12 free rogue talents?


Advice

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

This can work with a multi-classed half elf, but it works best with a human Rogue.

Required trait:
Finding Your Kin

Choose: an NPC and a class.

Benefit The chosen class is always a favored class to you, and your dedication to it is such that every time you take a level in the class, you gain +1 hit point and 1 additional skill point over and above what you would normally gain. If multiple PCs take this trait, they should be siblings who were both protected and raised by the chosen NPC.

Required feat:

Fast Learner (Human)
You progress gain extra versatility.

Prerequisites: Int 13, human.

Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.

Favored class option (Rogue):

The rogue gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent.

But in effect you are getting +4/6 meaning you get 4 extra rogue talents every 6 levels.

Or did I miss something?

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

You can't actually use Fast Learner to choose the Alternate Favored Class Bonus and an extra HP, SP, or AFCB. Because it says

Fast Learner wrote:
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.

Which implies it is a package deal. Either +1 HP&SP, or +1 FCB. There is a Dev post somewhere on the issue.

Sczarni

The Trait only gives you +1 SP or +1 HP. It doesn't give you the option for an alternate Favored Class Bonus.


The feat never says it gives you an additional AFCB. It is only saying you get the FCB or the hit points plus the skill points.

Normally you have to choose skills, hit points, or AFCB.


Also, the intent is obvious that you're supposed to have Rogue Talents to use that FCB, and some GMs won't allow that level of cheesing of the rules.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Also, that trait is the pfsrd "stripped" version of Finding Haleen, a campaign trait for Legacy of Fire. It was actually written for 3.5 as LoF was a 3.5 AP, and so its balance in Pathfinder is iffy. Many GMs won't allow campaign traits that don't match the current campaign.

I suppose with both the trait and the feat you'd still net a +2 hp and +2 skill points per level, which is not bad.


Cheapy wrote:
Also, the intent is obvious that you're supposed to have Rogue Talents to use that FCB, and some GMs won't allow that level of cheesing of the rules.

While I agree with you all that it was not the "intent" to do what I propose. And that as a GM you would have to consider balance before allowing it... (I personally would reward the innovation with at least one free feat)

I would like you to consider that my counter argument is coming from a LE outside the box thinker. I am therefore not interested in the spirit of the rule, but more what I can get away with by directly interpreting that rule as it is written.

So i present this argument, which directly counters your assumption with a rule.

"Each race page includes a set of alternative benefits that characters of that race may choose instead of the normal benefits for their favored class. Thus, rather than taking an extra hit point or an extra skill rank, players may choose for their characters to gain the benefit listed here. This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them."

Sczarni

Since you mentioned LE, I'll go ahead and point out the technicality that you can't choose that particular Favored Class Bonus until level 2, when the Rogue Talent class feature becomes available.

Just as Human Barbarians can't choose the Superstition bonus at level 1, and Aasimar Oracles can't enhance a revelation they wouldn't gain until higher levels.

But that's the extreme end of nit picky, and I'm not Chelaxian.


Nefreet wrote:

Since you mentioned LE, I'll go ahead and point out the technicality that you can't choose that particular Favored Class Bonus until level 2, when the Rogue Talent class feature becomes available.

Just as Human Barbarians can't choose the Superstition bonus at level 1, and Aasimar Oracles can't enhance a revelation they wouldn't gain until higher levels.

But that's the extreme end of nit picky, and I'm not Chelaxian.

Yes but the character in question is lv 9 and you can retroactively go back and change things, even if you did not qualify for them at the time. It just takes time and money ;)


Again, I cannot stress this enough, I am gaming the system. I know that I am. But it is that characters nature to strive for every ounce of power possible.
He also took the ninja trick "Forgotten Trick" and "Perfect Style" for the ki so that he can use any combat feat as a swift action for a cost of 2 ki (1 ki with the use of his ring of ki mastery)

Then there is the spell paragon surge which allows you to pick any feat you qualify for, and use it for 1 min per lv......

tee hee.....

Sczarni

-Markus- wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Since you mentioned LE, I'll go ahead and point out the technicality that you can't choose that particular Favored Class Bonus until level 2, when the Rogue Talent class feature becomes available.

Just as Human Barbarians can't choose the Superstition bonus at level 1, and Aasimar Oracles can't enhance a revelation they wouldn't gain until higher levels.

But that's the extreme end of nit picky, and I'm not Chelaxian.

Yes but the character in question is lv 9 and you can retroactively go back and change things, even if you did not qualify for them at the time. It just takes time and money ;)

You can't retrain Favored Class Bonuses, though.


Nefreet wrote:
-Markus- wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Since you mentioned LE, I'll go ahead and point out the technicality that you can't choose that particular Favored Class Bonus until level 2, when the Rogue Talent class feature becomes available.

Just as Human Barbarians can't choose the Superstition bonus at level 1, and Aasimar Oracles can't enhance a revelation they wouldn't gain until higher levels.

But that's the extreme end of nit picky, and I'm not Chelaxian.

Yes but the character in question is lv 9 and you can retroactively go back and change things, even if you did not qualify for them at the time. It just takes time and money ;)
You can't retrain Favored Class Bonuses, though.

Pretty sure I read that you can, but regardless they are retroactive.

EDIT: Truthfully my head is swimming with rules right now so I may be in error... Ill look it up later :)

Liberty's Edge

-Markus- wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Also, the intent is obvious that you're supposed to have Rogue Talents to use that FCB, and some GMs won't allow that level of cheesing of the rules.

While I agree with you all that it was not the "intent" to do what I propose. And that as a GM you would have to consider balance before allowing it... (I personally would reward the innovation with at least one free feat)

I would like you to consider that my counter argument is coming from a LE outside the box thinker. I am therefore not interested in the spirit of the rule, but more what I can get away with by directly interpreting that rule as it is written.

So i present this argument, which directly counters your assumption with a rule.

"Each race page includes a set of alternative benefits that characters of that race may choose instead of the normal benefits for their favored class. Thus, rather than taking an extra hit point or an extra skill rank, players may choose for their characters to gain the benefit listed here. This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them."

That's the general rule. The other stuff trumps that as it is a specific rule. But as was pointed out, the material you're drawing from is from 3.5, not Pathfinder.


ShadowcatX wrote:
-Markus- wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Also, the intent is obvious that you're supposed to have Rogue Talents to use that FCB, and some GMs won't allow that level of cheesing of the rules.

While I agree with you all that it was not the "intent" to do what I propose. And that as a GM you would have to consider balance before allowing it... (I personally would reward the innovation with at least one free feat)

I would like you to consider that my counter argument is coming from a LE outside the box thinker. I am therefore not interested in the spirit of the rule, but more what I can get away with by directly interpreting that rule as it is written.

So i present this argument, which directly counters your assumption with a rule.

"Each race page includes a set of alternative benefits that characters of that race may choose instead of the normal benefits for their favored class. Thus, rather than taking an extra hit point or an extra skill rank, players may choose for their characters to gain the benefit listed here. This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them."

That's the general rule. The other stuff trumps that as it is a specific rule. But as was pointed out, the material you're drawing from is from 3.5, not Pathfinder.

All the material I quoted was from a pathfinder book or website. I generally ignore 3rd party stuff or old 3.5 stuff. Unless it has been updated specifically for pathfinder. Which in this case it has. Also I am unconvinced that the wording of the feat says what you think it does, the use of "or" can be taken 2 ways. Also it works for the trait.

EDIT: what I mean to say is that or with no comma, is inclusive to the group. In this case all 3 options are included divided by "or" with no period or coma to indicate any separation. Which matches the rule that they are all interchangeable.

But then English is not my first language....

Grand Lodge

In any case none of this lets you double pick or quadruple pick the FCB, so at best you are getting +1 HP, +1 SP, +1/6 rogue skills. So it's a pretty nice feat if you play all the way up to level 20. If you stop at level 7, you basically wasted most of a feat (because for the first 6 levels you had it, it did nothing for you.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:
You can't retrain Favored Class Bonuses, though.

Even though the retraining rules don't specify that you can retrain a favored class choice, I think the fact that you can retrain entire class levels makes it obvious that PART of that class level could be reselected.

Sczarni

But not level 1. It doesn't matter if you retrain every level from 20 and back again, you always have to start out at level 1. And at level 1, you don't have that class feature.

There's no way to twerk it.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Nefreet wrote:

But not level 1. It doesn't matter if you retrain every level from 20 and back again, you always have to start out at level 1. And at level 1, you don't have that class feature.

There's no way to twerk it.

I am not 100% sure I understand you, however...

To qualify for the 1/6 rogue talent favored class option for human rogues, all you need is to be human and rogue. You do not need to already have a rogue talent. Therefor there is no reason you cannot take it at level 1.

"Favored Class Options

The following favored class options are available to all characters of this race who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the favored class reward.
Rogue The rogue gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human

So at lv 1 you get 1/6 of a rogue talent. At lv 2 you get another 1/6...until at lv 6 you have 6/6=1 rogue talent.

Or at least that is how I understood it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
-Markus- wrote:

Again, I cannot stress this enough, I am gaming the system. I know that I am. But it is that characters nature to strive for every ounce of power possible.

It's not the "characters nature" Characters don't build themselves they don't read message board guides, or supplemental rules kits. it's nothing more than YOU the player trying to game the system in building the character. At least be honest about it and don't try to hide behind such flimsy excuses.


LazarX wrote:
-Markus- wrote:

Again, I cannot stress this enough, I am gaming the system. I know that I am. But it is that characters nature to strive for every ounce of power possible.

It's not the "characters nature" Characters don't build themselves they don't read message board guides, or supplemental rules kits. it's nothing more than YOU the player trying to game the system in building the character. At least be honest about it and don't try to hide behind such flimsy excuses.

Dude. I was honest about it. I came out and said it. All that I meant was that this particular character that I am playing would approve of it, were he able.

EDIT: Also I never look for ways to game the system from others. I come up with it myself or I do not use it. It's not ingenuity if you are copying someone else.

Sczarni

-Markus- wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
But not level 1. It doesn't matter if you retrain every level from 20 and back again, you always have to start out at level 1. And at level 1, you don't have that class feature.

To qualify for the 1/6 rogue talent favored class option for human rogues, all you need is to be human and rogue. You do not need to already have a rogue talent. Therefor there is no reason you cannot take it at level 1.

So at lv 1 you get 1/6 of a rogue talent. At lv 2 you get another 1/6...until at lv 6 you have 6/6=1 rogue talent.

Or at least that is how I understood it.

It stems from this post by PFS Leadership, confirming the rules from the Design Team:

John Compton wrote:

Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?

No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.

This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.

Which means Human Rangers can't start giving their pets extra skill points until level 4, Human Barbarians can't start increasing Superstition until level 2, Rogues can't start +1/6th of a Rogue Talent until level 2, etc.

It's a rule that really wasn't realized until this FAQ was answered, and outside of PFS it's not known very well. But, as John Compton noted, it's not a PFS-specific rule. It's how Pathfinder works.


Nefreet wrote:
-Markus- wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
But not level 1. It doesn't matter if you retrain every level from 20 and back again, you always have to start out at level 1. And at level 1, you don't have that class feature.

To qualify for the 1/6 rogue talent favored class option for human rogues, all you need is to be human and rogue. You do not need to already have a rogue talent. Therefor there is no reason you cannot take it at level 1.

So at lv 1 you get 1/6 of a rogue talent. At lv 2 you get another 1/6...until at lv 6 you have 6/6=1 rogue talent.

Or at least that is how I understood it.

It stems from this post by PFS Leadership, confirming the rules from the Design Team:

John Compton wrote:

Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?

No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.

This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.

Which means Human Rangers can't start giving their pets extra skill points until level 4, Human Barbarians can't start increasing Superstition until level 2, Rogues can't start +1/6th of a Rogue Talent until level 2, etc.

It's a rule that really wasn't realized until this FAQ was answered, and outside of PFS it's not known very well. But, as John Compton noted, it's not a PFS-specific rule. It's how Pathfinder works.

Fair enough,Obviously I did not have that information. But if the rule is not in the books our group does not use it in our games. So it still does not apply to me. Though even if it did it would not change very much. :)

Edit: I just wanted to add that it is not "how pathfinder works" as it is written. It might be how it was intended to work. But I am not responsible for reading a developers mind, and therefore can only play by the rules at hand. :)


-Markus- wrote:


This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.

This part cracks me up. If you say something like: "The following favored class options are available to all characters of this race who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the favored class reward."

It is not an assumption to do exactly what it says from the beginning of your character. It would be a huge assumption to do otherwise though....

Sczarni

Absolutely. As with any home game, you may rule as you wish.

But now that the rule is known, it's a Pathfinder rule. It is now written, and not just insinuated.

That's better than can be said for other unwritten rules (Read: Vestigial Arms).


Nefreet wrote:

Absolutely. As with any home game, you may rule as you wish.

But now that the rule is known, it's a Pathfinder rule. It is now written, and not just insinuated.

That's better than can be said for other unwritten rules (Read: Vestigial Arms).

For the character I have in question I will likely make the change now, as it doesn't hurt him and better to have it right I think.

I really dislike changes that are made for "balance" though. I feel like if someone spends 6 hours sifting through rules, and figuring out a way to improve his character, while staying within his theme, he deserves the bonuses he gets.
I understand that doing that might make the players who do not spend time making their characters awesome envious, but that should serve as inspiration to be creative...IMO...
I always reward ingenuity where I can, even if I can't allow the specific changes requested....

In this case I would be happy with a single bonus feat to reward my efforts :P (I hate "no you can't do that" but I think "let me offer you this instead" to be a good GMing tack )

Sczarni

Even I miss stuff, and I consider myself about as "up" as possible on the rules.

For over 6 months I was paying the wrong price for the Mossy Disk Ioun Stone. The chart in Seekers of Secrets lists it at 2500gp, so that's what I put down on my Chronicle Sheets. When I decided to link my characters' gear on my profile I saw that the website I was using had the price at 5000gp. Turns out the text in the book has one price, and the chart has another (incorrect) price.

I do feel bad when I have to tell a new player that half a dozen things are wrong with their character, but that it's not obvious stuff. This is one of those many things.


If you and your group want to go by RAI and ignore RAW that is fine, but say so up front, and if anything not written in the book counts also state that up front.

In any event nothing in the book supports your interpretation, but if your group wishes to rule that way they can. We don't really care. We just want those that come here asking questions to leave more informed than when they came. You now know the intent. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't agree that the FAQ ruling about the elf oracle bonus is the same situation as the rogue talent or magus arcana type bonuses. In the case of the Oracle favored class bonus (as ruled), you choose a specific revelation to boost with your favored class bonus. for this reason, yes, you have to have that revelation to boost.

However, for bonuses that grant 1/6 rogue talents, or 1/6 magus arcana, etc, I see no reason those cannot be taken at 1st level. Adding a rogue talent is not altering an existing class ability, it is creating one.


I think that you need to have access to talents in general, or whatever is being boosted. That however is not really the issue. The debate is about the feat which says you choose 1hp and 1sp or the AFCB, but it is not like delaying it by 1 level which is all following the rules does will have much of an impact.

PS: Having read all of this again all the OP has to do is wait until 2nd level and get the trait(which is up to the GM) to be approved at 1st level.


Sorry, I wasn't writing about the OP's question, as I feel it is simply wrong on it's base assumption. There is nothing saying that the Finding Your Kin trait has any association at all with alternate favored class bonuses. It specifically states that when you take a level in this favored class, "you gain +1 hit point and +1 skill point over and above what you would normally gain."

Regarding the Rogue Talent, it depends on how you treat the talent. Is the ability to get talents something that is 'gained' at second level, and then augmented every 2 levels after that, or is it that rogues gain +1/2 rogue talents per level? The core rules never use the 1/2 nomenclature that was introduced in the advanced class guide, so was this just a change to the nomenclature, or was it a different way to giving abilities? When you consider that there are other classes that also gain rogue talents, it makes sense that they go to a fractional notation instead of the fixed level numbers.

So, now, if we consider the rogue talent rule is 'upgraded' to 1/2 talents per level, then what happens when you decide to take the AFCB every level? There are two ways it could be interpreted:

If ruled that you CAN take the AFCB starting at first, and that its progression is separate from the base class progression:
1......
2......1 Rogue Talent
3......
4......1 Rogue Talent
5......
6......2 Rogue Talents
7......
8......1 Rogue Talent
9......
10.....1 Rogue Talent
11.....
12.....2 Rogue Talents
13.....

If ruled that you CANNOT take the AFCB starting at first, and that its progression is separate from the base class progression:
1......
2......1 Rogue Talent
3......
4......1 Rogue Talent
5......
6......1 Rogue Talent
7......1 Rogue Talent
8......1 Rogue Talent
9......
10.....1 Rogue Talent
11.....
12.....1 Rogue Talent
13.....1 Rogue Talent

If ruled that the rogue level grants you 1/2 Rogue Talent per level, and the AFCB grants you 1/6 Rogue Talent per level, then if the AFCB is taken every level, you actually gain 2/3 Rogue Talents per level:
Lvl..Acrued...
.1....(...2/3)..
.2....(1 1/3).. 1 Rogue Talent
.3....(2......).. 1 Rogue Talent
.4....(2 2/3)..
.5....(3 1/3).. 1 Rogue Talent
.6....(4......).. 1 Rogue Talent
.7....(4 2/3)..
.8....(5 1/3).. 1 Rogue Talent
.9....(6......).. 1 Rogue Talent
10...(6 2/3)..
11...(7 1/3).. 1 Rogue Talent
12...(8......).. 1 Rogue Talent
13...(8 2/3)..

by 13th level, all 3 variations have the same number of talents (8), but the latter has the smoothest progression.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

You can't gain 1/6th of a Rogue Talent at 1st level, because you don't have the Rogue Talent class feature.

The earliest you can take the 1/6th FCB is 2nd level, so the earliest you'd get your bonus Talent would be 7th level.

Just go with +1 hit point or +1 skill point for 1st level.


Nefreet wrote:

You can't gain 1/6th of a Rogue Talent at 1st level, because you don't have the Rogue Talent class feature.

The earliest you can take the 1/6th FCB is 2nd level, so the earliest you'd get your bonus Talent would be 7th level.

Just go with +1 hit point or +1 skill point for 1st level.

I don't think the analogy applies. The rogue favored class bonus is gain +1/6 of a new rogue talent.t. The aasimar bonus is to an already existing revelation. The rogue talent option isn't actually dependant on the class feature, the revelation is. Its not a class feature with a level increase, its just another class feature not dependent on level.

Heck, since there's no requirements to even have the class feature, even a rogue without talents (like a ninja) could take them.

Sczarni

The exact answer was "when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have".

A 1st level Rogue doesn't have the Rogue Talent class feature.

Grand Lodge

What is 1/6 of a Rogue talent improving?

Is not your base, that you cannot improve something you don't have?

How do those relate?


Nefreet wrote:

The exact answer was "when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have".

A 1st level Rogue doesn't have the Rogue Talent class feature.

Where does a rogue increase the effective level of their rogue talent? Rogue talents don't have effectively levels, you have rogue talents.


Nefreet wrote:

The exact answer was "when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have".

A 1st level Rogue doesn't have the Rogue Talent class feature.

That was specifically discussing the oracle's revelations, and how the favored class bonus increases the effective level used to determine the effects of a specific revelation. That would apply to the rogue talents if the favored class bonus was altering a specific rogue talent, in which case, yes, you would have to already have selected that rogue talent. however, that is NOT the case here. That FAQ does not apply to the bonus adding a rogue talent, and more than it would apply to a favored class bonus that added 1/6th of an oracle revelation (though i don't believe this exists).

Another example:
Elf/Halfling Magus - The magus gains 1/6 of a new magus arcana - can be selected at any level.
Dwarf Magus - Select one known magus arcana usable only once per day. The magus adds +1/6 to the number of times it can be used per day. Once that magus arcana is usable twice per day, the magus must select a different magus arcana. this cannot be selected unless the magus has already gained a once/day magus arcana.


@OP: Finding Your Kin does not give an extra FCB (favored class bonuse), it gives +1hp and +1 skill rank with each level of the selected favored class.

Fast Lerner doesn't give you additional FCBs, it alters your already existing FCB choises from +1hp or +1skill rank or AFCB (Alternate Favored Class Bonuses) to +1hp and +1 skill rank or AFCB.


Everyone who plays Pathfinder should learn the terms "exclusive or" and "inclusive or" from Georg Cantor's set theory notation and then we wouldn't have to have arguments like this.


wraithstrike wrote:

I think that you need to have access to talents in general, or whatever is being boosted. That however is not really the issue. The debate is about the feat which says you choose 1hp and 1sp or the AFCB, but it is not like delaying it by 1 level which is all following the rules does will have much of an impact.

PS: Having read all of this again all the OP has to do is wait until 2nd level and get the trait(which is up to the GM) to be approved at 1st level.

yeah lots of ways around it, though I agree its silly, especially when you consider a lot of feats are available based on the fact that the class allows you to get something later on.....

I quick reminder though, I quoted the txt above where it says that bonus HP, skill and FCB are interchangeable... but here it is again for you. They are interchangeable, as per this:

"Each race page includes a set of alternative benefits that characters of that race may choose instead of the normal benefits for their favored class. Thus, rather than taking an extra hit point or an extra skill rank, players may choose for their characters to gain the benefit listed here. This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them."


Errant_Epoch wrote:
Everyone who plays Pathfinder should learn the terms "exclusive or" and "inclusive or" from Georg Cantor's set theory notation and then we wouldn't have to have arguments like this.

At the very least the people who write the rules should. Without proper punctuation, you can't distinguish between them, at least in this case.


-Markus- wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I think that you need to have access to talents in general, or whatever is being boosted. That however is not really the issue. The debate is about the feat which says you choose 1hp and 1sp or the AFCB, but it is not like delaying it by 1 level which is all following the rules does will have much of an impact.

PS: Having read all of this again all the OP has to do is wait until 2nd level and get the trait(which is up to the GM) to be approved at 1st level.

yeah lots of ways around it, though I agree its silly, especially when you consider a lot of feats are available based on the fact that the class allows you to get something later on.....

I quick reminder though, I quoted the txt above where it says that bonus HP, skill and FCB are interchangeable... but here it is again for you. They are interchangeable, as per this:

"Each race page includes a set of alternative benefits that characters of that race may choose instead of the normal benefits for their favored class. Thus, rather than taking an extra hit point or an extra skill rank, players may choose for their characters to gain the benefit listed here. This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them."

You are misreadign it. They are not interchangable.

That text is saying you have a favored class point. You can use that point for HP, skill points, or to boost a class feature. In no way do you get to trade in hp or skill points for favored class points. If that was the case the rogue could trade in his skill points and just get a rogue talent every level.

PS: I may have misunderstood what you are trying to say.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

The exact answer was "when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have".

A 1st level Rogue doesn't have the Rogue Talent class feature.

Where does a rogue increase the effective level of their rogue talent? Rogue talents don't have effectively levels, you have rogue talents.

You can not increase/boost/improve/etc what you do not have. A first level rogue has the same access to rogue talents as a first level fighter does. That is why you should have to wait until 2nd level.

It is not a rule I would enforce, but it does fall in line with the reasoning behind the oracle ruling.


Nefreet wrote:


It stems from this post by PFS Leadership, confirming the rules from the Design Team:

John Compton wrote:

Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?

No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.

This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.

Rogues can't start +1/6th of a Rogue Talent until level 2

Except, strictly speaking, this ruling has nothing to do with Rogue Talents. Why?

To reiterate from the quote

John compton wrote:
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have.

The extra Rogue Talent AFCB doesn't change the effective level of any class feature, like say, Aasimar Oracle does. So the ruling here doesn't address AFCB's like adding an additional Rogue Talent.


wraithstrike wrote:


You can not increase/boost/improve/etc what you do not have. A first level rogue has the same access to rogue talents as a first level fighter does. That is why you should have to wait until 2nd level.

It is not a rule I would enforce, but it does fall in line with the reasoning behind the oracle ruling.

IF choosing a class feature’s effective level to increase, then you must have the class feature.

I am not chosing a class features effective level to increase. So it does not follow that i need the class feature.


Errant_Epoch wrote:
Everyone who plays Pathfinder should learn the terms "exclusive or" and "inclusive or" from Georg Cantor's set theory notation and then we wouldn't have to have arguments like this.

In typical English usage, the word "or" is the logical XOR (exclusive or), and the logical OR function (inclusive or) is often expressed in written English as "and/or."

Confusing? Perhaps. But at least it's consistent, usually. Heh.


I agree Zathyr but apparently the OP doesn't. :)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Nefreet wrote:
You can't gain 1/6th of a Rogue Talent at 1st level, because you don't have the Rogue Talent class feature.
Rub-Eta wrote:

@OP: Finding Your Kin does not give an extra FCB (favored class bonuse), it gives +1hp and +1 skill rank with each level of the selected favored class.

Fast Lerner doesn't give you additional FCBs, it alters your already existing FCB choises from +1hp or +1skill rank or AFCB (Alternate Favored Class Bonuses) to +1hp and +1 skill rank or AFCB.

Both of these are +1 for me.

If you sit at my table, this is my RAW.


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Still waiting to see how on earth the effective level caveat applies to rogue talents.


So I guess my new question is, if you take the feats, do you get +1 hp OR +1 Skill point, AND the FCB? Because the feat give you both the skill point and the HP. So can you switch it up?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


You can not increase/boost/improve/etc what you do not have. A first level rogue has the same access to rogue talents as a first level fighter does. That is why you should have to wait until 2nd level.

It is not a rule I would enforce, but it does fall in line with the reasoning behind the oracle ruling.

IF choosing a class feature’s effective level to increase, then you must have the class feature.

I am not chosing a class features effective level to increase. So it does not follow that i need the class feature.

So my fighter can apply the FCB to rogue talents?

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