So I guess my new question is, if you take the feats, do you get +1 hp OR +1 Skill point, AND the FCB? Because the feat give you both the skill point and the HP. So can you switch it up?
If you take the feat and trait then trait gives you the skill point and hit point, and the feat allows you to take the AFCB.
If you only take the feat then you have to choose the 1hp and 1sp OR the AFCB, but you are only locked into either choice for your entire career.
So my fighter can apply the FCB to rogue talents?
Since the +1/6 Rogue Talent is the FCB for taking levels in Rogue, no you can't.
You do have to take the class that actually provides access to the FCB.
So my fighter can apply the FCB to rogue talents?
I don't see any correlation there.
The trait looks like its about the same as the feat... which isn't surprising because campaign traits are usually pretty good and the feat is pretty bad
So I guess my new question is, if you take the feats, do you get +1 hp OR +1 Skill point, AND the FCB? Because the feat give you both the skill point and the HP. So can you switch it up?
Normally, when you take a level in your favoured class, you choose between: (+1 Hit point) OR (+1 Skill point) OR (Alternate Class Bonus). You only get to choose one and you make the choice again every time you take a level in the the class, so you could take the Hp one level, the Sp the next, and an ACB the level after.
With the Fast Learner feat, the choice you make every level becomes: (+1 Hit point AND +1 Skill point) OR (Alternate Class Bonus). The Hp and Sp together are one choice, and the ACB is the other choice. Again, you only get to choose one and you make the choice again every time you take a level in the class, so you could take the Hp and the Sp one level, and an ACB the next level.
The Finding Your Kin trait gives you +1 Hit point and +1 Skill point in addition to whatever you pick. The trait works the same way regardless of whether or not you have Fast Learner. You pick your Favoured Class Bonus, then get the trait bonus in addition. Fast Learner does not allow you to alter the bonus given by Finding you Kin.
So my fighter can apply the FCB to rogue talents?
You can not increase/boost/improve/etc what you do not have. A first level rogue has the same access to rogue talents as a first level fighter does. That is why you should have to wait until 2nd level.It is not a rule I would enforce, but it does fall in line with the reasoning behind the oracle ruling.
IF choosing a class feature’s effective level to increase, then you must have the class feature.
I am not chosing a class features effective level to increase. So it does not follow that i need the class feature.
Way I see it is he would get a slot, but then have no way to fill it.
So I guess my new question is, if you take the feats, do you get +1 hp OR +1 Skill point, AND the FCB? Because the feat give you both the skill point and the HP. So can you switch it up?
Normally, when you take a level in your favoured class, you choose between: (+1 Hit point) OR (+1 Skill point) OR (Alternate Class Bonus). You only get to choose one and you make the choice again every time you take a level in the the class, so you could take the Hp one level, the Sp the next, and an ACB the level after.
With the Fast Learner feat, the choice you make every level becomes: (+1 Hit point AND +1 Skill point) OR (Alternate Class Bonus). The Hp and Sp together are one choice, and the ACB is the other choice. Again, you only get to choose one and you make the choice again every time you take a level in the class, so you could take the Hp and the Sp one level, and an ACB the next level.
The Finding Your Kin trait gives you +1 Hit point and +1 Skill point in addition to whatever you pick. The trait works the same way regardless of whether or not you have Fast Learner. You pick your Favoured Class Bonus, then get the trait bonus in addition. Fast Learner does not allow you to alter the bonus given by Finding you Kin.
Yeah that does not make sense. Without the feat they are saying that +1hp = +1 skill = +1 FCB.
You are saying that if I spend a feat for a bonus that feat turns the math into this:+1hp = +1 skill = +1/2 FCB.
Meaning I spend a feat for net a loss.
To be fair most the rogue talents suck. So if you want to waste traits and feats to gain access to more crappy rogue talents, well be my guess. Now applying your little rules looping to the Human FCB for sorcerers...that gets good.
Rogue talent: ninja trick: forgotten trick.
Rogue talent Ki pool.Now you can take any combat feat for the cost of 2 ki (1 if you get a ki ring)
2 feats gives you ALL the Combat feats in the game.
Combat? Lol. And Im pretty sure its one per ki point. Lol and its rounds per level? Thats adorable. I have spells. Wait whats that I won already?To be fair most the rogue talents suck. So if you want to waste traits and feats to gain access to more crappy rogue talents, well be my guess. Now applying your little rules looping to the Human FCB for sorcerers...that gets good.Rogue talent: ninja trick: forgotten trick.
Rogue talent Ki pool.Now you can take any combat feat for the cost of 2 ki (1 if you get a ki ring)
2 feats gives you ALL the Combat feats in the game.
Sigh.
rd 1 poison gas bomb VS wizard with low con. Wiz asleep Coup de grass.
And you know where this wizard is how? Not too mention my real body is probably hidden somewhere and I have contingency on me to teleport myself away the instant I unwillingly fall unconscious.Combat? Lol. And Im pretty sure its one per ki point. Lol and its rounds per level? Thats adorable. I have spells. Wait whats that I won already?To be fair most the rogue talents suck. So if you want to waste traits and feats to gain access to more crappy rogue talents, well be my guess. Now applying your little rules looping to the Human FCB for sorcerers...that gets good.Rogue talent: ninja trick: forgotten trick.
Rogue talent Ki pool.Now you can take any combat feat for the cost of 2 ki (1 if you get a ki ring)
2 feats gives you ALL the Combat feats in the game.
Sigh.
rd 1 poison gas bomb VS wizard with low con. Wiz asleep Coup de grass.
I can literally do everything a wizard of equal lv can do + I have other abilities. if you are a 20th lv caster so am I, I would have access to less spells, but I could still cast 9th. and thanks to traits and feats my caster lv would still be 20th. I of course would have sneak att damage added to my spells and attacks. I can scry and teleport, and summon, and have contingencies. AND have access to every combat feat. and ninja skill, and poison. In a straight fight.... Sorry dude. you lose.
All the material I quoted was from a pathfinder book or website. I generally ignore 3rd party stuff or old 3.5 stuff. Unless it has been updated specifically for pathfinder. Which in this case it has. Also I am unconvinced that the wording of the feat says what you think it does, the use of "or" can be taken 2 ways. Also it works for the trait.
EDIT: what I mean to say is that or with no comma, is inclusive to the group. In this case all 3 options are included divided by "or" with no period or coma to...
Required trait:
Finding Your Kin
First off, You're not using official sources. That trait is only called that on the PFSRD which is not an official source.
You're trying to split hairs here. People have showed you that you are interpreting this wrong. Are you also arguing with you GM that you can attack while dead, because you know, where in the death condition does it say I can't attack...
What wizard has a low con? Seriously its like the shelves are stocked with manuals of bodily health or something.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
I can literally do everything a wizard of equal lv can do + I have other abilities. if you are a 20th lv caster so am I, I would have access to less spells, but I could still cast 9th. and thanks to traits and feats my caster lv would still be 20th. I of course would have sneak att damage added to my spells and attacks. I can scry and teleport, and summon, and have contingencies. AND have access to every combat feat. and ninja skill, and poison. In a straight fight.... Sorry dude. you lose.
I admit to a morbid curiosity as to what tortured rules interpretation leads you down this path. I'm not even sure how you're getting poison bombs from an extra combat feat.
|
I can literally do everything a wizard of equal lv can do + I have other abilities. if you are a 20th lv caster so am I, I would have access to less spells, but I could still cast 9th. and thanks to traits and feats my caster lv would still be 20th. I of course would have sneak att damage added to my spells and attacks. I can scry and teleport, and summon, and have contingencies. AND have access to every combat feat. and ninja skill, and poison. In a straight fight.... Sorry dude. you lose.
What?
Is this a Rogue/Ninja?
Are you stating, in this line, that a 20th level Wizard is "easily defeated" by this Rogue/Ninja?
I call shenanigans.
I can literally do everything a wizard of equal lv can do + I have other abilities. if you are a 20th lv caster so am I, I would have access to less spells, but I could still cast 9th. and thanks to traits and feats my caster lv would still be 20th. I of course would have sneak att damage added to my spells and attacks. I can scry and teleport, and summon, and have contingencies. AND have access to every combat feat. and ninja skill, and poison. In a straight fight.... Sorry dude. you lose.I admit to a morbid curiosity as to what tortured rules interpretation leads you down this path. I'm not even sure how you're getting poison bombs from an extra combat feat.
Forgotten trick lets you use any ninja trick including poison bomb. However I use alchemy to make a smoke bomb and add poison to it with the 3rd lv rogue/poisoner ability either way works.
3rd lv rogue/poisoner
7th lv wizard/conjurer/teleportation school
10th lv trickster
trait: magical knack for +2 caster lvs
Feat: Ki infusion +1 caster lv (more if needed)
Feat: perfect style to give you some ki (there is also a rogue talent but I wanted the energy resistance as well)
Feat: Forgotten trick lets you use any other feat for 2 ki, + any ki that trick might use.
Bonded item Wiz ring (which you can upgrade without any feats to a ring of ki mastery) making the cost of using ki 1 less
Skill: Alchemy to go with poisons and to help craft bombs and other useful items (wyroot).
Spring sheaths in combination with Throwing stars and the underhanded talent, allows for max sneak attack damage. ninja invisibility (swift action) trickster imp invisibility (free action)
ninja flurry of stars ability + 2 weapon fighting +rapid shot + poison+ sneak attack, means a lot of damage potential. (throw in a remembered combat feat like arcane strike and/or deadly aim for a few rds of extra damage)
I have a LOT of tricks and combinations but really I made this character to be diverse more than powerful he is half elf so he can use the paragon surge spell to add another feat (any feat he qualifies for) for the duration of that spell as well.
His back story is that he was a simulacrum, so I love the idea that he can take a few seconds to access old memories and duplicate a feat that is appropriate to the situation.
None of that breaks or even bends any rules, it's just interesting combinations. I have not implemented anything unusual in this build yet. I probably wont need to.
I recognize he would have been more powerful as a ninja/Wizard/trickster (extra attacks and better ki pool) but it did not quite fit his style. And now the new Magus with a back stab ability of his own, would probably be more powerful short term but I like 7th lv + spells.
I can literally do everything a wizard of equal lv can do + I have other abilities. if you are a 20th lv caster so am I, I would have access to less spells, but I could still cast 9th. and thanks to traits and feats my caster lv would still be 20th. I of course would have sneak att damage added to my spells and attacks. I can scry and teleport, and summon, and have contingencies. AND have access to every combat feat. and ninja skill, and poison. In a straight fight.... Sorry dude. you lose.What?
Is this a Rogue/Ninja?
Are you stating, in this line, that a 20th level Wizard is "easily defeated" by this Rogue/Ninja?
I call shenanigans.
No Rogue3/Wiz7/Trickster10 Caster lv 20 :p
So, this optimized build, is it going against an optimized 20th level Wizard?
A straight Wizard VS my build.
Wizard: Cast up to 9th lv spells. 20th caster lv. Metamagic feats.
Markus build: Cast up to 9th lv spells (admittedly not quite as many). 20th caster lv. Metamagic feats (+ 2 free ones still and silent spell). Rogue talents. 7D6 backstab that can be added to spell damage. Access to poisons (and able to change how they work injury to inhaled to contact etc) Access to all combat feats to fit any situation.
In the end with spells it's all about preparation, permanency and magic item creation... But I think that my combo can basically trump a wizard, if for no other reason that he can do everything the wizard can plus a little bit more. :)
Edit: because of the "transformation" spell and the ability to use inv and imp invisibility while in that state (and thus get sneak attack damage) he could probably take a fighter/warrior type as well...
For some needed clarification: Here it says:
Forgotten Trick (Ex): A ninja with this ability can recall one trick taught to her by her ancient masters. When she uses this ability, she selects one ninja trick (not a master trick or rogue talent) that she does not know and can use that ninja trick for a number of rounds equal to her level. She must pay any ki costs associated with the trick as normal. Using this ability expends 2 ki point from her ki pool, plus the ki cost of the trick she chooses.
Note it does not say class level or ninja level. I take that to mean that it implies total character level, as in almost every other spot in the books it specifies class level when it means class level.
What do you guys think?
Blur ruins Sneak Attack.
Your tactics are ruined by Emergency Force Sphere, Life Bubble, and various others.
I can counter or dispel those spells. everything is ruined by something. There is a counter to everything. I never claimed perfection, I claimed to have an edge.
Edit: also there is a combat feat that I can take that allows me to sneak attack someone with concealment...thoguh I forget the name at the moment...
2nd Edit: at worst even if my sneak attack is blocked, I am then at even odds with a spellcaster who has the same abilities.
Default is level of relevant class, granting the class feature.
Any class feature based off total character level, is usually an exception to the rule, and is noted as such.
Is there a rule somewhere in the books that shows what the "default" is?
Edit: I just want to know so I can read it, not because I doubt you.
|
|
I can counter or dispel those spells. everything is ruined by something. There is a counter to everything. I never claimed perfection, I claimed to have an edge.Blur ruins Sneak Attack.
Your tactics are ruined by Emergency Force Sphere, Life Bubble, and various others.
I find edge only exists against a non-optimized Wizard.
In fact, much of what you describe, as "an edge" requires the full Wizard to be unprepared, whilst the listed build being given time to prepare.
It's not bad, but I feel that at best, the build can put a good fight, and even win.
Certainly, not as easily as you make it out to be.
I can counter or dispel those spells. everything is ruined by something. There is a counter to everything. I never claimed perfection, I claimed to have an edge.Blur ruins Sneak Attack.
Your tactics are ruined by Emergency Force Sphere, Life Bubble, and various others.
I find edge only exists against a non-optimized Wizard.
In fact, much of what you describe, as "an edge" requires the full Wizard to be unprepared, whilst the listed build being given time to prepare.
It's not bad, but I feel that at best, the build can put a good fight, and even win.
Certainly, not as easily as you make it out to be.
I dont understand why you think I wont be "optimized" as a wizard. I can do everything I said, and still match the "optimized" wizard build. (not exactly, but close enough for it not to matter) I am not saying you are wrong, I just dont see the big difference.
EDIT: moreover my build works at every lv 1-20. At no point in that journey will a wizard be able to over match me.
No Rogue3/Wiz7/Trickster10 Caster lv 20 :p
How again are you getting extra rogue talents with FCB again? You can only take extra rogue talent FCB if rogue is your Favorite class, and you only have 3 levels of rogue.
No Rogue3/Wiz7/Trickster10 Caster lv 20 :pHow again are you getting extra rogue talents with FCB again? You can only take extra rogue talent FCB if rogue is your Favorite class, and you only have 3 levels of rogue.
I am not doing that in this build, we sort of derailed the thread.
I was only going to try it with a human rogue. Though based on my original theory, that everyone disagrees with (in spite of what is "technically" written) If the +1 skill and +1 hp and FCB are interchangeable (the way the rules say they are) then you get 4/6 which is the same as 2/3 levels.
But like I said that was unnecessary for this build.
I can literally do everything a wizard of equal lv can do + I have other abilities. if you are a 20th lv caster so am I, I would have access to less spells, but I could still cast 9th. and thanks to traits and feats my caster lv would still be 20th. I of course would have sneak att damage added to my spells and attacks. I can scry and teleport, and summon, and have contingencies. AND have access to every combat feat. and ninja skill, and poison. In a straight fight.... Sorry dude. you lose.
The above comment was about the rogue/ninja build. The build you followed it up with had 17 levels of arcane caster in it. Anything with 17 caster levels is going to be powerful. How did you jump from Rogue/ninja with every combat feat to Arcane Trickster in the same argument to defend your position?
Im confused and must have missed something along the way.
At no point in that journey will a wizard be able to over match me.I just don't see that.
I know your build is optimized, but what is this enemy Wizard optimized to do?
Well 1-3 rogue is equal to 1-3 Wizard. After that the wizard will have access to 1 lv higher spells, but the trickster will have access to all kinds of other abilities that balances it out, or makes it even better..depending.
As for the optimization, my point is that whatever the wizard decides to optimize for, the trickster can have also made the same build, or close to it. Thus no advantage for the wizard. Sorry i think I am having trouble explaining it... ill try one more example.
Wizard chooses build xyz it involves components xyz. Trickster chooses the same build xyz but he can only use components x and z and a little bit of y. They are almost equal. But Trickster gets a host of other abilities that the wizard has no access to at all.
So the advantage would go to the trickster IMO.
I can literally do everything a wizard of equal lv can do + I have other abilities. if you are a 20th lv caster so am I, I would have access to less spells, but I could still cast 9th. and thanks to traits and feats my caster lv would still be 20th. I of course would have sneak att damage added to my spells and attacks. I can scry and teleport, and summon, and have contingencies. AND have access to every combat feat. and ninja skill, and poison. In a straight fight.... Sorry dude. you lose.The above comment was about the rogue/ninja build. The build you followed it up with had 17 levels of arcane caster in it. Anything with 17 caster levels is going to be powerful. How did you jump from Rogue/ninja with every combat feat to Arcane Trickster in the same argument to defend your position?
Im confused and must have missed something along the way.
Sorry someone else jumped in on the argument and it got switched up.
I 100% agree that a wizard will trump a non-castor (caster?)
I 100% agree that a wizard will trump a non-castor (caster?)
Now we are making sense =)