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It's just Torag. He's a grumpy sort. Iomedae actually highly respects her, and Erastil thinks they both should get a good man to help settle down with. :)
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My biggest beef with Sarenrae is that myself and everyone at my table went to school with a girl named Sara Ray. So if Sarenrae ever gets brought up I never hear the end of 'Paladins of Sara Ray' jokes.
At least that they are not Paladins of Saran Wrap. ;)
It should be noted that historical deities were seen in different ways over time. So, it is not surprising that worshippers of Saranrae in Kelesh, Absalom, and Varisia may have very different takes on the deity.
Sarenrae is a complex goddess... ALL of our deities are complex in some way or another, in fact (see Iomedae's flaw about not having a lot of patience for rabble rousers or what she deems as fools or trouble makers... she's actually NOT that mean to those who respect her and/or serve her needs well).
In Sarenrae's case, her complexity was made a little bit MORE complex than originally intended when some early work that some authors did on stuff with here before we had a better organized creative control over all of Golarion took her faith and religion in some directions that were never really intended for her. The result is that there's something of a schism in her faith in Qadira, and I've been planting seeds and hints for the past few years to try to reconcile these earlier mis-steps a few folks took in products that got into print to bring her back in line whlie simultaneously setting things up for a possible big event or Adventure Path even where the schism comes to a head.
It'll probably be a while before we get there though, so in the meantime, her religion and faith will remain somewhat complex.
Sarenrae herself is intended to be one of the nicer, friendlier, deities. She's certainly the most forgiving. But when she needs to act to defeat evil to protect good, she doesn't hesitate, nor does she draw things out. She works fast and strikes hard, hoping to get the job done ASAP and with as little collateral damage as possible.
How well her believers hold up to these ideals she sets out is a different matter, of course. Don't mistake the actions of her church as her actions. Free will includes the ability to misunderstand (either willfully or accidentally) religious teachings, after all.
I actually think Shelyn is the nicest deity in Pathfinder. :D
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I actually think Shelyn is the nicest deity in Pathfinder. :D
Desna's got the butterfly thing going for her. Everyone loves butterflies, right?
Desna's got the butterfly thing going for her. Everyone loves butterflies, right?I actually think Shelyn is the nicest deity in Pathfinder. :D
That's through. Plus both Shelyn and Desna are the biggest supporters of treating tieflings as people and helping them (Sarenrae is another big one in this as well).
Back on topic: I actually find it interesting that Sarenrae's church is facing a schism. Since James Jacobs has stated that he plans to do either a module or (I'm hoping for this one) an entire Adventure Path revolving around this, it leads to the question of what happens to the deity when a schism happens. Sarenrae abhors slavery and so do her true followers but if a schism happens, what does she do? Yes she can support her true believers but what about those believers who are following her beliefs but are just way more militant than she wants them to be, like the Cult of the Dawnflower? They're still believers, just not true believers and while they may still be good (sort of) she is faced with a problem.
Then there is the problem of what happens if this schism splits three ways: lawful good vs neutral good vs chaotic good! Everyone forgets that good, like evil, is in the eye of the beholder. It's not always clear cut. While in game terms that doesn't make much sense, but in real life it does, I'm afraid.
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yeah...going on the Book of the Damned, Sarenrae is really old, almost as old as Asmodeus, and was probably one of the first angels.If not older than him!!!
So, the Book of the Damned had it so Asmodeus and his brother were the oldest, but he's really the son of the Ihys and Sarenrae and he killed his dad in a horrible patricide incident? (please don't tell me you guys were listening to "The Doors" when concocting this Freudian nightmare...)
:P
;)
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Paladins of Asmodeus have been retconned out of the setting, at least as NPCs with actual levels of paladin.Correct. That wasn't a retcon, actually. That was us correcting an actual and legitimate error. In the same way if we spell the word "Wizard" as "Wziard," that doesn't mean that there are actually characters out there with levels in a new class called "Wziard."
Well, now we have Tyrant Antipaladins...who might be considered "Paladins of Asmodeus".
Well, now we have Tyrant Antipaladins...who might be considered "Paladins of Asmodeus".Paladins of Asmodeus have been retconned out of the setting, at least as NPCs with actual levels of paladin.Correct. That wasn't a retcon, actually. That was us correcting an actual and legitimate error. In the same way if we spell the word "Wizard" as "Wziard," that doesn't mean that there are actually characters out there with levels in a new class called "Wziard."
And then there is the nation of Holomog is Garund (south of Geb). Based on Distant Shores, where the city of Anuli is detailed, there is a trait that allows you to treat Asmodeus as a Lawful Neutral deity in regards to your divine spellcasting class. Since Paladins are divine spellcasters...
Though I have to admit I find it a bit more amusing that Asmodeus is depicted as a woman in that nation.
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yeah...going on the Book of the Damned, Sarenrae is really old, almost as old as Asmodeus, and was probably one of the first angels.If not older than him!!!So, the Book of the Damned had it so Asmodeus and his brother were the oldest, but he's really the son of the Ihys and Sarenrae and he killed his dad in a horrible patricide incident? (please don't tell me you guys were listening to "The Doors" when concocting this Freudian nightmare...)
:P
;)
Actually I think he was sort of her lieutnant, or something. Ihys never existed. It's jsut one more damned lie.
Sarenrae is always described as being almost infinitely kind and compassionate, with no negative qualities whatsoever. She's Lawful Good. Unlike, say, Asmodeus, she's quite active in the lives of mortals. And yet, the primary centers of her worship are all slave states, and she has never officially rebuked the Cult of the Dawnflower for the military invasion of Osirion, the oppression of the Osiriani people, or their persistent militaristic bloodlust.
It's as if the people writing the descriptions for books like Inner Sea Gods and the people writing adventures have completely different visions of the character. What gives?
She's not LG, she's NG.
And I don't see anything weird about her. She is merciful to those she feels are redeemable. But she has no mercy towards unrepentant evil.Her primary centers of worship... it'd be weird if the only centers of worship for her were happy-go-lucky places. Of course she's worshiped in slave states and other places of oppression.
Also, she can be active in the world. But if she gets involved too much, then it affects people's free will. And mortals need to have the freedom to make their own choices for good or for evil. If they only do things because gods make them, then it's not their choice. And they can't be held responsible.
Here's a thought about The Paradox of Sarenrae -- with a Rahadoum tie-in -- that I originally posted in the ask James Jacobs thread. James Jacobs answered, and doesn't seem to think much of it, but I still think it is worthy of consideration, so here it is, along with his answer . . . and then I add some more recent ideas afterwards:
I still think it's because Rahadoum is narrow-minded and frightened. They still seem to me to be more suited toward an antagonistic region built for PCs to adventure in but not live in, along the lines of the Worldwound or Razmiran or Irrisen or Geb.Wasn't the Dawnflower's Church half of the ruckess which nearly destroyed Rahadoum?Why does Rahadoum ban the religion of good deities whats so bad about Sarenrae's(a goddess of Redemption/the sun and Healing) or Shelyn's ( a goddess of love/art and Beauty) religion.Everyone who lives there can't feel this way or think Religion is wrong or evil or negative.My opinion? Because the rulers of Rahadoum are narrow-minded and frightened of faith of ANY type.Thread-, er, subthread- necromancy time!
Given how exceedingly difficult it has proven to get rid of religion on Earth (with almost the only examples of success being other religions), I would like to propose another potential explanation, based upon an institution that is known to be powerful and important in Rahadoum, and that has also been known to be very hard to get rid of on Earth:
The destruction wrought by the war between faiths may have been only part of the reason for banning religion in Rahadoum, although the one that the rulers like to advertise as being the only reason. Even with the faults of Sarenrae's church demonstrated in the Qadira-Taldor conflict and Osirion, it couldn't be anywhere near as bad for people in general as the cult of Norgorber, and was very likely also more benign than the cult of Nethys (these being the other two main parties in the sectarian conflict in proto-Rahadoum). But if the Dawnflower militants were truly faithful to the ideals of Good, they would likely have tried to eliminate slavery, which is practiced and important in Rahadoum in current times, but is likely not at all new. THAT would anger and scare those who depend upon slavery even more than the murderhobo activities of the other two cults. So the slaveholders in proto-Rahadoum decided that they COULDN'T enable the easiest way out of the sectarian conflict by siding with Sarenrae against the other two deities, and instead used the destructiveness of the conflict as an excuse to ban them all. Even so, this probably wouldn't have been a fight that they could have won straight up, so they probably first played the three sects off against each other to weaken them all (which would have conveniently caused more destruction, to strengthen their excuse for banning them), and then finally finished the job themselves.
This would have had major ripple effects through the rest of the Inner Sea Region, with this major setback for the church of Sarenrae causing idealists to lose power and in many cases lose their idealism, and allowing the go-along-to-get-along faction to take over, thus explaining the present-day widespread tolerance for slavery among her worshippers, and also handing power over to the more militaristic non-idealistic factions within her church.
I think this explanation conveniently soils two stones with one bird. Thoughts?
As I said shortly after his response, the two are not mutually exclusive.
In addition, it could be that somebody else is secretly supplying the non-idealistic Cult of the Dawnflower (that took over after the founding of Rahadoum) with divine power to make up for any shortfalls. Normally this would be extremely dangerous for the entity doing it . . . unless that entity was extremely powerful, extremely insidious, a master of nefarious planning . . . and had something hostage that Sarenrae can't afford to risk . . . . Asmodeus, the master of tyranny, slavery, and corruption . . . who was also instrumental in forging Rovagug's prison . . . and who could "accidentally" let it pop loose in the event that she retaliates against him. He might be doing this in secret, or he may be doing it to her face, twirling his moustache while forcing her to watch the corruption of her church from within, and taunting her with the knowledge that if she tries to do anything about it or even TELL anyone about it, she could lose EVERYTHING . . . whereas if she continues doing nothing, as he is currently succeeding in forcing her to do, eventually the corruption will take her, and she will be so thoroughly broken, corrupted, and reduced to being his lieutenant as to make Eiseth blush (with jealous rage, of course) . . . and who says that this isn't what he did to make Eiseth fall in the first place?
Yet Asmodeus may have overplayed his hand, for though he has the might of Hell behind him, Sarenrae has the power of a much larger-than-average fusion reactor at her command, if only she can put together the finesse needed to use its power to save Golarion and its inhabitants rather than destroy them or leave them to a slow slide into absolute and terminal slavery. And so ever so slowly, in total secrecy, in the few centuries or millenia she has left before the corruption is complete, she is forging a spell of truly astronomical proportions, that will cause Golarion and the people on it to vanish without a trace, not only to the point of view of people not on Golarion at the time, but also to both Rovagug and Asmodeus themselves. Undoubtedly Asmodeus will immediately afterwards realize that he has been tricked, but by then it will be too late, for then he could do anything to the lock on Rovagug's prison, and it will do nothing, for Rovagug himself will also be somewhere EXTREMELY far away. Unfortunately, it will be necessary to erase, scramble, or otherwise suppress records of what happened within several light cone radii of Golarion's former location for several centuries or millenia, in order to prevent both Asmodeus and Rovagug from finding it before the former inhabitants and their allies can develop the level of technology needed to fight them off . . . .
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James, is that more because you think that paladins of evil gods shouldn't happen in general, or is that an unwritten expansion of the "all divine spellcasters' alignment - not just clerics and druids - must be no more than one step away from their god's" rule?Paladins of Asmodeus have been retconned out of the setting, at least as NPCs with actual levels of paladin.Correct. That wasn't a retcon, actually. That was us correcting an actual and legitimate error. In the same way if we spell the word "Wizard" as "Wziard," that doesn't mean that there are actually characters out there with levels in a new class called "Wziard."It's because paladins have a hard alignment requirement. They MUST be lawful good.
You can't worship Asmodeus and remain lawful good.
1) Paladins need to be devout and faithful.
2) A devout and faithful worshiper of a deity follows the deity's rules
3) A worshiper who is devout and faithful to a LE deity is most likely LE himself... or MAYBE LN or NE, but those are slipping into heresy. None of these are LG, and thus you can't be a paladin who is a devout and faithful worshiper of Asmodeus.
4) If you stayed LG somehow while still worshiping Asmodeus, you would be worshiping Asmodeus in a way that is blatantly disregarding the teachings of Asmodeus, and this is a chaotic act, and thus the longer you worship the more your alignment actually slips toward chaos.. That isn't LG, and thus you can't be a paladin who worships Asmodeus in a chaotic way.Thus, there's no way to be a paladin AND be a worshiper of Asmodeus.
You can certainly be any other class and claim to be a paladin while still worshiping Asmodeus... but you would NOT be a palaidn.
It's an error. Has nothing to do with what I think or an unwritten expansion. It's the way the rules work.
...But a cleric with the trait in question can be an LG cleric of Asmodeus, or a TN cleric of Asmodeus, just fine. Are you telling me that paladins have to be both hardline LG and, somehow, more devout than clerics? Warpriests? Inquisitors? At what point did the error start, because it's starting to sound like the error was, "This trait got written."
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...But a cleric with the trait in question can be an LG cleric of Asmodeus, or a TN cleric of...James, is that more because you think that paladins of evil gods shouldn't happen in general, or is that an unwritten expansion of the "all divine spellcasters' alignment - not just clerics and druids - must be no more than one step away from their god's" rule?Paladins of Asmodeus have been retconned out of the setting, at least as NPCs with actual levels of paladin.Correct. That wasn't a retcon, actually. That was us correcting an actual and legitimate error. In the same way if we spell the word "Wizard" as "Wziard," that doesn't mean that there are actually characters out there with levels in a new class called "Wziard."It's because paladins have a hard alignment requirement. They MUST be lawful good.
You can't worship Asmodeus and remain lawful good.
1) Paladins need to be devout and faithful.
2) A devout and faithful worshiper of a deity follows the deity's rules
3) A worshiper who is devout and faithful to a LE deity is most likely LE himself... or MAYBE LN or NE, but those are slipping into heresy. None of these are LG, and thus you can't be a paladin who is a devout and faithful worshiper of Asmodeus.
4) If you stayed LG somehow while still worshiping Asmodeus, you would be worshiping Asmodeus in a way that is blatantly disregarding the teachings of Asmodeus, and this is a chaotic act, and thus the longer you worship the more your alignment actually slips toward chaos.. That isn't LG, and thus you can't be a paladin who worships Asmodeus in a chaotic way.Thus, there's no way to be a paladin AND be a worshiper of Asmodeus.
You can certainly be any other class and claim to be a paladin while still worshiping Asmodeus... but you would NOT be a palaidn.
It's an error. Has nothing to do with what I think or an unwritten expansion. It's the way the rules work.
Paladins have always had to been more devout and held to a stricter code, hence their code.
The trait in question allows a small certain sect of clerics from a certain city to worship a heretical mockery of Asmodeus.
Which of the tenents that a LG cleric of Admodeus follows wouldn't be acceptable for a Paladin to have but would be acceptable for a LG cleric?
Which of the tenents that a LG cleric of Admodeus follows wouldn't be acceptable for a Paladin to have but would be acceptable for a LG cleric?The intentional interpretation of an Evil deity as not evil part.
So it's acceptable for someone who IS directly granted power by a god (A cleric) to worship an evil god as good but it's not acceptable from someone who gets their powers independent of god worship to worship an evil god as good? You'd think the former would be more closely tied to the actual nature of the god than the latter.
How does this work for Godclaw Paladins (As there was expressly a paladin in the Hellknight book) who worship Asmodeus among other lawful gods?
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So it's acceptable for someone who IS directly granted power by a god (A cleric) to worship an evil god as good but it's not acceptable from someone who gets their powers independent of god worship to worship an evil god as good? You'd think the former would be more closely tied to the actual nature of the god than the latter.Which of the tenents that a LG cleric of Admodeus follows wouldn't be acceptable for a Paladin to have but would be acceptable for a LG cleric?The intentional interpretation of an Evil deity as not evil part.
I'd say if you're a Paladin that worships a Deity you get your powers through that Deity, as opposed to a Paladin that doesn't worship a deity. Also a Paladin worshipping a deity has to follow that deity's tenets in addition to their code of conduct, whereas a Cleric just has to follow their Deity's tenants.
And they're not, for the effects of their worship, worshipping the traditional Chelexian LE deity Asmodeus, they're worshipping The Wily Linguist, who is a LN deity. Which is an intentional misinterpretation of an diety which is another reason why Paladin's probably can't worship them, that whole not lying thing.
And note the example NPC of that specific church (a single church, not a widespread or even large religion) is LN.
How does this work for Godclaw Paladins (As there was expressly a paladin in the Hellknight book) who worship Asmodeus among other lawful gods?
Because they're aren't worshipping Asmodues, they're worshipping the Godclaw, which is a pantheon made up of the Lawful aspects of multiple deities.
Worshipping an established alternate interpretation of a deity already has precedent before these examples as well, with the many forms of Nylarthotep and that Desna/Gozreh combination Shimye-Magalla in Garund.
Worshipping an established alternate interpretation of a deity already has precedent before these examples as well, with the many forms of Nylarthotep and that Desna/Gozreh combination Shimye-Magalla in Garund.
Sorry but I'm a bit confused here. So it's not acceptable for a paladin to worship the Wily Linguist as a LN god becuase it's a false interpretation but it IS alright for a Paladin to worship the Godclaw pantheon that includes LE Admodeus because it's an alternate interpretation?
Those sorta seem like the same situation.
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Worshipping an established alternate interpretation of a deity already has precedent before these examples as well, with the many forms of Nylarthotep and that Desna/Gozreh combination Shimye-Magalla in Garund.Sorry but I'm a bit confused here. So it's not acceptable for a paladin to worship the Wily Linguist as a LN god becuase it's a false interpretation but it IS alright for a Paladin to worship the Godclaw pantheon that includes LE Admodeus because it's an alternate interpretation?
Those sorta seem like the same situation.
The Wily Linguist is an alternate take on a single Deity, the Godclaw is a pantheon, made up of : Abadar (Lawful Neutral), Asmodeus (Lawful Evil), Iomedae (Lawful Good), Irori (Lawful Neutral), and Torag (lawful Good). So they're following a pantheon made up of aspects of 2 Good Deities, and 2 Neutral Deities, and 1 Evil Deity.
I'll also point out that Cleric's don't get their powers from worshipping Pantheons. The may follow one, but they still get their powers from one specific deity in said pantheon, one that their beliefs probably strive closer to than the others.
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Paladins have always had to been more devout and held to a stricter code, hence their code.
The trait in question allows a small certain sect of clerics from a certain city to worship a heretical mockery of Asmodeus.
Emphasis mine.
The really short response to this is "no." The longer-form response to this is, "Paladins were god-optional as early as 1e D&D." The first paladins I played were in second edition, using material from The Complete Paladin Handbook, where it stopped to talk about the paladin code of the time, why it existed, and what paladins might do, believe, seek, and act like. Forgotten Realms introduced god-required paladins at the same time it introduced god-required clerics, druids, and rangers (with those last two being particularly annoying, incidentally) and its massive popularity caused it to be seen as the standard, but it never was and until 5e made it the core setting, never had been.
Setting aside the heritage systems - that is, setting aside that word 'always' - the idea that paladins are more devout than literal priests strikes me as more than a little bit absurd. From a mechanical perspective, even warpriests and inquisitors are granted divine power above and beyond the call of even the most puissant paladin, to say nothing of clerics that can reshape the world with mighty divine magics. Those three classes have one loyalty that they have to be concerned with - their god. Indeed, clerics etc. fall, losing access to these incredible miracles, if they act out of step with their god or, y'know, manage to make them upset.
A paladin's first loyalty is not and has never been to their god. A paladin's first loyalty is to justice, to Good itself. Paladins don't fall for making their gods upset, they fall for doing evil, for failing to act with honor. The idea that clerics get a pass for "heresy" but paladins, people whose loyalties put their god distinctly second - people who, like clerics, sometimes don't even bother to worship a good-aligned deity - do not, is laughable and hypocritical. And this gets even more annoying when you remember that the gods of Golarion and, for that matter, every PF & D&D setting are fallible. They make mistakes. They get angry. Their priorities do not always benefit the weak or helpless. They love, hate, and sometimes even change alignment. A paladin, whose devotion is supposed to be to Good first and all other things second, unquestioningly accepting the orders of beings who may not share that devotion is not really a great way to characterize paladinhood. The gods of Golarion have fallen to corruption before, after all. They may again.
Paladins have "always" been archetypes of knightly honor, justice, duty, and loyalty. They place the defense of the weak, the punishment of the wicked, and the spread of Good through example and heroism above other obligations. Traditionally, a paladin joins a church because it is relevant to their lives (see for example: a paladin specializing in hunting evil spellcasters who worships Boccob) or because in that church they see something to respect and admire, which they feel is worth promoting in the lives of others. You can see an example of that second one in Forgotten Realms with paladins of Sune, a Chaotic goddess who nonetheless sponsors them because they agree that beauty and love are high virtues worth fighting to defend. A paladin in one's church is a good sign, and also a barometer for corruption. When they walk, it's time to take a good hard look at the clergy and lay members and try to figure out where you messed up, because you messed up somewhere.
Paladins have also "always" been used as cautionary examples of what happens when they fail to consider their own morality, instead trusting in others to guide them. A paladin is supposed to be the guide. Look at the Darklord of Nidalia, in Ravenloft, a paladin who rather unfortunately trusted wholly in her church to guide and advise her and was lead down a dark path that ended in genocide and, eventually, imprisonment in the Demiplane of Dread, where she still remains blissfully ignorant of her own evil because she is surrounded by those who tell her that she is good, just, and holy.
The arguments you're making, and which have been made on this subject, are essentially trying to display one's cake and eat it too. Either paladins are discount warpriests, in which case A. why do they exist and B. why are they only lawful good, or paladins are exemplars of virtue, whose duty it is to guide and, if need be, check or even oppose the organizations and churches that they elect to join.
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*shrugs*
I guess my much shorter playtime, compared to yours, has colored my thoughts differently.
As for the "literal priests" part, Paladins can be priests, just because you're a Cleric doesn't mean your Deity likes you more than their other followers, it just means you get a different suite of abilities gifted to you.
As to your last question, I agree, it's the latter, you seem to have conflated religion with faith though.
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Cool thoughts
I think, more than anything else, Asmodeus wants to give Sarenrae no reason to shift him from "redeemable" to "unredeemable" in her book. He's seen what happens when she decides a foe fits in the latter column. The response is quick, furious, and unrelenting. He would really have to have his ducks in a row before trying the "blackmail Sarenrae with releasing Rovagug" idea.
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*shrugs*
I guess my much shorter playtime, compared to yours, has colored my thoughts differently.
As for the "literal priests" part, Paladins can be priests, just because you're a Cleric doesn't mean your Deity likes you more than their other followers, it just means you get a different suite of abilities gifted to you.
As to your last question, I agree, it's the latter, you seem to have conflated religion with faith though.
I dunno, I'd call 'Being gifted 9th level spells' liking you a lot more than the paladin. The latter gets the booby prize of the pair.
Though more seriously: With Clerics being granted power by the god but Paladins being independent of the god it certainly feels like Clerics are the more faithful ones. After all, no part of a paladin's oath requires him to hold to the tenants of any god while a cleric falls directly based on his god.
*shrugs*
I guess my much shorter playtime, compared to yours, has colored my thoughts differently.
As for the "literal priests" part, Paladins can be priests, just because you're a Cleric doesn't mean your Deity likes you more than their other followers, it just means you get a different suite of abilities gifted to you.
As to your last question, I agree, it's the latter, you seem to have conflated religion with faith though.
In addition to Iki's post above, clerics, inquisitors, and warpriests are explicitly priests. Even the various Pathfinder SRDs stop to mention this, to say nothing of the loving descriptions of their roles in various churches contained in the books they actually got published in. I should imagine the person you trust to guide your flock, interpret your will, summon your servants, raise the dead, and promote your teachings, glory, and name across the world might possibly just be held in more esteem than the fighter who stops by your church twice a week, says his prayers, and goes on with his life. I'm wondering where it is you acquired a different line of thought on the matter.
And while one does not need a religion to have faith, the two tend to be synonymous in the context of the competing-monotheism setup favored by Golarion, Forgotten Realms, and the like. When your god can (and does) personally talk to people - sometimes whether they ask to talk to that god or not - you tend to only get lone wolves and solitary practitioners if the god in question permits it. Indeed, the entire existence of the inquisitor class as presented is in part to ensure that people who worship a given deity are doing so properly, and especially for lawful people like, say, a paladin, the idea of belonging to a faith but not identifying with its organized church or at least some facet of its organized church is a bit silly. Communal cohesion is one of law's big goals and benefits.
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*shrugs*
I guess my much shorter playtime, compared to yours, has colored my thoughts differently.
As for the "literal priests" part, Paladins can be priests, just because you're a Cleric doesn't mean your Deity likes you more than their other followers, it just means you get a different suite of abilities gifted to you.
As to your last question, I agree, it's the latter, you seem to have conflated religion with faith though.
I dunno, I'd call 'Being gifted 9th level spells' liking you a lot more than the paladin. The latter gets the booby prize of the pair.
Though more seriously: With Clerics being granted power by the god but Paladins being independent of the god it certainly feels like Clerics are the more faithful ones. After all, no part of a paladin's oath requires him to hold to the tenants of any god while a cleric falls directly based on his god.
I wouldn't really consider having to grind up to 17th level being "gifted" anything.
And my posts have been in reference to a Paladin that does worship a deity, not the ones that don't.
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*shrugs*
I guess my much shorter playtime, compared to yours, has colored my thoughts differently.
As for the "literal priests" part, Paladins can be priests, just because you're a Cleric doesn't mean your Deity likes you more than their other followers, it just means you get a different suite of abilities gifted to you.
As to your last question, I agree, it's the latter, you seem to have conflated religion with faith though.
In addition to Iki's post above, clerics, inquisitors, and warpriests are explicitly priests. Even the various Pathfinder SRDs stop to mention this, to say nothing of the loving descriptions of their roles in various churches contained in the books they actually got published in. I should imagine the person you trust to guide your flock, interpret your will, summon your servants, raise the dead, and promote your teachings, glory, and name across the world might possibly just be held in more esteem than the fighter who stops by your church twice a week, says his prayers, and goes on with his life. I'm wondering where it is you acquired a different line of thought on the matter.
And while one does not need a religion to have faith, the two tend to be synonymous in the context of the competing-monotheism setup favored by Golarion, Forgotten Realms, and the like. When your god can (and does) personally talk to people - sometimes whether they ask to talk to that god or not - you tend to only get lone wolves and solitary practitioners if the god in question permits it. Indeed, the entire existence of the inquisitor class as presented is in part to ensure that people who worship a given deity are doing so properly, and especially for lawful people like, say, a paladin, the idea of belonging to a faith but not identifying with its organized church or at least some facet of its organized church is a bit silly. Communal cohesion is one of law's big goals and benefits.
Anyone can explicitly be a priest. A Barbarbain can even be a head priest of a religion. Priest is a title/occupation, different than a Class.
So you wouldn't hold the paladin, I'm sorry "'fighter' that stops by twice a week", the person that protects the "flock" and hunts down its enemies in any esteem? By the by, a Paladin can summon their servants, raise the dead, interpret their will, and promote their teachings as well.
The very existence of multiple denominations and schisms within the worship of a single deity makes your last paragraph kinda moot. A church has power over its acolytes the same way any organization works, but it doesn't have control over it's followers beliefs and faith. A higher ranking priest might be able to get a lower ranking one excommunicated, but that's an entirely social construct and has absolutely no bearing on the believer's divinely granted abilities or connection with their Deity.
Anyone can explicitly be a priest. A Barbarbain can even be a head priest of a religion. Priest is a title/occupation, different than a Class.
Priesthood is and has been heavily associated with divine casting to the point of synonymity in both Pathfinder and its preceding systems. If you'd like to dig me up some examples of priests that aren't divine casters or False Priests I'm all ears but in the meantime I'm decently certain no precedent supports your viewpoint.
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Not to divert the discussion too far from the original topic, but I feel like Rahadoum is getting a bum rap. It's easy to dismiss their misotheism as simple closed-mindedness, and certainly their dogmatism goes above and beyond what can be reasonably justified, but I think their opposition to the gods is more justifiable than people give it credit for.
I mean, worshiping a god can certainly bring a variety of benefits, but in exchange you're essentially selling yourself to that deity for something resembling eternity. Good and/or chaotic deities may not treat their followers like slaves, but the fact remains that, once you get processed at Pharasma's boneyard, you basically *belong* to that deity. You spend the rest of your potentially unlimited existence in their domain, doing things that they're interested in. And if you're really lucky, you get to become an outsider, and probably meet oblivion on some planar battlefield fighting your deity's enemies.
For some, the nothingness of the graveyard of souls is a preferable fate to a never ending existence of devotion to an unknowable alien being, however benevolent its goals may be.
I wouldn't really consider having to grind up to 17th level being "gifted" anything.
And my posts have been in reference to a Paladin that does worship a deity, not the ones that don't.
Well, even one that does worship a deity has nothing in his class that would make him stop losing spells based on the deity's disapproval any more than say, a wizard would. The section on Ex-Paladins/Code of Conduct involves nothing about the deity in question.
Heck, it seems like it would be entirely possible for a paladin to fall while maintaining the good faith of his god if he's a worshipper of a Neutral Good god, as Neutral Good is less honor focused than a Paladin would be.
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Anyone can explicitly be a priest. A Barbarbain can even be a head priest of a religion. Priest is a title/occupation, different than a Class.Priesthood is and has been heavily associated with divine casting to the point of synonymity in both Pathfinder and its preceding systems. If you'd like to dig me up some examples of priests that aren't divine casters or False Priests I'm all ears but in the meantime I'm decently certain no precedent supports your viewpoint.
-_-
*sigh*
If you're going to scrounge for stuff to back up your argument/make a snarky comeback at least do some fact checking and not link to a prestige class on website that files all the numbers off.
The ACTUAL Paizo prestige class you were trying to link to is the Razmiran Priest.
As for your question, sure! Look up any Deity article in the APs or Inner Sea Gods and you can see a variant spells unique to priests that follow that Deity, that includes non-clerics. The main examples being wizards.
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Anyone can explicitly be a priest. A Barbarbain can even be a head priest of a religion. Priest is a title/occupation, different than a Class.Priesthood is and has been heavily associated with divine casting to the point of synonymity in both Pathfinder and its preceding systems. If you'd like to dig me up some examples of priests that aren't divine casters or False Priests I'm all ears but in the meantime I'm decently certain no precedent supports your viewpoint.
Each of the gods' entries in Inner Sea Gods talk about what kinds of classes typically become priests of a certain faith. For one nonstandard, noncaster example, the entry for Norgorber includes this line: "Rogues, assassins, alchemists, and shadowdancers make up the bulk of Norgorber's clergy, though spellcasters and even more specialized types also serve him." Granted, that line doesn't specifically say priest and instead uses the word clergy, but I'd call that close enough.
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I wouldn't really consider having to grind up to 17th level being "gifted" anything.
And my posts have been in reference to a Paladin that does worship a deity, not the ones that don't.
Well, even one that does worship a deity has nothing in his class that would make him stop losing spells based on the deity's disapproval any more than say, a wizard would. The section on Ex-Paladins/Code of Conduct involves nothing about the deity in question.
Heck, it seems like it would be entirely possible for a paladin to fall while maintaining the good faith of his god if he's a worshipper of a Neutral Good god, as Neutral Good is less honor focused than a Paladin would be.
Not spells but there is
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.
Hmm, and a Paladin "falling" into NG has been a scenario that has interested me for quite some time.
Each of the gods' entries in Inner Sea Gods talk about what kinds of classes typically become priests of a certain faith. For one nonstandard, noncaster example, the entry for Norgorber includes this line: "Rogues, assassins, alchemists, and shadowdancers make up the bulk of Norgorber's clergy, though spellcasters and even more specialized types also serve him." Granted, that line doesn't specifically say priest and instead uses the word clergy, but I'd call that close enough.Anyone can explicitly be a priest. A Barbarbain can even be a head priest of a religion. Priest is a title/occupation, different than a Class.Priesthood is and has been heavily associated with divine casting to the point of synonymity in both Pathfinder and its preceding systems. If you'd like to dig me up some examples of priests that aren't divine casters or False Priests I'm all ears but in the meantime I'm decently certain no precedent supports your viewpoint.
Danke, and thank you for stoppin' by. Clergy does indeed tend to be close enough, even if it's technically a broader term (altar boys are 'clergy').
Not spells but there is
Hmm, and a Paladin "falling" into NG has been a scenario that has interested me for quite some time.Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.
So a godless paladin doesn't get his 5th level feature? I was looking at the paladin code of conduct/ex-clerics parts with my comments as the latter mentions a god, the former does not.
So does a Paladin ALSO need to follow his gods code of conduct on top of a Paladin one?
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Not spells but there is
Hmm, and a Paladin "falling" into NG has been a scenario that has interested me for quite some time.Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.
So a godless paladin doesn't get his 5th level feature? I was looking at the paladin code of conduct/ex-clerics parts with my comments as the latter mentions a god, the former does not.
So does a Paladin ALSO need to follow his gods code of conduct on top of a Paladin one?
Hmm, I'm not entirely sure but I believe the Diety's Paladin code overwrites the normal Paladin code if they have one. Not 100% on that though.
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Anyone can explicitly be a priest. A Barbarbain can even be a head priest of a religion. Priest is a title/occupation, different than a Class.Priesthood is and has been heavily associated with divine casting to the point of synonymity in both Pathfinder and its preceding systems. If you'd like to dig me up some examples of priests that aren't divine casters or False Priests I'm all ears but in the meantime I'm decently certain no precedent supports your viewpoint.
Had a longer post initially, but Adam made my point much more succinctly. Just to reinforce what he's already said, here are some quotes that explicitly use the term "priest" or "priesthood" with regard to non-divine casters:
"Priests of Desna—including clerics, bards, rogues, rangers, and occasionally druids—go where they please, earning money by telling fortunes, providing entertainment, and interpreting dreams."
"Any spellcaster can join Nethys’s priesthood: whether divine or arcane, academy-trained wizard or wild shaman, all who call upon magical power are welcome. Divine casters are valued, but must be able to defend their positions with magical knowledge or brute power."
"Most of Urgathoa’s priests are clerics or necromancers (particularly sorcerers with the undead bloodline), as well as a few similarly inclined witches."
It's also worth noting that any character can get divine boons from a deity they worship even if they can't cast spells, in the form of traits, feats, and various other things like Cavalier orders and prestige classes.
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Anyone can explicitly be a priest. A Barbarbain can even be a head priest of a religion. Priest is a title/occupation, different than a Class.Priesthood is and has been heavily associated with divine casting to the point of synonymity in both Pathfinder and its preceding systems. If you'd like to dig me up some examples of priests that aren't divine casters or False Priests I'm all ears but in the meantime I'm decently certain no precedent supports your viewpoint.
Of the three 'high priests' of Pharasma in the temple in Inner Sea Temples, one of them is a diviner.
That's just from products that came out this month. I'm pretty sure some older references exist, such as in Gods & Magic, where priests of Asmodeus can be diabolist wizards, priests of Calistria, Cayden and Desna can be bards, etc. Irori's a special case in that his priesthood is about 50/50 split between clerics and *monks,* who are not only not divine spellcasters, but not spellcasters at all! For Nethys, *any* wielder of magic can be a priest, including sorcerers. Norgorber also allows non-spellcasters to be priests, specifically rogues and shadowdancers, but also non-divine casters like assassins, bards, enchanters and illusionists.
And I have to go to work now, so I'll stop at N. :)
Inner Sea Gods, a much more recent book than Gods & Magic (which could be considered a shoddy reference, being so old), seems to hold up at least some of this, as it refers to priests of Irori as including both clerics and monks.
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"Priest" is a word we've often used in our books to denote a person who is part of a faith's religion. A priest can be of any class. It's a gendered word, so it's not the BEST option (which is why you see us sometimes use words like "worshiper" or "clergy" instead).
The fact that we haven't associated the word "priest" with specific class names or rules or other things is intentional, as it's very valuable for us to retain some words so that the only definition that matters is the word's actual definition. (We can no longer indiscriminately use the word "hunter" to talk about folks who make a living hunting for food, for example, or the word "arcanist" as a catch-all word for all arcane spellcasters.)
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Hmm, and a Paladin "falling" into NG has been a scenario that has interested me for quite some time.
For reasons that aren't entirely clear from an in-universe perspective, Paladins *have* to hold themselves to a code of conduct that goes well beyond simply being good. A neutral good character wouldn't bat an eye at telling a lie to protect an innocent life. Heck, most lawful good characters would be willing to do that if they saw no other option. As a paladin, however, you can't make that compromise. You are required to stick to both the letter and the spirit of your code, or forfeit your powers, and that allows little wiggle room for non-lawful behavior.
This, incidentally, is why it makes little sense to me that antipaladins are chaotic evil. Why would a chaotic character adhere so rigidly to any code of conduct, even one that boils down to "be selfish and cruel all the time". I tend to imagine the chaotic evil characters are less predictable than that, and may sometimes, say, help out their buddies with no ulterior motive in mind because they felt like it at the moment. Doesn't mean they won't later shank that buddy mercilessly over a perceived insult; they just happened to be in a charitable mood.
So a godless paladin doesn't get his 5th level feature? I was looking at Hmm, I'm not entirely sure but I believe the Diety's Paladin code overwrites the normal Paladin code if they have one. Not 100% on that though.Not spells but there is
Hmm, and a Paladin "falling" into NG has been a scenario that has interested me for quite some time.Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.
The Paladin's code says "no lying", but IIRC, Torag's code does allow lying. As you cannot be Schrodinger's Paladin and simultaneously be able to lie and not be able to lie, doesn't that HAVE to mean that Torag's code (and by extension, any other deity's code) overwrites the normal code?
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"Priest" is a word we've often used in our books to denote a person who is part of a faith's religion. A priest can be of any class. It's a gendered word, so it's not the BEST option (which is why you see us sometimes use words like "worshiper" or "clergy" instead).
The fact that we haven't associated the word "priest" with specific class names or rules or other things is intentional, as it's very valuable for us to retain some words so that the only definition that matters is the word's actual definition. (We can no longer indiscriminately use the word "hunter" to talk about folks who make a living hunting for food, for example, or the word "arcanist" as a catch-all word for all arcane spellcasters.)
Just to be clear, though, I presume that the title implies some level of authority in the faith as well? After all, we see references to classes that "play an important role in the faith" but are "not clergy", like Bards who follow Cayden Cailean.
Cool thoughtsI think, more than anything else, Asmodeus wants to give Sarenrae no reason to shift him from "redeemable" to "unredeemable" in her book. He's seen what happens when she decides a foe fits in the latter column. The response is quick, furious, and unrelenting. He would really have to have his ducks in a row before trying the "blackmail Sarenrae with releasing Rovagug" idea.
I'm sure Asmodeus is also creative enough to act in ways that make it look like he is redeemable, so that even if Sarenrae knows deep down inside that he isn't, she can never be sure that a significant proportion of other deities aren't at least semi-buying it, and so he gets to keep being abusive like a bad domestic partner, and besides, having the key to Rovagug's prison is ONE REALLY BIG DUCK. (As well as that being the lord of Hellfire, among other things, Asmodeus can probably laugh off the most concentrated blast of solar energy Sarenrae can get out of Golarion's sun, and indeed may have already done so.)
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Just to be clear, though, I presume that the title implies some level of authority in the faith as well? After all, we see references to classes that "play an important role in the faith" but are "not clergy", like Bards who follow Cayden Cailean."Priest" is a word we've often used in our books to denote a person who is part of a faith's religion. A priest can be of any class. It's a gendered word, so it's not the BEST option (which is why you see us sometimes use words like "worshiper" or "clergy" instead).
The fact that we haven't associated the word "priest" with specific class names or rules or other things is intentional, as it's very valuable for us to retain some words so that the only definition that matters is the word's actual definition. (We can no longer indiscriminately use the word "hunter" to talk about folks who make a living hunting for food, for example, or the word "arcanist" as a catch-all word for all arcane spellcasters.)
It indicates a worshiper of a faith. That is it. Doesn't imply anything about positions of authority in the faith. It's a one word shortcut to saying "Individual who worships this deity or follows this religion." It's a synonym, in that regard, with things like clergy or worshiper.
And bards who follow or worship Cayden Cailien can ABSOLUTELY be priests if they want to be part of the organization. If they merely worship him, they are not priests.
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It indicates a worshiper of a faith. That is it. Doesn't imply anything about positions of authority in the faith. It's a one word shortcut to saying "Individual who worships this deity or follows this religion." It's a synonym, in that regard, with things like clergy or worshiper.
And bards who follow or worship Cayden Cailien can ABSOLUTELY be priests if they want to be part of the organization. If they merely worship him, they are not priests.
Thanks for the above clarifications James - I was under the assumption all this time that priest referred to either a) someone with some kind of divine magic; or b) if no divine magic, someone with some kind of status or standing within a given church.
This could lead to a fun RP opportunity for a friend of mine who's created a very interesting fighter of Callistria called "The Revenge Lord".
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It indicates a worshiper of a faith. That is it. Doesn't imply anything about positions of authority in the faith. It's a one word shortcut to saying "Individual who worships this deity or follows this religion." It's a synonym, in that regard, with things like clergy or worshiper.
And bards who follow or worship Cayden Cailien can ABSOLUTELY be priests if they want to be part of the organization. If they merely worship him, they are not priests.
Thanks for the above clarifications James - I was under the assumption all this time that priest referred to either a) someone with some kind of divine magic; or b) if no divine magic, someone with some kind of status or standing within a given church.
This could lead to a fun RP opportunity for a friend of mine who's created a very interesting fighter of Calistria called "The Revenge Lord".
Well, if you look up the deities, some of them have archetypes and such for different classes that doesn't give them divine stuff. There is even a Fighter one for Calistria.
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Just to be clear, though, I presume that the title implies some level of authority in the faith as well? After all, we see references to classes that "play an important role in the faith" but are "not clergy", like Bards who follow Cayden Cailean."Priest" is a word we've often used in our books to denote a person who is part of a faith's religion. A priest can be of any class. It's a gendered word, so it's not the BEST option (which is why you see us sometimes use words like "worshiper" or "clergy" instead).
The fact that we haven't associated the word "priest" with specific class names or rules or other things is intentional, as it's very valuable for us to retain some words so that the only definition that matters is the word's actual definition. (We can no longer indiscriminately use the word "hunter" to talk about folks who make a living hunting for food, for example, or the word "arcanist" as a catch-all word for all arcane spellcasters.)
It indicates a worshiper of a faith. That is it. Doesn't imply anything about positions of authority in the faith. It's a one word shortcut to saying "Individual who worships this deity or follows this religion." It's a synonym, in that regard, with things like clergy or worshiper.
And bards who follow or worship Cayden Cailien can ABSOLUTELY be priests if they want to be part of the organization. If they merely worship him, they are not priests.
This... actually confuses me more. You say that a priest is merely a worshipper of a faith, but that one who "merely worships" Cayden Cailean is not a priest. What does being "part of the organization" entail? I presume it means more than just going to temple on Sunday. It seems like you're saying priests have some type of official function, which presumably varies depending on the faith and the priest, but I would tend to assume that taking on such responsibilities grants them status, or at least respect, in the faith above that of a "mere worshipper."
Edit: Now that I think about it, Inner Sea Gods talks specifically about the training and responsibilities of priests of each deity, and definitely seems to distinguish between priests and simple worshippers of a deity, so it seems to be using a different definition of the term than you are.
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This... actually confuses me more. You say that a priest is merely a worshipper of a faith, but that one who "merely worships" Cayden Cailean is not a priest. What does being "part of the organization" entail? I presume it means more than just going to temple on Sunday. It seems like you're saying priests have some type of official function, which presumably varies depending on the faith and the priest, but I would tend to assume that taking on such responsibilities grants them status, or at least respect, in the faith...Just to be clear, though, I presume that the title implies some level of authority in the faith as well? After all, we see references to classes that "play an important role in the faith" but are "not clergy", like Bards who follow Cayden Cailean."Priest" is a word we've often used in our books to denote a person who is part of a faith's religion. A priest can be of any class. It's a gendered word, so it's not the BEST option (which is why you see us sometimes use words like "worshiper" or "clergy" instead).
The fact that we haven't associated the word "priest" with specific class names or rules or other things is intentional, as it's very valuable for us to retain some words so that the only definition that matters is the word's actual definition. (We can no longer indiscriminately use the word "hunter" to talk about folks who make a living hunting for food, for example, or the word "arcanist" as a catch-all word for all arcane spellcasters.)
It indicates a worshiper of a faith. That is it. Doesn't imply anything about positions of authority in the faith. It's a one word shortcut to saying "Individual who worships this deity or follows this religion." It's a synonym, in that regard, with things like clergy or worshiper.
And bards who follow or worship Cayden Cailien can ABSOLUTELY be priests if they want to be part of the organization. If they merely worship him, they are not priests.
No, the Inner Sea Gods definition is the right one we use and the one I use, it's just had the benefit of having the author have more time to compose the words and then having a developer and several editors improve it more than my off-the-cuff definition had.