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The trend in the Meet the Iconics blog has also been consistent, as has the use of iconics in Paizo pregens. The APG antipaladin has never been used for either.
As Rysky pointed out, Meet the Iconics started before the CRB launched.
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Okay, it's starting to get muddled; we seem to have a couple of parallel metrics in play here.
.... what trend? Paizo first published APs in the 3rd edition era.
The trend originally referred to above:
To be a Pathfinder Iconic, your illustration must appear in the sourcebook describing the class as an example of a member of that class.
Despite the first clause, this refers to a trend that transcends the comparative trivialities of brand and goes back to the 3.0 Player's Handbook.
The word "must" is an overstatement, but as I said, to anyone who's been collecting rulebooks but not APs (and possibly the novels and most other ancillary merchandise), that IS what all other indicators would have led one to conclude about what is meant by an "Iconic".
The trend in the Meet the Iconics blog has also been consistent, as has the use of iconics in Paizo pregens. The APG antipaladin has never been used for either.
Thus, we return to the foundational dilemma of this thread; merely a friendly and more than reasonable question about a conspicuous odd-man-out.
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Their entire statement was an overstatement, in that it was something they made up, it's neither a trend nor rule. Anywhere.
I'm pretty sure 3rd didn't even refer to them as "Iconics", and the Dungeon and Dragon magazines by Paizo didn't use them at all I believe, they used their own Iconics. And when they started the AP line they made up new Iconics.
Paizo Iconics are who Paizo say they are, end of discussion.
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Thus, we return to the foundational dilemma of this thread; merely a friendly and more than reasonable question about a conspicuous odd-man-out.
I love you and I love playing with Xasay, but I can't honestly say that the exchange after the start of the thread necro was friendly or reasonable.
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Iconics in Pathfinder have their own backstory blogpost and can be either introduced in a Harcover core line book or an AP would be a far more true trend to state.
Now if you wanted to say that recently Paizo has trended towards introducing Iconics in Core Line books rather than APs, that would be true.
But that doesn't even come close to making a case that the Iconic Antipaladin introduced in Hell's Vengeance isn't an Iconic. He was simply introduced in the same way the original 11 class iconics were. And people are more than welcome to say that they dislike this, but that also doesn't make him not an Iconic.
You'll also notice that neither of these statements has the word must in it like the statement you quoted. Which is important because there is no "must" here since Paizo has never formally stated rules that an Iconic has to follow in it's introduction. Cantriped's statement wasn't of a trend, he was stating that to be an iconic you absolutely have to follow "x" rules as a fact.
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But that doesn't even come close to making a case that the Iconic Antipaladin introduced in Hell's Vengeance isn't an Iconic. He was simply introduced in the same way the original 11 class iconics were. And people are more than welcome to say that they dislike this, but that also doesn't make him not an Iconic.
The issue, as I understand it, has nothing to do with the "Hell's Vengeance" Antipaladin (who wasn't even mentioned until after the reanimation) - but specifically, why is the Advanced Player's Guide Antipaladin NOT an Iconic? Clearly, there are multiple ways to become an "Iconic", and that fellow fits one criteria 100%...yet he is the only one to date to meet those criteria, yet somehow not even be recognized with a name.
You'll also notice that neither of these statements has the word must in it like the statement you quoted. Which is important because there is no "must" here since Paizo has never formally stated rules that an Iconic has to follow in it's introduction. Cantriped's statement wasn't of a trend, he was stating that to be an iconic you absolutely have to follow "x" rules as a fact.
Certainly, that was an overstatement on Cantriped's part, as I have said multiple times now.
I love you and I love playing with Xasay, but I can't honestly say that the exchange after the start of the thread necro was friendly or reasonable.
I am sincerely glad to hear that first clause.
Note that the Sinister Chris was the necromancer, and hasn't been involved since.
The only reason I eventually stepped in was because I didn't feel like Cantriped's comment, presumptuous though he might have been, deserved to be piled-on. While I can't say I really know much about Cantriped, I DO know this: Far too often (like, ever), people rapidly and rigidly presume to judge one's alignment and/or Intelligence based solely on their Charisma-based skill checks (or even the further penalties sometimes imposed on such rolls when attempted between radically different Creature Types); it's not fair, and it hurts.
Nerds - real nerds, not just people who are into games and whatnot (because these days, "gamer" means about as much as "TV-watcher" or "book-reader"), but full-on, original-recipe, good old-fashioned "Aberrations In Human Skin & Live-Action Tim Burton Characters" need a place to call their own where they need not fear mobs with pitchforks every time they dare to speak; everyone, please be tolerant.
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Giving up quoting because it's becoming a mess to edit at this point.
The Hell's Vengeance Antipaladin wasn't mentioned until after the necro because he didn't exist when the original thread was made.
And the antipaladin sketched in the APG is not an Iconic for one simple reason: Paizo decided for whatever reason they didn't want an Iconic antipaladin at that time and just had some art drawn up so the class would have some.
Meanwhile in 2016 when they did an evil AP they decided it was a good time to introduce an Iconic antipaladin among the other evil Iconics.
And since he was illustrated by Wayne Reynolds and introduced in an AP he fits into the trend of Iconics just as well if not better than pig kicker.
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And since he was illustrated by Wayne Reynolds and introduced in an AP he fits into the trend of Iconics just as well if not better than pig kicker.
*shrug* Would hardly be the first time there were two Iconics of one class (especially if we're including those borne of APs). While a more a minority variant than not, precedent for that goes as far back as Tordek and Regdar the Fighters.
Still break the Core Races rule, and some think the APG one is just cooler.While I can't argue with taste, I am curious where this "Core Races rule" was ever outlined. I have looked through the all the rules references I can find, and there's nothing anywhere that says what an iconic is, other than message board posts from Paizo staff. But if there's anything this thread has taught me, it's that Paizo staff can't be trusted as authorities on who is and isn't an iconic. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I blame poor in house communications on the subject for the "lack of trust". And where's Stephen Radney-MacFarland when you need his Evil opinion on a subject?
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I think our pig-punting purveyor of perniciousness is better for not being an official iconic. He gets to be emblematic of over-the-top hammy evil (see: pig punting, evil lair/burning orphanage crossroads, etc.) that really doesn't readily sit with a serious backstory.
The answer to “will the real Antipaladin iconic please stand up, please stand up” is not found in the past, but in the future. Which one was used as the antipaladin art template after Hell’s Vengeance, and which will be in the future?
Franchise Manager
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The issue, as I understand it, has nothing to do with the "Hell's Vengeance" Antipaladin (who wasn't even mentioned until after the reanimation) - but specifically, why is the Advanced Player's Guide Antipaladin NOT an Iconic? Clearly, there are multiple ways to become an "Iconic", and that fellow fits one criteria 100%...yet he is the only one to date to meet those criteria, yet somehow not even be recognized with a name.
The APG antipaladin is not an Iconic for the following reasons:
1) He has neither a name nor a backstory. In the case of every official Iconic, they were conceived as such prior to their inclusion in whatever book or blog or whatever they debuted in, and their names and backstories were the subject of numerous internal creative discussions held by Paizo staff.
2) He represents an alternate class (really little more than an overly complicated archetype). At the time of his release, there were no other alternate classes. It was decided that we wouldn't make an Iconic for what was essentially an archetype, because then we'd need a LOT of archetype Iconics and no one has time for that. We later, in Ultimate Combat, released two more alternate classes—the ninja and samurai—and decided to give them Iconics because it was important for fleshing out our Asia analogue (Tian Xia) that we provide some context for these "classes" in the world. If anything, Hayato and Reiko are the exceptions to the rule, not "Sir Pig-kicker".
3) While he has been used in art a few times since his initial appearance, so have tons of other characters. Patrick Renie, while he was a developer here, often reused characters originally intended to depict an archetype or racial variant or organization in Pathfinder Player Companions. That doesn't make any of those characters Iconics, but rather Easter eggs for fans who pay attention to the art across multiple books or product lines.
4) He has not been used for marketing or branding at all, which is one of the reasons we have Iconic characters in the first place. While a certain contingent of fans, as far back as when this thread was originally started, have ascribed pseudo-Iconic status to him, from a brand perspective no one at Paizo has. And you can call him an Iconic all you want, but that won't make him one, and you'll continually be disappointed that he's being "left out" of all the reindeer games.
5) Sir Pig-kicker was illustrated by Eric Belisle, who also did all the full-body portraits for the Core Rulebook and APG prestige classes. So while they're all great illustrations that we love, he wasn't designed by Wayne Reynolds, who is effectively our concept artist when it comes to deciding how iconic representations of our various classes are going to be depicted. It's a cool illustration, but it's not a baseline class template from Wayne.
6) He's also not a Core Race. That's right, the character on page 123 of Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide is actually an aasimar. That's why his eyes are totally white and glowing, and why he has blue hair poking out from behind his ears. He's descended from a planetar angel, and instead of inheriting blue skin, it went to his hair. Weird, right? So to everyone claiming an Iconic has to be a member of a Core Race, I'm sorry, but he's disqualified by your own rules. If he'd come out after we decided that Iconics could be from other 0-HD races he might have had a chance, but he was just before his time.
Honestly, I thought he had white eyes to symbolize the corrupted nature of his being. Most "zombies" popularly depicted in older genres were given whitish gray irises to symbolize the discoloring and decaying of the cells that make up the eyes. In short, a "sentient undead" sort of look and not "Angel descended into madness" look.
That being said, you describing the depiction as well-informed as you have, is there more to this character? Because even if he isn't an Iconic, he's certainly interesting enough to both have a backstory and have this unheard of information...
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1) He has neither a name nor a backstory.
Yes, but no reason he couldn't! ^^
2) He represents an alternate class (really little more than an overly complicated archetype). At the time of his release, there were no other alternate classes. It was decided that we wouldn't make an Iconic for what was essentially an archetype, because then we'd need a LOT of archetype Iconics and no one has time for that. We later, in Ultimate Combat, released two more alternate classes—the ninja and samurai—and decided to give them Iconics because it was important for fleshing out our Asia analogue (Tian Xia) that we provide some context for these "classes" in the world. If anything, Hayato and Reiko are the exceptions to the rule, not "Sir Pig-kicker".
A-HA. BINGO. I admit I'd forgotten that he was the one and only "Alternate Class" when he first showed up. THIS is a good argument.
6) He's also not a Core Race. That's right, the character on page 123 of Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide is actually an aasimar. That's why his eyes are totally white and glowing, and why he has blue hair poking out from behind his ears. He's descended from a planetar angel, and instead of inheriting blue skin, it went to his hair. Weird, right?
HA! AWESOME! There is no better Antipaladin than an Aasimar!
Actually, I don't normally care about Iconics, but that DOES make me want to see him get more ink!
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That being said, you describing the depiction as well-informed as you have, is there more to this character? Because even if he isn't an Iconic, he's certainly interesting enough to both have a backstory and have this unheard of information...
Sure. It's our job to make up new, unheard information. That's it for him thus far, though. Maybe folks can base new PCs around him and share their concepts and the community can decide which they like the best. If you're interested in learning more about him, please subscribe to all of our product lines and you might luck out in the future.*
* Not a guarantee.
That being said, you describing the depiction as well-informed as you have, is there more to this character? Because even if he isn't an Iconic, he's certainly interesting enough to both have a backstory and have this unheard of information...Sure. It's our job to make up new, unheard information. That's it for him thus far, though. Maybe folks can base new PCs around him and share their concepts and the community can decide which they like the best. If you're interested in learning more about him, please subscribe to all of our product lines and you might luck out in the future.*
* Not a guarantee.
Maybe Stephen? He does use him as an avatar.
6) He's also not a Core Race. That's right, the character on page 123 of Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide is actually an aasimar. That's why his eyes are totally white and glowing, and why he has blue hair poking out from behind his ears. He's descended from a planetar angel, and instead of inheriting blue skin, it went to his hair. Weird, right? So to everyone claiming an Iconic has to be a member of a Core Race, I'm sorry, but he's disqualified by your own rules. If he'd come out after we decided that Iconics could be from other 0-HD races he might have had a chance, but he was just before his time.
And...NOW he has a backstory. Thank you.
What's his name, Mr. Moreland? (please?)
He probably made it up on the spot. :-D
The issue, as I understand it, has nothing to do with the "Hell's Vengeance" Antipaladin (who wasn't even mentioned until after the reanimation) - but specifically, why is the Advanced Player's Guide Antipaladin NOT an Iconic? Clearly, there are multiple ways to become an "Iconic", and that fellow fits one criteria 100%...yet he is the only one to date to meet those criteria, yet somehow not even be recognized with a name.The APG antipaladin is not an Iconic for the following reasons:
1) He has neither a name nor a backstory. In the case of every official Iconic, they were conceived as such prior to their inclusion in whatever book or blog or whatever they debuted in, and their names and backstories were the subject of numerous internal creative discussions held by Paizo staff.
2) He represents an alternate class (really little more than an overly complicated archetype). At the time of his release, there were no other alternate classes. It was decided that we wouldn't make an Iconic for what was essentially an archetype, because then we'd need a LOT of archetype Iconics and no one has time for that. We later, in Ultimate Combat, released two more alternate classes—the ninja and samurai—and decided to give them Iconics because it was important for fleshing out our Asia analogue (Tian Xia) that we provide some context for these "classes" in the world. If anything, Hayato and Reiko are the exceptions to the rule, not "Sir Pig-kicker".
3) While he has been used in art a few times since his initial appearance, so have tons of other characters. Patrick Renie, while he was a developer here, often reused characters originally intended to depict an archetype or racial variant or organization in Pathfinder Player Companions. That doesn't make any of those characters Iconics, but rather Easter eggs for fans who pay attention to the art across multiple books or product lines.
4) He has not been used for marketing or branding at all,...
I'd just like to say that I am really happy my name for him has caught on already.
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This is a most intriguing conversation. At the time of writing this post, I looked on the Pathfinder wiki for known antipaladins and that is when I discovered some interesting things.
1. While I agree with the notion that the antipaladin in APG is an aasimer, on the wiki it states that he is a human (but I think that being an aasimer would give him a better backstory).
2. There actually is an iconic character that is an antipaladin. His name is Urgraz (he's a duergar who worships the demon lord Mazmezz) and he appears in the adventure path: "Scourge of the Godclaw".
I hope that this helps out a bit. :-)
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This is a most intriguing conversation. At the time of writing this post, I looked on the Pathfinder wiki for known antipaladins and that is when I discovered some interesting things.
1. While I agree with the notion that the antipaladin in APG is an aasimer, on the wiki it states that he is a human (but I think that being an aasimer would give him a better backstory).
2. There actually is an iconic character that is an antipaladin. His name is Urgraz (he's a duergar who worships the demon lord Mazmezz) and he appears in the adventure path: "Scourge of the Godclaw".
I hope that this helps out a bit. :-)
1) The Wiki is a fan run site, whereas Mark Moreland... is an actual f&*$ing employee of Paizo :3
2. Yep-yep! He’s the Iconic Mark and others have brought up.
One of the points of discontent about Urgraz being the Antipaladin iconic is that Duergar have a -4 to Cha.
Anti-Paladins can do quite well for themselves without a super high charisma.
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And? Do the iconics always have to have optimized stats for their class?
No, they don't; but even apart from the "who or what gets to be an Iconic" question, the notion of a Duergar Antipaladin did give me pause for precisely that reason. While a -2 is manageable (especially if compensated for by a decent racial Archetype like the Oread Shaitan Binder Summoner), a -4 to a class's single most prominent ("primary" might be a bit strong) ability score has got to HUUURT.
Hmm...Dwarf Paladins do get to be Stonelords and sidestep the issue. Maybe there should be a similar Antipaladin Archetype for Duergar?
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Hmm...Dwarf Paladins do get to be Stonelords and sidestep the issue. Maybe there should be a similar Antipaladin Archetype for Duergar?
A racial alternate trait that changes the charisma penalty for something else could be another way to make a Duergar Antipaladin a little sexier. Or something like the Tiefling Fiendish Sorcery trait, giving a Duergar an effective bonus to Charisma for certain class abilities.
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The iconic antipaladin is named Stephen. He's charming, funny, roguishly handsome and he works at Paizo. That's all you need to know. That's all he wants you to know. If you learn more, he would have to track you down and kill you.
Oh, that and he likes to kick pigs. It tenderizes the delicious meat.
Hail!
The iconic antipaladin is named Stephen. He's charming, funny, roguishly handsome and he works at Paizo. That's all you need to know. That's all he wants you to know. If you learn more, he would have to track you down and kill you.
Oh, that and he likes to kick pigs. It tenderizes the delicious meat.
Hail!
An Antipaladin is an employee of Paizo, huh.
So I guess all of the "Paizo is Evil!" claims have some truth to them after all... [/sarcasm]
Does he wield the almighty Pork Slayer blade and Pig Sticker dagger, +3 Flaming Swine Bane weapons that grant a +5 competence bonus to Profession [Cook] when cooking pigs, and when used together double the bonus and allow the wielder to, once per day, Take 20 on any main dish involving pork (such as bacon, sausage, or chops), even while distracted?
The iconic antipaladin is named Stephen. He's charming, funny, roguishly handsome and he works at Paizo. That's all you need to know. That's all he wants you to know. If you learn more, he would have to track you down and kill you.
Oh, that and he likes to kick pigs. It tenderizes the delicious meat.
Hail!
How do I learn more?
Expected the tenderizing part.
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Does he wield the almighty Pork Slayer blade and Pig Sticker dagger, +3 Flaming Swine Bane weapons that grant a +5 competence bonus to Profession [Cook] when cooking pigs, and when used together double the bonus and allow the wielder to, once per day, Take 20 on any main dish involving pork (such as bacon, sausage, or chops), even while distracted?
I need no special tools to kill swine, fool! Dark powers have granted me to extract bacon with my bare hands if need be. Sometimes I even cook it when I'm done.
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How do I learn more?
Expected the tenderizing part.
Step into this magically prepared circle. Don't mind the flames. It'll not hurt a bit. And "by not hurt a bit," I mean it's going to be endlessly agonizing for both your body and soul. Such is the fate of the foolishly curious.
Sir Stephen the pig-kicker it is.
Step into this magically prepared circle. Don't mind the flames. It'll not hurt a bit. And "by not hurt a bit," I mean it's going to be endlessly agonizing for both your body and soul. Such is the fate of the foolishly curious.How do I learn more?
Expected the tenderizing part.
Does he wield the almighty Pork Slayer blade and Pig Sticker dagger, +3 Flaming Swine Bane weapons that grant a +5 competence bonus to Profession [Cook] when cooking pigs, and when used together double the bonus and allow the wielder to, once per day, Take 20 on any main dish involving pork (such as bacon, sausage, or chops), even while distracted?I need no special tools to kill swine, fool! Dark powers have granted me to extract bacon with my bare hands if need be. Sometimes I even cook it when I'm done.
Ah, but why would you simply "kill" the swine with your bare hands like a simpleton Barbarian would? Why not chop it apart piece by piece, hearing the sweet squeals of your victim, as delicious as the flesh attached to their bones, their family and friends watching you devour their comrade, horrified that they will share that same fate?
True Evil is not so primitive, after all...
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]True Evil is not so primitive, after all...
You do evil your way, and I'll do it my way. I find the visceral approach to be the most terrifying. Mileage may vary. ;)
He wears pig skin boots when he kicks pigs for double the pig kickingness!
"Ha pig I'm kicking you and kicking your dead brother at the same time!"
Diabolical!
