member.
In short following this it would take a total number of days equal to 244.6595982 (Slow 7 encounters a day), 162.1354167 (Medium 7 encounters a day), 107.8645833 (Fast 7 encounters a day) vs 428.1542969 (Slow 4 encounters a day), 283.7369792 (Medium 4 encounters a day), 188.7630208 (Fast 4 encounters a day). All of this never using anything above CR.
I believe it would result in even more of an increase due to CR+1 to CR+3 encounters.
Basically I do not believe that more than 7 encounters a day each with 7 rounds is intended.
Now a barbarian can run him/her self out of rage via rage cycling easily, however usually by the time that is online, casters are one shotting some or all of the fight.
Interesting.
So, if I'm understanding this right, a properly built high level barbarian does comparable damage to a smiting paladin or challenging cavalier (which are x/day abilities), and the barbarian does that damage at virtually all times?
Interesting.
So, if I'm understanding this right, a properly built high level barbarian does comparable damage to a smiting paladin or challenging cavalier (which are x/day abilities), and the barbarian does that damage at virtually all times?
I don't think it holds up to a paladin when smiting.
If charisma is a primary you can start it at 16 just like strength
+5 level increases, +6 headband, +5 tome= 32 aka +11 modifier to attack
For damage smite alone also gives +20.
If the paladin gets a lesser quicken rod and a glove of storing he gets to add spells to boost his DPR even more.
What if the fighter is using archery?
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A rough comparision of numbers, using basic builds: Starting strength 17, +5 for level. I won't bother with most stat gear or buffs, both classes gain the same benefits.
Fighter
20 BAB
22 Str (+6/+9)
+5 keen, thundering, speed nodachi (1d10/15-20/x3)
Weapon Training IV (+4/+4)
Greater Weapon Specialization (-/+4)
Greater Weapon Focus (+2/-)
Auto confirm crits
+1 Critical Modifier
Gloves of Dueling (+2/+2)
20 APL AC = 36
Nodachi +39/+34/+29/+24 (1d10+24/15-20/x3) +2d8 sonic on crit
.95(29.5)+.3(2)(29.5+4.5) = 48.425 * 3 = 96.85
.7(29.5)+.3(2)(29.5+4.5) = 41.05
.45(29.5)+.3(2)(29.5+4.5) = 33.675
DPR = 220
Barbarian
20 BAB
33 Str (raging)(+11/+16) - courageous counted
+7 furious, courageous, speed nodachi (1d10/18-20/x2) - furious counted
Weapon Focus (+1/-)
+7 Witch Hunter
20 APL AC = 36
Nodachi +36/+31/+26/+31 (1d10+26/18-20/x2)
.95(35.5)+.15(.95)(31.5) = 38.78375*2 = 77.5675
.8(35.5)+.15(.8)(31.5) = 32.66
.55(35.5)+.15(.55)(31.5) = 22.45375
.3(35.5)+.15(.3)(31.5) = 12.2475
DPR = 144.92875
The Barbarian does, in fact, have a larger static bonus to damage. Where he looses is on the criticals. Auto confirm and an increased multiplier are huge bonuses in the fighters favor. The DPR contribution from criticals remains flat across all the fighters iteratives, unlike the barbarian's diminishing returns.
The barbarian has better saves. With supestitious he most likely has better saves than the paladin and monk.
The bararian will end with a +1 to AC, both have DR 5/-
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Armor Training included. Additional Feats hard to account for. Should've put that under Misc.
It seems that you are quite right. I have always assumed that Armor Training increased the armor bonus as well. Maybe it should!
It seems to me that the Barbarian edges ahead by the end, even in the pure damage department, from a numbers perspective, contrary to the initial statement.I think it ca be safely say that at level 20 the fighter full attack deals more damage, because autocrit with increased multiplier is a HUGE bonus.
At level 11-19 the barbarian is wins though.
That would be important if the Fighter actually had a decent will save.
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why on earth you compare damage only?
fighter has many things going his way:
1) he can archer much better
2) lore warden are master at maneuvers without the end level o tireless rage
3)a ighter can learn 3-4 maneuvers, my warden was going vital strike + felling smash + trip that provoke 2 AOO (1 from all) + grapple that lead to free greater grapple.
no barbarrian can ever hit and trip and grapple and pin and makeoe provoke from all in 1 round.also, remember, maneuvers with greater maneuvers make opponent provoke AOO - so add the daamge all are doing...
Starting midway through the game, combat maneuvers become bad, and they certainly aren't worth a lot of investment at levels 15 and up.
While the Fighter makes a much better archer than your run-of-the-mill Barbarian, Fighters are generally meant to fill the role of a frontliner, protecting the party's spellcasters that are supposed to provide damage and support from a range/from behind. While Fighter archers are not bad per se, they fill a role that could be filled better by a Wizard or Sorcerer.|
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why on earth you compare damage only?
fighter has many things going his way:
1) he can archer much better
2) lore warden are master at maneuvers without the end level o tireless rage
3)a ighter can learn 3-4 maneuvers, my warden was going vital strike + felling smash + trip that provoke 2 AOO (1 from all) + grapple that lead to free greater grapple.
no barbarrian can ever hit and trip and grapple and pin and makeoe provoke from all in 1 round.also, remember, maneuvers with greater maneuvers make opponent provoke AOO - so add the daamge all are doing...
I agree, and I usually build as a Lore Warden.
Damage is used as the default comparison because it is non-subjective. Pure numbers are very difficulty to argue against.
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What if the fighter is using archery?
Archery isn't better than two handing because of damage. It is better because it is not so limited by distance. With archery you almost always get a full round attack. If that is your point then maybe the barbarian archer would need an adapative bow, but he would still be competitive I think. In addition he still has better defenses than the fighter.
why on earth you compare damage only?
fighter has many things going his way:
1) he can archer much better
2) lore warden are master at maneuvers without the end level o tireless rage
3)a ighter can learn 3-4 maneuvers, my warden was going vital strike + felling smash + trip that provoke 2 AOO (1 from all) + grapple that lead to free greater grapple.
no barbarrian can ever hit and trip and grapple and pin and makeoe provoke from all in 1 round.also, remember, maneuvers with greater maneuvers make opponent provoke AOO - so add the daamge all are doing...
Barbarians will still outdamage a lore warden. Once pounce and then another full round attack kills most anything in its CR range. Trip is limited by size. The damage from a barbarian does not care how big you are.
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Barbarians are far better maneuver masters then fighters. They have the option of taking Strength Surge just like a fighter does Maneuver feats. +20 to a Combat Manuver check for the price of an immediate action dwarfs anything a fighter can dream of, and actually keeps maneuvers viable.
And note that while crits help a fighter at the very, very end game, that's only with his chosen weapon. As soon as he changes weapons, he's lost the fight again.
BUT...nobody complains about the fighter not being able to do damage. Truly. Comparing damage is pointless...nobody is comparing damage.
It's EVERYTHING ELSE.
===Aelryinth
nobody complains about the fighter not being able to do damage. Truly. Comparing damage is pointless...nobody is comparing damage.It's EVERYTHING ELSE.
===Aelryinth
This is exactly the issue, the Fighter is worse as a front-line class not because they can't do damage, but because their defenses and other non-damage features are subpar at best, and hilariously bad at worst.
...an immediate action dwarfs anything a fighter can dream of...
Heh.
Is that a proper English jibe? :) It ain't 'dwarves'.
==Aelryinth