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There better be. The Rouge class is in serious need of a buff.I was so looking forward to playing a Wziard though! Are you saying there isn't going to be a book called Misspelled Class Guide?Paladins of Asmodeus have been retconned out of the setting, at least as NPCs with actual levels of paladin.Correct. That wasn't a retcon, actually. That was us correcting an actual and legitimate error. In the same way if we spell the word "Wizard" as "Wziard," that doesn't mean that there are actually characters out there with levels in a new class called "Wziard."
YOu so missed the chance to say she was in need of a makeover.
==Aelryinth
Creative Director
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James, is that more because you think that paladins of evil gods shouldn't happen in general, or is that an unwritten expansion of the "all divine spellcasters' alignment - not just clerics and druids - must be no more than one step away from their god's" rule?Paladins of Asmodeus have been retconned out of the setting, at least as NPCs with actual levels of paladin.Correct. That wasn't a retcon, actually. That was us correcting an actual and legitimate error. In the same way if we spell the word "Wizard" as "Wziard," that doesn't mean that there are actually characters out there with levels in a new class called "Wziard."
It's because paladins have a hard alignment requirement. They MUST be lawful good.
You can't worship Asmodeus and remain lawful good.
1) Paladins need to be devout and faithful.
2) A devout and faithful worshiper of a deity follows the deity's rules
3) A worshiper who is devout and faithful to a LE deity is most likely LE himself... or MAYBE LN or NE, but those are slipping into heresy. None of these are LG, and thus you can't be a paladin who is a devout and faithful worshiper of Asmodeus.
4) If you stayed LG somehow while still worshiping Asmodeus, you would be worshiping Asmodeus in a way that is blatantly disregarding the teachings of Asmodeus, and this is a chaotic act, and thus the longer you worship the more your alignment actually slips toward chaos.. That isn't LG, and thus you can't be a paladin who worships Asmodeus in a chaotic way.
Thus, there's no way to be a paladin AND be a worshiper of Asmodeus.
You can certainly be any other class and claim to be a paladin while still worshiping Asmodeus... but you would NOT be a palaidn.
It's an error. Has nothing to do with what I think or an unwritten expansion. It's the way the rules work.
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This is due having a high SR (spell resistance)I was so looking forward to playing a Wziard though! Are you saying there isn't going to be a book called Misspelled Class Guide?Paladins of Asmodeus have been retconned out of the setting, at least as NPCs with actual levels of paladin.Correct. That wasn't a retcon, actually. That was us correcting an actual and legitimate error. In the same way if we spell the word "Wizard" as "Wziard," that doesn't mean that there are actually characters out there with levels in a new class called "Wziard."
HA! That might be my new favorite insult!
You can't worship Asmodeus and remain lawful good.
Isn't this the essential bind that the faith of Iomedae is suffering in Cheliax?
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Remember that slavery in and of itself is not Evil. Slavery arose as an alternative to the outright slaughter of enemies in wartime. Make them work for you instead of butchering them.
Slavery for the sake of slavery IS Evil. Enslaving others simply because you want slaves IS a bad thing.
This is why the practice of 'buying slaves to set them free' is useless. The slaver is STILL GETTING PAID. You've just given him an additional, unlimited market...every slave he brings to market you're potentially going to buy from him and set free, so he should actually go out and ENSLAVE EVEN MORE.
Slavery as a punishment for crimes; slavery as an alternative to incarceration or slaughter: these are neutral things, and actually a sign of advancing civilization.
Rewarding people for providing slaves is rewarding people for removing the freedom of others, and one of the great Evils of civilization. Paying others to act that way is only fostering the behavior, and no Good Church would ever be foolish enough to engage in the practice and encourage the very thing they want to be rid of.
In the end, the only ways to stop slavery are a) kill all the slavers, so there is no one to deliver the slaves or b) remove the market for slaves by changing the society so it isn't tolerated, meaning nobody buys slaves for sale, and there's no incentive to enslave others.
Anything else is simply feeding the machine.
==Aelryinth
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(see Iomedae's flaw about not having a lot of patience for rabble rousers [...])
We prefer the term "community organizers".
No... the essential bind is that the power of the nation resides firmly in the hands of an enemy religion.You can't worship Asmodeus and remain lawful good.Isn't this the essential bind that the faith of Iomedae is suffering in Cheliax?
But then how do we get something like the Hellknight Order of the Godclaw, which distills the aspects of five different Law domain gods? I'm assuming that Asmodeus is ok with this organization since he hasn't had his other agents wipe them out.
I (also) ask this because I'm developing a character where the current plan is a War Priest of Iomedae into Hellknight Signfifer, Order of the Godclaw, probably from Isger.
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No... the essential bind is that the power of the nation resides firmly in the hands of an enemy religion.You can't worship Asmodeus and remain lawful good.Isn't this the essential bind that the faith of Iomedae is suffering in Cheliax?But then how do we get something like the Hellknight Order of the Godclaw, which distills the aspects of five different Law domain gods? I'm assuming that Asmodeus is ok with this organization since he hasn't had his other agents wipe them out.
I (also) ask this because I'm developing a character where the current plan is a War Priest of Iomedae into Hellknight Signfifer, Order of the Godclaw, probably from Isger.
Asmodeus, and ANY deity, doesn't micromanage things on that level. That's for the church to do, and so far, the church of Asmodeus finds value in there being an organization that allows worshipers of Asmodeus to work hand in hand with worshipers of Iomedae. The same goes for Iomedae.
Actual members of the God Claw are a little bit crazy, a little bit heretical, and a little bit willing to do wahtever it takes (including associate with what would normally be enemies) in order to get a greater job done.
And also, things like the Order of the God Claw exist as exceptions... they're primarily interesting BECAUSE they break expectations.
Asmodeus, and ANY deity, doesn't micromanage things on that level. That's for the church to do, and so far, the church of Asmodeus finds value in there being an organization that allows worshipers of Asmodeus to work hand in hand with worshipers of Iomedae. The same goes for Iomedae.
Actual members of the God Claw are a little bit crazy, a little bit heretical, and a little bit willing to do wahtever it takes (including associate with what would normally be enemies) in order to get a greater job done.
And also, things like the Order of the God Claw exist as exceptions... they're primarily interesting BECAUSE they break expectations.
Oh goodie. I like a reason to be a little crazy…
So that same level of "not micromanaging" would explain why Sarenrae hasn't squashed her church in Quadira (yet).
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Asmodeus, and ANY deity, doesn't micromanage things on that level.
Well, that brings up the question of how much personal interest the deities do take in their followers, and how much they do micromanage, though maybe that's a subject for another thread. Though the discussion about Sarenrae has already switched to talk about Asmodeus, so I guess we're kinda free forming on the topic at this point.
In my case, I have a battle oracle who was cursed by Iomedae. I wrote a fairly detailed back story for him, which includes why Iomedae chose him, and her choosing the Infernal tongues curse and which spells to grant him for very specific reasons. I thought that might be more micro-managing than most deities would do, but I've also seen published Paizo adventures where the bad guys have even more direct contact with their deities, so I figure this sort of thing happens sometimes.
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I believe micromanaging the continued future of your character might be a bit much (though it always depends on the story). Oracles are kinda like plants really...plant the source growth, and watch them grow. If it rains,and the sun is right, and they don't get trampled, they'll prosper. If none of this happens, they'll get an orc falchion up the face, and die.
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I believe micromanaging the continued future of your character might be a bit much (though it always depends on the story). Oracles are kinda like plants really...plant the source growth, and watch them grow. If it rains,and the sun is right, and they don't get trampled, they'll prosper. If none of this happens, they'll get an orc falchion up the face, and die.
One of the things I always wondered, though, (and even started a thread about) was who picks the oracles abilities and spells. Clerics pray for specific spells. Oracles don't.
Does the oracle gain new spells based on what they think will be best for themselves, or does the deity choose for them? If the deity chooses, then that's clearly a form of micro-managing along the way. And that's pretty much what I did with my battle oracle, in saying that Iomedae chose spells for Gorjo that sent specific messages to him at specific points in his life.
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One of the things I always wondered, though, (and even started a thread about) was who picks the oracles abilities and spells. Clerics pray for specific spells. Oracles don't.Does the oracle gain new spells based on what they think will be best for themselves, or does the deity choose for them? If the deity chooses, then that's clearly a form of micro-managing along the way. And that's pretty much what I did with my battle oracle, in saying that Iomedae chose spells for Gorjo that sent specific messages to him at specific points in his life.
As long as the *player* gets to choose, and the notion of 'my oracle received spells chosen for her by a god' doesn't get twisted into 'the GM chooses my characters spells for me,' it's all good.
I would imagine the best answer would be, 'whatever fits your character.'
One oracle might consciously pick their own spells in-game as they explore different aspects of the Mystery they have embraced, celebrating and enjoying the new insights they are being shown.
Another might regard the Mystery as a curse that has been inflicted upon them, and while their player is choosing oracle class levels, they resent and despise the 'class' and the visions and the life-changing miracles that follow them around and would never as a character choose to have taken that first oracle level, or any oracle level again. (Plus the Mystery doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a god, in specific.)
The same sort of thing might be suitable for a Sorcerer, to not *want* to have the taint of aberrant ancestry bursting out of them and warping their body and mind, but the *player* wants to play a Sorcerer, and so the hapless character must continue advancing as a Sorcerer, new powers and spells and mad insights forcing themselves unto the character, who only ever wanted to be a butcher, baker, candlestick-maker and settle down with his trade-craft sweetheart and die in bed surrounded by fat grandchildren, instead of all this adventuring in pursuit of arcane secrets or whatever, prevented from ever having a normal life and home and family by his own mutating flesh and alien inspirations.
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Speaking of micromanaging, how do the deities know what their followers (and non-followers) are doing anyway? Is omniscience a common thing among Golarion's gods? I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the setting materials. If they're not omniscient, then how do they keep up with their flocks? Does the act of prayer also serve as a 'data dump', or do the gods only know what their followers tell them? Is it assumed, as a cleric, that a god knows your thoughts, or are you free to lie to them?
Hmm.
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Speaking of micromanaging, how do the deities know what their followers (and non-followers) are doing anyway? Is omniscience a common thing among Golarion's gods? I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the setting materials. If they're not omniscient, then how do they keep up with their flocks? Does the act of prayer also serve as a 'data dump', or do the gods only know what their followers tell them? Is it assumed, as a cleric, that a god knows your thoughts, or are you free to lie to them?
Hmm.
I've wondered this, as well.
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I've wondered this, as well.Speaking of micromanaging, how do the deities know what their followers (and non-followers) are doing anyway? Is omniscience a common thing among Golarion's gods? I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the setting materials. If they're not omniscient, then how do they keep up with their flocks? Does the act of prayer also serve as a 'data dump', or do the gods only know what their followers tell them? Is it assumed, as a cleric, that a god knows your thoughts, or are you free to lie to them?
Hmm.
Think of a group of worshippers as leaves on a tree and the deity is surrounded by a forest. At any time he wishes he can focus his attention on a particular tree or even a specific leaf, and can observe everything there is to see and know about that tree or that leaf... but truth be told, he's more focused on tending the forest, keeping it healthy and helping it grow.
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I assume they are not truly omniscient, but probably have some sort of awareness of the metaverse far beyond that of anything mortal.
I assume they are not truly omniscient, but probably have some sort of awareness of the metaverse far beyond that of anything mortal.
This reminds me of Heimdall in the Thor comics/movies.
Though he can see everything in the metaverse, he can only focus his attention on bits of it at any time.
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So assuming we accept that explanation, how much knowledge can they have of something when they decide to focus on it? Can they just see it as if observing as an outsider, or can they actually read the minds of their worshipers and know all their secrets? If not, how do they know which worshipers to cut off from their power for behaving wrongly? Is it just based on their actions, or their hearts and minds, as well? What about the minds of non-worshipers?
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I've actually put a lot of thought into this. A lot. Way too much. If you want my non-canon ramblings 'bout finite/limited "omni"science (or, more accurately, "pleniscience") of finite plenipresent divinity, I'll be happy to share. But be warned: that Pandora's box (i.e. "My mouth"*) won't shut until the rabbit hole is so deeply dug, the rabbits live in the Darklands. And even then it oft continues to produce...
Beware...
(No, like, seriously, I'm itching to share, but I usually write way too much and I don't want to dump my inanity/insanity all over a thread unless people actually want it... sometimes. Well, I'm trying to be better about that. Trying. On occasion.) :)
* Okay, fingers/keyboard/whatever, really, but it's the same principle.
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Tacticslion, you don't need anyone's permission to unload. Go ahead. I have ideas myself, but I'm out with friends right now - and a handful of drinks in - so my input won't amount to much.
D&D makes a mountain of assumptions w/o truly exploring the implications, Paizo included. Anything that might add depth, and a writer's consideration, is welcome. I'm sorry if that makes it sound like Paizo's writers aren't thorough, but their job is to design the 'rides'. It's us, the players, who give them cohesion and meaning.
{. . .}
In Sarenrae's case, her complexity was made a little bit MORE complex than originally intended when some early work that some authors did on stuff with here before we had a better organized creative control over all of Golarion took her faith and religion in some directions that were never really intended for her. The result is that there's something of a schism in her faith in Qadira, {. . .}
I've been wondering if some of this might have to do with Sarenrae having as-yet-undisclosed less than purely good origins -- in the published lore, she is ascended to full divinity from Empyreal Lord status, but what was she before that? Maybe she eventually became the Goddess of Redemption because in her pre-Empyreal history, she had to redeem herself, and now feels obligated to make the same chance available to as many others as possible, even to a fault? Going further, unwanted but unavoidable ties to her lower origins could maintain a taint that finds its way out in some of her worshippers.
Legends of divine beings that fell from grace are fairly common. Why not the opposite?
{. . .}
In Sarenrae's case, her complexity was made a little bit MORE complex than originally intended when some early work that some authors did on stuff with here before we had a better organized creative control over all of Golarion took her faith and religion in some directions that were never really intended for her. The result is that there's something of a schism in her faith in Qadira, {. . .}
I've been wondering if some of this might have to do with Sarenrae having as-yet-undisclosed less than purely good origins -- in the published lore, she is ascended to full divinity from Empyreal Lord status, but what was she before that? Maybe she eventually became the Goddess of Redemption because in her pre-Empyreal history, she had to redeem herself, and now feels obligated to make the same chance available to as many others as possible, even to a fault? Going further, unwanted but unavoidable ties to her lower origins could maintain a taint that finds its way out in some of her worshippers.
Legends of divine beings that fell from grace are fairly common. Why not the opposite?
Before that, her first major recorded act, as an angel, seems to have been convincing Ihys not to revoke free will from mortals by showing him the good they'd done. Assuming Tabris's account of the Asmodean creation myth is true.
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Personally, I vastly prefer Sarenrae as always having been Good and righteous. Not everyone who's nice or interested in redemption needs to have some horrible sin they're atoning for. Some of them can and should just be nice people who want to help. Sarenrae fits into that category in my mind, and I much prefer her that way.
yeah...going on the Book of the Damned, Sarenrae is really old, almost as old as Asmodeus, and was probably one of the first angels.
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As far as omniscience, I like the Harry Dresden version. There are a lot of entities who have 'intellectus', meaning they can know whatever they want to know. However, they don't necessarily know the questions they must ask to find out.
The span of a true deity's attention is probably not so limited that they actually have to focus on something to learn about it...it's just that the vast majority of it isn't worth personal attention and just blurs into the background with all the lip service prayers.
==Aelryinth
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As long as the 'one step rule' exists, and clerics (and churches) of any given god can be any of three to five different alignments, and worshippers of any given god can be *any* alignment (since they aren't clerics anyway), and we're playing in a setting where there's a demigod of *heresy* who is literally all about causing schisms in faiths, there being Sarenraens who don't agree 100% with each other is totally rules and setting-appropriate.
It also means that more gods means more choices, with not every follower of god X being exactly the same, and, in some cases, perhaps even having pretty wildly different views (a CN elven cleric of Nethys and a LN Osirioni cleric of Nethys and a NE Gebbite cleric of Nethys and a NG Absolomi cleric of Nethys, for instance, might have very different ideas about their respective faiths).
There seems to be entirely too much focus on telling players that they are playing their fictitious worshippers of fictitious gods wrong because they had an idea that wasn't in the couple page-brochure sized amount of official material on gods that have had, in some cases, hundreds of thousands of worshippers over many millenia.
It's much more interesting, I think, if the gods, and their churches and worshippers, are *not* zombie robots running some alignment-based programming off of punch cards, and can have differences of opinions, and perhaps even (gasp!) change their minds, from time to time.
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yeah...going on the Book of the Damned, Sarenrae is really old, almost as old as Asmodeus, and was probably one of the first angels.If not older than him!!!
Yup! The story about Asmodeus and Ihys in The Book of the Damned, is, of course, the orign story Asmodeus wants you to believe. You've got the word of the Prince of Darkness himself on that. I mean, come on... Who's more trustworthy than the Devil? I'm sure he'd never tell a falsehood to his faithful!
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And the Party invented the aeroplane, and we've always been at war with Eastasia.
Yup! The story about Asmodeus and Ihys in The Book of the Damned, is, of course, the orign story Asmodeus wants you to believe. You've got the word of the Prince of Darkness himself on that. I mean, come on... Who's more trustworthy than the Devil? I'm sure he'd never tell a falsehood to his faithful!yeah...going on the Book of the Damned, Sarenrae is really old, almost as old as Asmodeus, and was probably one of the first angels.If not older than him!!!
I've never bought that. Tabris's account does not paint Asmodeus in a good light -- he's obviously the villain of the piece. The idea that it's the story his own church puts forth has only shown up recently, and is just strange.
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Huh. Okay. I... didn't really think I'd get a bite.
I... appreciate the support, all. You rock.
That said...
As far as omniscience, I like the Harry Dresden version. There are a lot of entities who have 'intellectus', meaning they can know whatever they want to know. However, they don't necessarily know the questions they must ask to find out.
The span of a true deity's attention is probably not so limited that they actually have to focus on something to learn about it...it's just that the vast majority of it isn't worth personal attention and just blurs into the background with all the lip service prayers.
==Aelryinth
There is something to say for this. In my mind, the concept of pleniscience actually is partially related to this, although they're not exactly the same thing: alternatively, one could look at the above as one possible take on "unenlightened deities" - a deity could know everything it wants, but doesn't necessarily, as it lacks the inherent enlightenment to know what it wants to know.
That said, my own concept probably diverges from this heavily.
Bear in mind that much of my ideas of pleniscience are not things that normal sentience can attain.
Point in fact, it's exceedingly important to remember that a god's mind does not work like a mortal's mind, even when it works like a mortal's mind.
Um... howzat work again?
Let's look at it this way: a robot and a human might both have hands. They may both have fingers. They may both be able to reach out, grab things, and pick them up. Depending on the complexity of the robot, there may be sensory elements that teach it not to crush whatever it's picking up. Perhaps said robot has a large scale suite of computations that indicate proper behavior and protocol when dealing with a various things, hence, when picking up a tea cup, it 'knows' to lift it's pinky up... just like a human .
But the robot hand, for all its similarities, does not work like a human hand. There is no robot hand that works like a human hand. Similar effects? Sure. Similar results? Often. Similar processes to achieve? Nope. At least, not really.
That said, making robots more human-like is, in many ways, often one of our primary goals when dealing with them. Hence we keep refining AI, we keep working on those hands, and we keep building ever-better devices that come ever-closer to being human-like.
In a similar way, a mortal and a deity do not think the same way. They both have minds, both have 'sentience', both have ability scores (well, probably*), both have limits to them, and both churn out similar-seeming results when run through their paces.
But that's where the similarity ends. It's the underlying structure that's vastly different.
In fact, let me make this statement: in my mind, at least, regardless of how similar a god and mortal are on the outside, as the underlying workings of a deity become ever more divine, it doesn't matter what the god is, by holding the element of divine, they are inherently superior. Yes, I said that a god is a higher category of being. Mortals and divine are not created equal. Hence, divinity, by its nature, is worthy of honor and veneration. This does not follow that by virtue of being divine a deity cannot receive rejection or opposition from mortals: in fact, it's a moral certitude that some deities must receive rejection and opposition from mortals. However, that does not equate to disrespect, dishonor, or a lack of worship**. Okay, that's another tangent down^.
So, gods are inherently worthy^, because divine, and mortals and gods, despite having similar basics and outward appearances, are not, in the end, working the same way^. Also TL lives up to his name. Check.
So... what does this have to do with pleniscience?
Quite frankly, the short version is that it's a sensory element of divine mental capacity can handle but mortal capacity of otherwise similar structure cannot.
So let me put it like this: attention deficit aside, it's really hard for a person to consciously concentrate on more than one thing at a time. When we do so, all the things we're concentrating one tend to suffer. We can't type out a pointlessly large post as coherently when we're trying to watch The Lego Movie, for example - one or both of those activities will suffer***.
In truth, we can't actually split our attention 'simultaneously': it would be more accurate^ to say that we rapidly oscillate between film and typing attempt***.
And yet... we do plenty of things simultaneously all the time! Heartbeat! (Man, would it suck to need to focus to keep that going!) Digestion! (That would probably be a really boring and gross period of inner meditation.) Hearing! Seeing! Feeling! Tasting! Chemical-creation! All this and much more is kept in check and accomplished without our conscious effort, much of it due to our brain^ and nervous system: the same one that doesn't work very well if we focus on too many things at once^.
And then... then there's the third option. The semi-conscious stuff. Blinking. Breathing. Typing. Absentmindedly scratching a mosquito bite because the nasty little devils apparently infest Orlando and bite the tar out of everything there, even when you're just trying to enjoy a family vacation, not that I'm bitter, and that's probably TMI and off-topic rolled into one.
So... where does pleniscience factor in? All of the above.
While mortal minds constantly receive and process sensory information, outside of disorders (like Autism^), we mostly tend to tune it all out. To do otherwise would be to do way too much: our conscious couldn't process it, and it'd slow us down, cause a major SYSTEM ERROR, and we'd tend to shut down and be extremely distant (we know this because we can study those of us that don't filter those sensory processes). This is part of sentience and sensory input.
The first trick^ with pleniscience is that it is a sentience that functions without the filters. It doesn't matter what a god is perceiving, s/he can handle it.
It's probably a good idea to give a minor word lesson .
It's not because you guys are dumb or uneducated or anything: it's because I'm an arrogant self-aggrandizing wind-bag who likes to preach to those who may already know something, and it's quite possible that I coined the term pleniscience, after reading the relatively recent Schlock Mercenary comic which talked about plenipotence, hence you guys wouldn't automatically know it.
Pleniscience: invested with or possessing full knowledge.
"Uh, okay, thanks TL, that's... not really informative. 'Full knowledge' of what, exactly?" Why, their portfolio of course!
"Um... I thought only Shelyn was the only noted artist? Or are you talking business, 'cause we're reasonably sure that's Abadar."
... oh, right, PF doesn't use that and I'm full of arcane and archaic terminology. Hm, let's call it "their 'areas of concern' , their church, and their worship" i.e. the extended collected body of all that is invested within them that makes them worthy of being called a "god". That is what they have "full knowledge" of.
Hence, every aspect of their own portfolio^: they know every prayer (to them), every worshiper (of theirs, while worshiping them), every act of reverence (toward them), and every action in their name. They percieve it all as it's happening and, what's more, they can handle it; it doesn't stop them from functioning properly at all; they process all of it fully. Sarenrae could stop and tell you about that Qadiran girl who's desperately in love with that wicked orc slave and wants to redeem him, the sweet-hearted little priestess of hers now queen of a burgeoning River Kingdom, and the wonderful old man in Westcrown quietly giving out bread to the hungry, and can tell you (most everything) about them, as they almost constantly live and breathe her. She knows about that hidden sect in Rahadoum, and can sense her ancient, lost shrine in the Casmeron cities lost long ago. Yes, she is there with you for your dying breath as you pray to her, and she does perceive every spell a priest of hers casts. Yes, she's looking at and paying attention to you - you, personally, of all the people in the omniverse calling to her, have her undivided attention. As does everyone else in the omniverse calling to her. Undivided. Attention. All of 'em. At the same time. Nope: don't care that it's not possible; 'cause we're talking about a god here, not a mortal.
What's more, she doesn't just see it, as if it were some far off event way down the street, or something she 'experiences' through a television or scrying effect. No, due to her plenipresence, she's actually, truly, literally there^. Yes, she is by your bedside as you pass on. Yes, she is there to greet you when you arrive. Yes, she's there when a new child is born under the sun and consecrated to her. Yes, she's watching as the poor and uneducated sacrifice small animals in her name - a name that they don't even know. She is, in fact, there, at all of the "theres" there are, at the same time, though her physical core is not.
But she doesn't hear their prayers to Iomedae, nor does she know about their secret desires for Calistria (well, she might, depending on how much effort she puts into finding out), for those things are, much as they would be to most others, 'blanks' in her pleniscience: the worshiper or action is not devoted to her at that time, and thus she doesn't automatically see it (though nothing is stopping her from learning it like normal). This is similar to an intimate or other lover: when you are at the store, and they are home, or they are at work while you're at the playground with your child, you are apart doing different things, and thus you don't know what they're up to or how they're doing. However, if there are enough of these 'blanks' in the information she receives/time spent with her, she's certainly going to start taking notice, and probably going to do something, if she deems it serious enough.
But... a deity can't exactly act on everything they receive. While deities are powerful, they are finite in Golarion. There is a physical^ body, and it resides Hence, they have relatively strict limits to their ultimate abilities, just as all creatures do. Unrivaled in their portfolio^, perhaps^, but incapable^ of acting on everything^ at the same time.
Thus, one of the primary tasks of a deity is coordination and delegation. They command their legions of angels, their zealous clerics and paladins, and their cursed-with-awesome oracles to act on all the things they see, hear, and know.
And see, due to their pleniscience and plenipresence, they're... um... well, I had something to put here, but then I added one additional note, and added a few references to it. Now I've no idea what I was going to type. Given it's 3:30 AM where I am, and everyone's asleep but me, and I want to be asleep, I'mma gonna crash.
Also, I'm fairly sure the above is incomprehensible.
Maybe more tomorro- *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-schnoooooorrreee-zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!*
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^ Sort of.
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Well there's at least one incomplete sentence in there, but I'm pretty sure I got the gist of it. :)
oh, intellectus varies widely by the entity, no doubt about it.
Demonreach has intellectus about anything happening on its island.
Andariel can listen and see from any shadow.
The archangels, and presumable the Crones of the Fey, can learn anything they want to learn about. They just have to know what they want to learn.
We still don't know how Odin gains his information, but I'd be willing to bet 'anything under the sky' would encompass it fairly well.
==Aelryinth
In fact, let me make this statement: in my mind, at least, regardless of how similar a god and mortal are on the outside, as the underlying workings of a deity become ever more divine, it doesn't matter what the god is, by holding the element of divine, they are inherently superior. Yes, I said that a god is a higher category of being. Mortals and divine are not created equal. Hence, divinity, by its nature, is worthy of honor and veneration. This does not follow that by virtue of being divine a deity cannot receive rejection or opposition from mortals: in fact, it's a moral certitude that some deities must receive rejection and opposition from mortals. However, that does not equate to disrespect, dishonor, or a lack of worship**. Okay, that's another tangent down^.
So, gods are inherently worthy^, because divine, and mortals and gods, despite having similar basics and outward appearances, are not, in the end, working the same way^. Also TL lives up to his name. Check.
Superior in what way? That matters.
Do not worship or honor Rovagug. Do not do it. He is an insane CE apocalypse beast.
Gods are powerful, far more powerful than mortals in many ways. A mortal though can be superior to various gods in certain ways too. A good mortal is morally superior to an evil deity.
I would argue that Pathfinder divinity by its nature is not of itself worthy of honor and veneration.
Lack of worship and honor seems quite appropriate in consideration of various Pathfinder gods.
"Uh, okay, thanks TL, that's... not really informative. 'Full knowledge' of what, exactly?" Why, their portfolio of course!
"Um... I thought only Shelyn was the only noted artist? Or are you talking business, 'cause we're reasonably sure that's Abadar."
... oh, right, PF doesn't use that and I'm full of arcane and archaic terminology. Hm, let's call it "their 'areas of concern' to use the PF terminology, their church, and their worship" i.e. the extended collected body of all that is invested within them that makes them worthy of being called a "god". That is what they have "full knowledge" of.
The entire idea of a portfolio, area of concern, and similar, is actually heavily related to the nature of worship, divinity, and how those are tied together. As I've said before, in a worship-fueled divinity system you have your three different elements that determine the over-all impact of worship: belief (passive/acceptance), worship (action/purposeful), and salience (importance/prominence). In the Golarion dynamic, I'd suggest the 'areas of concern' are limited by the potency of the deity, effectively they have 'limited room' for their pleniscience, and thus can't actually have too many areas of concern, less they overload themselves, like me, uh, I mean people who are definitely not me, and thus don't have plenty of time for everything. :D
Hence, every aspect of their own portfolio^: they know every prayer (to them), every worshiper (of theirs, while worshiping them), every act of reverence (toward them), and every action in their name. They percieve it all as it's happening and, what's more, they can handle it; it doesn't stop them from functioning properly at all; they process all of it fully. Sarenrae could stop and tell you about that Qadiran girl who's desperately in love with that wicked orc slave and wants to redeem him, the sweet-hearted little priestess of hers now queen of a burgeoning River Kingdom, and the wonderful old man in Westcrown quietly giving out bread to the hungry, and can tell you (most everything) about them, as they almost constantly live and breathe her. She knows about that hidden sect in Rahadoum, and can sense her ancient, lost shrine in the Casmeron cities lost long ago. Yes, she is there with you for your dying breath as you pray to her, and she does perceive every spell a priest of hers casts. Yes, she's looking at and paying attention to you - you, personally, of all the people in the omniverse calling to her, have her undivided attention. As does everyone else in the omniverse calling to her. Undivided. Attention. All of 'em. At the same time. Nope: don't care that it's not possible; 'cause we're talking about a god here, not a mortal.
What's more, she doesn't just see it, as if it were some far off event way down the street, or something she 'experiences' through a television or scrying effect. No, due to her plenipresence, she's actually, truly, literally there^. Yes, she is by your bedside as you pass on. Yes, she is there to greet you when you arrive. Yes, she's there when a new child is born under the sun and consecrated to her. Yes, she's watching as the poor and uneducated sacrifice small animals in her name - a name that they don't even know. She is, in fact, there, at all of the "theres" there are, at the same time, though her physical core is not.
But she doesn't hear their prayers to Iomedae, nor does she know about their secret desires for Calistria (well, she might, depending on how much effort she puts into finding out), for those things are, much as they would be to most others, 'blanks' in her pleniscience: the worshiper or action is not devoted to her at that time, and thus she doesn't automatically see it (though nothing is stopping her from learning it like normal). This is similar to an intimate or other lover: when you are at the store, and they are home, or they are at work while you're at the playground with your child, you are apart doing different things, and thus you don't know what they're up to or how they're doing. However, if there are enough of these 'blanks' in the information she receives/time spent with her, she's certainly going to start taking notice, and probably going to do something, if she deems it serious enough.
That's mostly how it works in 3.0 Deities and Demigods, they get limited omniscience in their areas of concern.
Not so much when they are worshipping a god or doing something in its name but when they are interacting with the god's portfolio. So Pelor sees everything under the Sun, Odin sees all battles, deaths, and workings of magic, and Hades sees everything underground or around riches.
This creates a mismatch with many standard myths though. Going to a god's oracle gets you answers, not answers limited to their area of concern. In many stories gods have no such direct knowledge of their portfolio.
Odin sits on Hlidskaf his seeing throne and sends out Hugin and Munin his ravens to get information for him. He calls up dead witches with his magic to learn a prophecy of the future, he sacrifices himself to himself to gain magical knowledge, he travels in disguise to see things for himself. He doesn't just know things in his area of concern because he is the sky god of battle, death, rulership, and magic.
Loki, the god of trickery does not see he is being tricked when he visits Utgard Loki.
Demeter does not see when Persephone is abducted from a field of growing plants.
Myths vary widely in how much a god perceives. In many they are beings who perceive what is around them like other beings unless they have specific powers like Heimdal's super senses. In others they look over mortal events and actions from afar and seem closer to having omniscience.
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Myths vary widely in how much a god perceives. In many they are beings who perceive what is around them like other beings unless they have specific powers like Heimdal's super senses. In others they look over mortal events and actions from afar and seem closer to having omniscience.
This goes along nicely with the classic concepts of "sacrifices before battles" to get a god's favor.
Since it seems the gods are preoccupied with countless things, mortals have to do little activities to draw attention upon themselves. The bigger or more valiant/despicable the activity, the more likely divine attention will be bared on them.
It also reminds me of many greek epic movies where the gods are "playing" with chess piece representations of the heroes in their miniature arena. Meanwhile, their attention is not on the rest of creation.
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Sarenrae being older then Asmodeus?...now that is an interesting thought! thank youyeah...going on the Book of the Damned, Sarenrae is really old, almost as old as Asmodeus, and was probably one of the first angels.If not older than him!!!
The fact that she's got more class than to get in a bickering contest with Asmodeus over who's older should not be ignored...
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The fact that she's got more class than to get in a bickering contest with Asmodeus over who's older should not be ignored...Sarenrae being older then Asmodeus?...now that is an interesting thought! thank youyeah...going on the Book of the Damned, Sarenrae is really old, almost as old as Asmodeus, and was probably one of the first angels.If not older than him!!!
Besides, who's going to be the one to bring up a lady's age?
Hey! Maybe that's what happened to Aroden! *ducks*
My biggest beef with Sarenrae is that myself and everyone at my table went to school with a girl named Sara Ray. So if Sarenrae ever gets brought up I never hear the end of 'Paladins of Sara Ray' jokes.
Now that I have had some time to think about this topic some more, I remembered that as part of official Golarion religion lore, Torag (and possibly other LG deities -- Torag is the only one I can remember for certain) consider Sarenrae's forgiveness to be a weakness, to the point of being a major fault of hers. It seems highly likely that they would say THAT is what lets corrupt parts of her church to thrive, and this might even have some truth to it.