simulacrum + magic jar + polymorph any object

[Melvin the Mediocre]

Let's say a wizard creates a simulacrum of a solar. Then they polymorph any object to simulate alter self making the solar look like themselves. Now the wizard uses magic jar to posses the solar, puts o. A headband of +6 wis/int, stuffs their real body in a portable hole, and goes adventuring.

Assuming the wizard started with int 22, wis 14, and cha 10, what do you think the wizards stats are now. Include, in your best ruling, regeneration, resisrances, powers, etc.

[Val'bryn2]

An interesting problem, because the No Dual Nature part where an Outsider IS their soul, can they actually be Magic Jarred? They can't be raised because the soul and body is one, so????

[Shimesen]

STOP MAKING CASTERS BETTER THAN THEY ALREADY ARE!!!!

[Val'bryn2]

Well that's just maddeningly unhelpful.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

You would be possessing a simulacrum, not an outsider.

[Val'bryn2]

But since it's made from the Solar, it's still the illusion of an Outsider, it has to have a type, which would be outsider, so it gets the "appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, AND SPECIAL ABILITIES for a creature of that level or HD". Therefore, he has the Outsider type.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

Actually, I think it is an illusion. That might keep it from being magic jarred itself though.

[Thornborn]

I don't think you can get a piece of a Solar from which to grow a Simulacrum, in the first place. I think they're like elementals, like all the plane-stuff-made direct servants of the planes.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

You don't need a piece anymore, that was 3.x rules. Wierd I know.

[Lincoln Hills]

I'll never understand why they eliminated that material component, since it was helpful in preventing... well, this, among other things.

As far as I know, magic jar doesn't eliminate your 'real' body's need to breathe. Not to worry, though. If you have all the other spells you've already mentioned, you probably have temporal stasis as well. That ought to do it.

[Balkar]

PRD wrote:

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow.

I think a Simulacrum is part illusion and part golem-ish. So the real question is, can Magic Jar affect non-living things like golems or corpses? I think not since when the possessed host is slain (and becomes a corpse) you are expulsed from the possessed body.

So I think you can't Magic Jar a Simulacrum.

[Balkar]

Also good luck with the

PRD wrote:

A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

Assuming the GM actually allows the OPs situation.

[DominusMegadeus]

Balkar wrote:

Also good luck with the

PRD wrote:

A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

Assuming the GM actually allows the OPs situation.

Why would you ever take damage as a Wizard 20 Solar?

[Melvin the Mediocre]

Balkar wrote:

I think a Simulacrum is part illusion and part golem-ish. So the real question is, can Magic Jar affect non-living things like golems or corpses.

On the other hand, the target of majic jar is "one creature." If you rule that the simulacrum is not a creature, you are opening up a whole new can of worms. A corpse used to be ruled an object, I don't know if that rule has changed.

Balkar wrote:

PRD wrote:

A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

Now as for the expensive ritual for repair, you are getting into a debate of rules as intended. The spell does not say you can not cure it with cure spells. It could very well be that the only intended method of replacing lost hit points is through the ritual, or it could just be an option for a wizard to heal their pet.

Moreover, I have seen no reason to believe that fast healing or regeneration would not work. They maybe reduced due to the creation having half the hit dice of the original, but they should work.

Let's assume the simulacrum can be created and possessed. What do you think it's stats would be?

[Ramarren]

My take...staying entirely within the Land of RAW:

1 - "Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature." - so there is nothing to prevent duplicating a Solar (though the Solar migh get pretty irked)
2 - "Effect one duplicate creature" - So it can be affected by Magic Jar..I see nothing in Magic Jar that discusses type.

The creature will have "half of the real creature’s levels or HD and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."...a lot of fudge factor here, as there is no discussion of Stats. Personally, I'd say Stats are the same, but the GM would be entirely within RAW to reduce stats by 1/4 HD lost...still, probably pretty good.

But there is where it gets significantly less cool. From Magic Jar:
"You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body."
So you'd get the STR/DEX/CON/Hit Points (modified by the level loss, possibly) but not much else, really.

[VRMH]

• Magic Jar works by forcing souls into a crystal.
• Simulacra having souls would open a whole new can of worms.
• So it is practical to assume Simulacra do not have souls.
• And thus Simulacra are impervious to the Magic Jar spell.

[Odraude]

VRMH wrote:

• Magic Jar works by forcing souls into a crystal.
• Simulacra having souls would open a whole new can of worms.
• So it is practical to assume Simulacra do not have souls.
• And thus Simulacra are impervious to the Magic Jar spell.

Do simulacra dream of electric icy sheep?

[Lincoln Hills]

They have 50% of a dream.

[Odraude]

Ramarren wrote:

My take...staying entirely within the Land of RAW:

1 - "Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature." - so there is nothing to prevent duplicating a Solar (though the Solar migh get pretty irked)
2 - "Effect one duplicate creature" - So it can be affected by Magic Jar..I see nothing in Magic Jar that discusses type.

The creature will have "half of the real creature’s levels or HD and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."...a lot of fudge factor here, as there is no discussion of Stats. Personally, I'd say Stats are the same, but the GM would be entirely within RAW to reduce stats by 1/4 HD lost...still, probably pretty good.

But there is where it gets significantly less cool. From Magic Jar:
"You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body."
So you'd get the STR/DEX/CON/Hit Points (modified by the level loss, possibly) but not much else, really.

He's got the right of it. Assuming you can magic jar a simulacrum, you can't use the solar's abilities. So this would be a waste of time.

[Caedwyr]

Wouldn't you get the passive Su and Ex abilities? They count as always on, and as such would not need to be activated. To put it another way, can a troll turn-off their regeneration, or is it always on for them (unless they get burned by fire/acid, at which point it is suppressed for a time)?

[Odraude]

Maybe, but according to the simulacrum spell, I don't think regeneration would heal it. I think spending the 100 gp per hit point is the only way to heal one. Only example I can find of something similar is in Shattered Star

Spoiler:

Maligast is an undead simulacrum, but does not get healed by negative energy.

As a GM, I'd reckon that regeneration doesn't heal the simulacrum.

[Caedwyr]

Possibly. You'd still pick up the immunities, protective aura, senses (including true sight), flight, DR, resistances, and access to the feats (not all, but some). You might also get the Slaying Arrow Su ability, since the effect is automatic, which suggests that it is not an activated ability.

Either way, it'd be great if we had some insight as to what you get from a Simulacrum. A template or more explicit guidelines would go a long way to reducing the confusing and abuseability of this spell.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

The body retains its automatic abilities. So I would say you keep regeneration, but no slaying arrows.

If your left behind body breathed, people could tell it was not dead.

A simulacrum is not an undead, that is why it does not heal from negative energy. You are right though, it would be helpful to have more crunch on what a simulacrum is. And what a soul is for that matter.

On another note, I think these things up for fun. I don't pull them in game. I may dominate and frequently jar a troll though.

[Odraude]

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:

The body retains its automatic abilities. So I would say you keep regeneration, but no slaying arrows or flight.

If your left behind body breathed, people could tell it was not dead.

A simulacrum is not an undead, that is why it does not heal from negative energy. You are right though, it would be helpful to have more crunch on what a simulacrum is. And what a soul is for that matter.

On another note, I think these things up for fun. I don't pull them in game. I may dominate and frequently jar a troll though.

The undead was in regards to that particular simulacrum in question, since it was one of an undead creature. I think it was to let the GM know that Channel Negative Energy would do nothing to it. Which is why I have a feeling that no type of healing (including regeneration) would work on a simulacrum.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

I understand the simulacrum was a copy of an undead, but the simulacrum itself was not an undead. My take is that tells us that a simulacrum does not gain the creature type of the original, but does not help us any more towards deciding what the sim. actually is.

Of course we are all just making educated guesses here, so your take is just as likely as mine.

[Odraude]

Actually, it did have the undead creature type. Specifically Undead (augmented humanoid).

[Blakmane]

You can't use magic jar on anything without a soul (undead, constructs etc). Simulacrum doesn't really tell you if the creature has a soul or not, but I think you'd find most DMs would rule it doesn't.

Simulacrum is just a horribly described and worded spell in general.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

Odraude wrote:

Actually, it did have the undead creature type. Specifically Undead (augmented humanoid).

Well then, that changes things dramatically!

[Melvin the Mediocre]

Blakmane wrote:

You can't use magic jar on anything without a soul (undead, constructs etc).

You can't use it on mindless undead, but you can on intelligent undead per the spell description. Do you have any rules on constructs, or are you hypothesizing? I'd like to see the rule if you know where it is.