Simple question, when a calling spell, the gate spell for instance, is used to call a creature, say a solar, does that creature come with the items listed on its monster entry (bow, sword, and plate)?
Additionally, if that creature is killed does it drop said items? I ask because when a called creature is reduced to zero hp it is killed, not simply returned like a summoning spell. Furthermore, would killing said creature yield xp?
For further reference, here is the text on calling spells:
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.
Yes, you can call an outsider, kill it, and take its stuff. It's really up to the GM to develop in-universe consequences from doing stuff like this. Whether or not the GM grants XP for this is up to his discretion. I generally don't award XP if the party picks needless fights for petty reasons, for the obvious reason that I want to discourage them from doing that.
Of course, even lesser planar binding is a 5th level spell so it's not like this is an option for low-level spellcasters. Any full spellcaster of the 9th level or higher who is willing to take risks and make enemies has innumerable ways of earning quick and easy cash.
Personally, doing away with the XP system and institituing a Magical Enumcbrance system helps to aleviate these issues.
Yes, by RAW if they call/gate in a solar and kill it they should get XP and loot from it. However, a wise GM shouldn't allow this.
Get rid of XP, have players level at the pace of plot. It's super easy to do with APs, and if you plan out homebrew in advance it's not to difficult to determine. Basically figure out what level you want the enemies to be at certain points, and it's easy to set what level the party should be.
If you limit them to how much magical items they can use, the loot everything mentality starts to disappear. The driving factors are no longer every copper or every experience point, but rather the adventure.
The stop doing annoying things like calling in outsiders and killing them and start actually adventuring.
Claxon,
I like your magical encumbrance system. That is pretty sweet.
As for the Solar killing PC's, I would probably give them XP, but I figure assassinating a Solar is worth a visit from an Empyreal Lord and his/her buddies. I bet Vildeis would make for a nice horror-style encounter........
I didn't create it, but ever since I found it on here I've really fallen in love with the beauty of it. You can give them all the wealth in the world, it doesn't let them become more powerful (at least not directly, I mean they could spend it on armies and such but that is usually less of a challenge than allowing too powerful of magical items) :)
Great responses everyone! I asked this question because I am running a high level high rp campaign and had a player who wanted to make a simulacrum of a solar as a bodyguard and equip it properly.
Altogether the items it comes with equate to over 200k gold so he was looking for a simpler RAW way to handle this that was cheaper. He is aware that there are rp consequences to this but I dont mind as its giving me material to work with and will add flavor.
I think the magical encumberwnce is interesting but might need to be adjusted. As my game is very heavy rp, giving the players money that they wont use on items and will instead use to leverage others is more of a concern.
An additional question. Gate allows you to command the creature whose HD is less or equal to your caster level for a number of rounds equal to your caster level. If a character raised its CL for the purposes of the spell such that he could command a solar, Could that player command the creature to simply hand over its items?
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I guess he could command it to hand over the items... Assuming it is something that can be done within the given amount of rounds. Taking of a big armor takes a long time fx.
I'd still say there were consequences to robbing a solar of it's items, but it might be less severe than killing a solar.
To control a solar you nee a caster level of 22 or more. Rules aren't clear at all on how the "control" part work, but the HD limits is reasonably clear.
Just be happy the players aren't planeshifting and gating in the BBEG yet.
Wouldn't the BBEG count as a unique being and as such be under no compulsion to come according to the spell? Or does unique mean something else?
Edit: after looking into the forums and at the spell it depends on what your BBEG is; unique refers to creatures of which there are only one of, like the tarrasque.
Now you know why powerful outsiders guard their true names so carefully. Nicknames aren't good enough for that purpose -- and the name you think you know is nothing more than a nickname in most cases.
Now you know why powerful outsiders guard their true names so carefully. Nicknames aren't good enough for that purpose -- and the name you think you know is nothing more than a nickname in most cases.That's one solution, but I don't think the rules support it; magic that lets you identify an entity seems to be happy enough with a clear enough identification that it's obvious whom you're referring to.
Yeah, otherwise spells like sending, which only require familiarity, wouldnt make any sense. Though as a houserule I think there is a lot of flavor to that idea and it would be a great way to implement a way to get at the BBEG in a campaign.
I think that truenames hold far mor power to outsiders than just being able to summon them. Check out the Truename wizard discovery:
Your researches into ancient tomes and your inquisitions of bound spirits have led you to one of the best-hidden secrets of the multiverse: the true name of an outsider—the name that defines the very essence of the creature and that gives the speaker control over the being. This outsider can have no more than 12 Hit Dice. Once per day, you can speak the common name by which the outsider is known, and the outsider travels to you as if you had cast planar binding upon it. It must obey you to the best of its ability, without pay or bargaining for its services, for its fear that you might release its true name to the wider world is enough to bring even the most recalcitrant of outsiders to bear.
If the creature is within 100 feet, as a move action, you may punish it by deliberately mispronouncing its name, wracking its very essence and giving it the sickened and staggered conditions for 1 round (even if the creature is normally immune to these conditions). You cannot use true name in an area of silence, but the creature does not have to be able to hear you for it to be harmed by the ability.
It is in your best interest to call this creature only sparingly, and occasionally reward it in some fashion to mollify its wrath. If you repeatedly fail to offer it a reward appropriate to its type and ethos, the creature may begin plotting ways to destroy the bond between you, whether by creating an accident that will destroy your memory of the name, by plaguing you with nuisances or dangers until you vow never to call on it again, or by actively seeking to destroy you through its own devices or those of an underling. If this creature is of a lawful type and you are violating its ethos, its superiors may even destroy it or you rather than allow you to contaminate their servant further. Worse, they may establish situations where it is necessary for you to summon this outsider, opening gateways to infernal or angelic interference, in order to gain a foothold on the Material Plane.
Note that an Efreeti has less than 12 hd O.O
Many of those monsters work for someone, and if you abuse the spell somebody will come looking for you, and it may not be CR appropriate. I would tell the players up front about this though, so they can decide to take the risk or not.
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Many of those monsters work for someone, and if you abuse the spell somebody will come looking for you, and it may not be CR appropriate. I would tell the players up front about this though, so they can decide to take the risk or not.Well during normal play you'd already expect creatures to come after you. So if creatures come looking for you because of using Gate, the only real difference is their motivation.
The DM can always decide to end the campaign by sending inappropriate challenges after the PCs. It'd be a lot nicer if you just stated you want to end the campaign though.
It is nice if the player realize that actions have consequences and don't start crying foul when the consequences happen.
Many of those monsters work for someone, and if you abuse the spell somebody will come looking for you, and it may not be CR appropriate. I would tell the players up front about this though, so they can decide to take the risk or not.Well during normal play you'd already expect creatures to come after you. So if creatures come looking for you because of using Gate, the only real difference is their motivation.
The DM can always decide to end the campaign by sending inappropriate challenges after the PCs. It'd be a lot nicer if you just stated you want to end the campaign though.It is nice if the player realize that actions have consequences and don't start crying foul when the consequences happen.
Indeed. If you start messing with gods and their servants, don't be surprised when they return the favor.
*I would probably tell the party after one or two attacks that if the continue this path that they would be targetted for extermination by a Solar hit squad. Deities do not suffer the annoyance of mortals lightly.
Many of those monsters work for someone, and if you abuse the spell somebody will come looking for you, and it may not be CR appropriate. I would tell the players up front about this though, so they can decide to take the risk or not.Well during normal play you'd already expect creatures to come after you. So if creatures come looking for you because of using Gate, the only real difference is their motivation.
The DM can always decide to end the campaign by sending inappropriate challenges after the PCs. It'd be a lot nicer if you just stated you want to end the campaign though.
I did not say it would be impossible to win the fight, just very difficult. The rules already say that those monster may work for someone more powerful. That is in the spell itself. It is just up to the GM to decide to bring the boss into the game or not, and since it is in the spell, the players have to decide if it is worth the risk. I am saying that I tell them up front, just in case they need a reminder.
I brought up that players can also be gated on the 3.5 boards a while ago. :)
PS: I would have to read the PF version to see if it is still true however.
Generally, I treat the magic weapons wielded by outsiders as empowered by the outsider itself. Sometimes this is explicit (A barbazu's wounding glaive, for instance).
A solar drops a large sword, but it's just a sword out of his hands.
Generally, I treat the magic weapons wielded by outsiders as empowered by the outsider itself. Sometimes this is explicit (A barbazu's wounding glaive, for instance).
A solar drops a large sword, but it's just a sword out of his hands.
I notice that when when looking at monster gear such as Ghaele(spelled wrong) that the items are normally equivalent so it is the actual item, if it has an enhancement. But some do empower their items when called out such as the Ice devil, IIRC.
PS: I don't mind leaving the options in to deal with the "boss" because it gives the players freedom, even if it is a bad idea to do so. So far nobody has taken it that far in my games however.
I brought up that players can also be gated on the 3.5 boards a while ago. :)
PS: I would have to read the PF version to see if it is still true however.
According to http://paizo.com/prd/spells/gate.html:
Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures....
Seems clear cut to me. PC's on the prime material plane are obviously extraplanar to something on the outer planes or else the spell wouldn't let you summon anything from that plane. It seems like the "known individual" part cancels out any dubious arguments that PC's are "unique."
Yeah it still works then. Thanks for the quote. I had not gotten around to it yet.
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This reminds me of a 14th level campaign I ran.
The party was rocking a Rod of Withering on a bunch of monks that worked for a BBEG. One of the monks stole (Disarm) the Rod, sold it. When they finally defeated the BBEG, they got a bag containing the gold and a receipt for the sale of the Rod. The receipt made it clear they had until the end of the week to return for the item. Instead they robbed the magic shop to get "their" item back.
End of campaign as they all ultimately had to fight the entire city and got jailed, killed, or fled.
Actions have consequences.
Generally, I treat the magic weapons wielded by outsiders as empowered by the outsider itself. Sometimes this is explicit (A barbazu's wounding glaive, for instance).
A solar drops a large sword, but it's just a sword out of his hands.
I think the difference here is that the solar's items are listed as its loot in the monster entry.
Also, just as a caveat, since we already have instances where the ability of a weapon is provided by the creature (balor, barbazu), I believe the cases where a weapons power is not expressly derived from the creature should not be treated as such. When you fight well equipped enemies and succeed, you should get high level things, or at least have a chance to get something cool.
Now will you be able to find someone that wants to (or even can) buy your +4 longsword that you replaced with your new loot and turn that into actual money .... maybe
I have to agree with Diego and Claxon. If you can't take the punishment for your actions then don't do the action. Personally I'd warn the group before they completed a plan that I believed needed to have severe consequences. If they still go ahead, they had better be prepared for some encounters that are at least slightly outside the normal scope of encounter levels.Many of those monsters work for someone, and if you abuse the spell somebody will come looking for you, and it may not be CR appropriate. I would tell the players up front about this though, so they can decide to take the risk or not.Well during normal play you'd already expect creatures to come after you. So if creatures come looking for you because of using Gate, the only real difference is their motivation.
The DM can always decide to end the campaign by sending inappropriate challenges after the PCs. It'd be a lot nicer if you just stated you want to end the campaign though.It is nice if the player realize that actions have consequences and don't start crying foul when the consequences happen.
Indeed. If you start messing with gods and their servants, don't be surprised when they return the favor.
*I would probably tell the party after one or two attacks that if the continue this path that they would be targetted for extermination by a Solar hit squad. Deities do not suffer the annoyance of mortals lightly.
They are all definitely aware of the consequences. Again this is one player wanting to kill a single solar (the player is evil btw so its not like he's torn up about it) and there has been a lot of planning that went into it. This amounts to the character gating the creature on a small temporary demi-plane warded against divination that will be dimensionally locked as soon as the solar arrives to prevent escape as well as outside viewing and retribution (at best permenantly and at worst temporarily). I think I am going to have the players make some checks to see if they end up spiriting the solar away so to speak (since the solar went somewhere that couldn't be scryed on and that no longer exists) or attracting a lot of attention.
If its the latter I intend to then turn this into a plot element where the players must perform some sort of service for good or enlist the help of evil aligned creatures to vet themselves against retribution.
And as a side note, while I think consequences are good, flat out killing the group isn't worth it. If you are going to run the group against impossible odds with no way out then either prevent the players from doing what they set out to do or just end the campaign. Otherwise you're wasting the time of everyone who isn't on board (usually).
Killing a single solar is ok. Binding and killing several outsiders of good or bad alignment might be a problems when outsider X serves someone with real power in their realm. Now there are in game ways to make it almost impossible for the players to be known as the culprits, but most players won't go through that much trouble.