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It seems to me that most of the reasons that rogues 'suck' is not so much mechanical as hostile Gming. Many GMs seem to delight in shutting down the rogue's strong points.
Rogues are primarily skill monkeys. Lots and lots of skills is what they do, so any effect that reduces the ability of skills reduces the effectiveness of rogues. And for some reason a rogue's skill set seems to be particularly targeted for nerfing.
Disable Device is pretty much a definitive rogue skill, especially when combined with Trap Finding. But there seems to be a common trend to neuter that skill. GMs artificially inflate the DC 'to keep it from being too easy' and thus nullifying all of the ranks, class abilities, feats, and magic spent on improving that skill. GMs force rogue players to metagame disabling traps. It somehow is incumbent on the player to read the GM's mind on how to disarm the trap rather than it be based on the CHARACTER'S abilities. GM's often disallow taking 10 on skill checks by inventing various pretexts because they 'want there to be some element of risk.' Here again the GM is invalidating all of the resources allocated to this skill.
Diplomacy is another classic rogue skill that is commonly neutered. GMs seem to feel that diplomacy checks should be based on player abilities, not those of the CHARACTER.
Many of the other skills such as Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Perception, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth also suffer from inflated DCs and disallowing T10, though not as often or as heavily as Disable Device.
Yes, these gimps apply to other classes, but how many of these other classes rely primarily on their skills to be effective? Bards still have Performance and spells, Inquisitors still have spells, and Rangers can still hit things.
GM's often disallow taking 10 on skill checks by inventing various pretexts because they 'want there to be some element of risk.' Here again the GM is invalidating all of the resources allocated to this skill.
Actually this helps the rogue because they can get skill mastery multiple times unlike anyone else.
GMs allowing people to take 10 to sneak past guards are far more damaging to rogues.
Rogue are also incredibly hard to build and many people try to play them like Slayers, which doesn't work.
I haven't seen GMs inflate disable device DC, but I haven't seen any GMs allow taking 10 either.
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Rogue talents are often horribly designed to be inferior to existing options. If fighters wish that feats were as potent as rage powers, rogues wish talents were as potent as feats.
Seriously, is there anyone who reads 'Steal the Story' or 'Black Market Connections' and gets excited about the possibilities for their character?
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In before "alot of classes can do those same skills but better because rogue doesn't have a way to actually perform any skill better than another class..."
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Ok here's why your mistaken.
1. They have less skills then INT based casters or certain Alchemists, or Bards. Oh, and those classes have spells/extracts to further increase their skills.
2. Class skills are far less meaningful in PF.
3. Bards will destroy Rogues at Diplomacy. And unless they put in more CHA then the Wizard so will the Wizard. Except the Wizard also has Charm Person.
4. Many skills can be completely replaced by spells. Craft gets crushed by Masterwork Transformation and Fabricate. Aram Zey's Focus give anyone the ability disable traps along with a +5 bonus and the ability to roll twice and take the better (Because no really... Rogues are weak.) Invisibility gives +20 Stealth. Spider Climb is superior to Climb. Etc.
5. Most of those skills you listed do allow taking 10, albeit not in all situations, though this is true of most skills.
6. Rogues class features are generally much weaker (so you are right here) then other classes, which is a problem because as you can see from the above points, they aren't good at skills anymore. Certainly not enough to justify that a class thing. Seriously, going from twice as many ranks (in large number of skills) to a +3 bonus (from less skills while other classes have more effectively thanks to skill folding) is a hard hit.
And with that... the proverbial school is out.
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Ok here's why your mistaken.
1. They have less skills then INT based casters or certain Alchemists, or Bards. Oh, and those classes have spells/extracts to further increase their skills.
2. Class skills are far less meaningful in PF.
3. Bards will destroy Rogues at Diplomacy. And unless they put in more CHA then the Wizard so will the Wizard. Except the Wizard also has Charm Person.
4. Many skills can be completely replaced by spells. Craft gets crushed by Masterwork Transformation and Fabricate. Aram Zey's Focus give anyone the ability disable traps along with a +5 bonus and the ability to roll twice and take the better (Because no really... Rogues are weak.) Invisibility gives +20 Stealth. Spider Climb is superior to Climb. Etc.
5. Most of those skills you listed do allow taking 10, albeit not in all situations, though this is true of most skills.
6. Rogues class features are generally much weaker (so you are right here) then other classes, which is a problem because as you can see from the above points, they aren't good at skills anymore. Certainly not enough to justify that a class thing. Seriously, going from twice as many ranks (in large number of skills) to a +3 bonus (from less skills while other classes have more effectively thanks to skill folding) is a hard hit.And with that... the proverbial school is out.
None of that actually makes rogues ineffective. Yes, some people can steal their thunder, but that is different from neutering them.
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I think the problem boils down to not just mechanics but character concept as well. If you want to make a non magical character with all of the rogue-like abilities Ninja and alchemist (vivisectionist) are better. If you want to use magic then... well take your pick of classes.
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None of that actually makes rogues ineffective. Yes, some people can steal their thunder, but that is different from neutering them.Ok here's why your mistaken.
1. They have less skills then INT based casters or certain Alchemists, or Bards. Oh, and those classes have spells/extracts to further increase their skills.
2. Class skills are far less meaningful in PF.
3. Bards will destroy Rogues at Diplomacy. And unless they put in more CHA then the Wizard so will the Wizard. Except the Wizard also has Charm Person.
4. Many skills can be completely replaced by spells. Craft gets crushed by Masterwork Transformation and Fabricate. Aram Zey's Focus give anyone the ability disable traps along with a +5 bonus and the ability to roll twice and take the better (Because no really... Rogues are weak.) Invisibility gives +20 Stealth. Spider Climb is superior to Climb. Etc.
5. Most of those skills you listed do allow taking 10, albeit not in all situations, though this is true of most skills.
6. Rogues class features are generally much weaker (so you are right here) then other classes, which is a problem because as you can see from the above points, they aren't good at skills anymore. Certainly not enough to justify that a class thing. Seriously, going from twice as many ranks (in large number of skills) to a +3 bonus (from less skills while other classes have more effectively thanks to skill folding) is a hard hit.And with that... the proverbial school is out.
We just covered that their class feature are weak. If those are weak and their skills weak, where exactly do you expect them to shine. Not in combat. Not at skills. Then at what precisely do you propose the excel at? Or is it ok for them to be miserable at everything and be overshadowed by other classes?
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*eyetwitch*
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It seems to me that most of the reasons that rogues 'suck' is not so much mechanical as hostile Gming. Many GMs seem to delight in shutting down the rogue's strong points.
Rogues are primarily skill monkeys. Lots and lots of skills is what they do, so any effect that reduces the ability of skills reduces the effectiveness of rogues. And for some reason a rogue's skill set seems to be particularly targeted for nerfing.
Disable Device is pretty much a definitive rogue skill, especially when combined with Trap Finding. But there seems to be a common trend to neuter that skill. GMs artificially inflate the DC 'to keep it from being too easy' and thus nullifying all of the ranks, class abilities, feats, and magic spent on improving that skill. GMs force rogue players to metagame disabling traps. It somehow is incumbent on the player to read the GM's mind on how to disarm the trap rather than it be based on the CHARACTER'S abilities. GM's often disallow taking 10 on skill checks by inventing various pretexts because they 'want there to be some element of risk.' Here again the GM is invalidating all of the resources allocated to this skill.
Diplomacy is another classic rogue skill that is commonly neutered. GMs seem to feel that diplomacy checks should be based on player abilities, not those of the CHARACTER.
Many of the other skills such as Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Perception, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth also suffer from inflated DCs and disallowing T10, though not as often or as heavily as Disable Device.
Yes, these gimps apply to other classes, but how many of these other classes rely primarily on their skills to be effective? Bards still have Performance and spells, Inquisitors still have spells, and Rangers can still hit things.
Thats kind of the biggest issue. Rogues live in the 'real' world. Dms and game writers have long since had interesting and often critical opinions of what should happen in the 'real' world.
Its perfectly fine for a spell to make your worst enemy your best friend (charm person), cuz magic. But skills? Peh i dont care how good you are at it, you dont get to do that.
A wizard can cast spider climb, and walk on the ceiling. But the rogue with a +30 climb? Nope, no hand holds.
In the older editions of the game, rogues and fighters were supposed to get world shaping power in the form of armies and theives guilds. It was actually part of the leveling up process. But dms and game writers didnt like that narrative power going in the hands of the players, but somehow were ok with the wizards world shaping power, because magic. So that built in aspect of the game was turned into the most reviled feat in the game, leadership.
And that is really the rogues bigest problem. He is a problem solver with skills, but his solutions are limited to the 'real' and thus are artificially limited in scope and power, and if things are 'easy' for them somehow, perception wise, dms get annoyed. Basically rogues 'suck' because they dont have significant supernatural/magical powers.
Seriously, is there anyone who reads 'Steal the Story' or 'Black Market Connections' and gets excited about the possibilities for their character?
I like black market connections because it lets me buy expensive items with a mechanic instead of GM fiat.
Though I don't have a place for it in my build until level 18... Pure narrative power is not what the rogue NEEDS.
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*eyetwitch*
It never ends
*eyetwitch*It never ends
It will once the Investigator and Slayer come out. Then we can all just cross Rogue out of our CRB, and write in directions to the Ninja alternate class, the Slayer and the Investigator. And we will never speak of the Rogue again.
And that is really the rogues bigest problem. He is a problem solver with skills, but his solutions are limited to the 'real' and thus are artificially limited in scope and power, and if things are 'easy' for them somehow, perception wise, dms get annoyed. Basically rogues 'suck' because they dont have significant supernatural/magical powers.
And then you grab skillmastery UMD and turn money into casting power.
Or you take the wizards hand-me-down staves and wands.Or you are the only person in the party that can use certain scrolls.
Now you have magic options that can really save your bacon and combos extremely well with a crafting caster in the party.
All that is potential. So what does it cost you?
a feat (skill focus UMD)
20% of an advance talent (skill mastery)
8.3% of your skill points.
NOTE: I understand some people think you can't take 10 on UMD with skillmastery. I have already said all I want on the matter on the rules forums and have no intention to discuss it here. Your interpretation is known, no need to explain it.
*eyetwitch*It never endsIt will once the Investigator and Slayer come out. Then we can all just cross Rogue out of our CRB, and write in directions to the Ninja alternate class, the Slayer and the Investigator. And we will never speak of the Rogue again.
Considering if the Investigator and slayer had a baby she would be called the rogue.
I don't think these debates will end. Even if these classes are straight better, then they will just receive the ToB treatment and be ignored by a large part of the player base.
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Nah, that'll just make your posts longer.
Hrm.. I better preemptively come up with a nice short post to resolve these then.
Rogue is not the Class you looking for. It's mechanics are particularly weak and thus it has been replaced by Paizo with the Ninja, Investigator and Slayer. Simply pick which one you want to play, call it a Rogue and voila! you now have a functional Rogue.
There... that should work. (Saves to notepad.)
Seriously, is there anyone who reads 'Steal the Story' or 'Black Market Connections' and gets excited about the possibilities for their character?
Yes, there are, but... you don't want to be those people imo. There are people who will argue rumormonger is amazing and even brokenly powerful.
Rogues are primarily skill monkeys. Lots and lots of skills is what they do, so any effect that reduces the ability of skills reduces the effectiveness of rogues. And for some reason a rogue's skill set seems to be particularly targeted for nerfing.
Skill points won't save you from fire bro'!
No really, skill points aren't likely to save your life in combat and the rogue isn't the best skill monkey. Other classes get more skill points and higher bonuses. Coupled with being awful at combat, rogue isn't a great place. There are a lot of reasons the rogue sucks. When skill suck it just makes it worse.
And that is really the rogues bigest problem. He is a problem solver with skills, but his solutions are limited to the 'real' and thus are artificially limited in scope and power, and if things are 'easy' for them somehow, perception wise, dms get annoyed. Basically rogues 'suck' because they dont have significant supernatural/magical powers.And then you grab skillmastery UMD and turn money into casting power.
Or you take the wizards hand-me-down staves and wands.
Or you are the only person in the party that can use certain scrolls.
Now you have magic options that can really save your bacon and combos extremely well with a crafting caster in the party.All that is potential. So what does it cost you?
a feat (skill focus UMD)
20% of an advance talent (skill mastery)
8.3% of your skill points.NOTE: I understand some people think you can't take 10 on UMD with skillmastery. I have already said all I want on the matter on the rules forums and have no intention to discuss it here. Your interpretation is known, no need to explain it.
I dont find wands to be a useful or significant source of supernatural power either. Mostly because of their level/dc limitations. They also cost alot in money. And the rogue, generally needs quite a bit of money for his gear to keep him alive in combat. Or he can fall even further behind. Either way he is jumping through hoops to do what casters can do for free, and better then him by a mile.
WHen I say he lacks supernatural powers, I mean he lacks them built into the class.
One should not have to go OUTSIDE the class features of a class for it to function effectively. And thats what rogues need. Classes with supernatural/magical abilities dont need that.
And that is really the rogues bigest problem. He is a problem solver with skills, but his solutions are limited to the 'real' and thus are artificially limited in scope and power, and if things are 'easy' for them somehow, perception wise, dms get annoyed. Basically rogues 'suck' because they dont have significant supernatural/magical powers.And then you grab skillmastery UMD and turn money into casting power.
Or you take the wizards hand-me-down staves and wands.
Or you are the only person in the party that can use certain scrolls.
Now you have magic options that can really save your bacon and combos extremely well with a crafting caster in the party.All that is potential. So what does it cost you?
a feat (skill focus UMD)
20% of an advance talent (skill mastery)
8.3% of your skill points.NOTE: I understand some people think you can't take 10 on UMD with skillmastery. I have already said all I want on the matter on the rules forums and have no intention to discuss it here. Your interpretation is known, no need to explain it.
I dont find wands to be a useful or significant source of supernatural power either. Mostly because of their level/dc limitations. They also cost alot in money. And the rogue, generally needs quite a bit of money for his gear to keep him alive in combat. Or he can fall even further behind. Either way he is jumping through hoops to do what casters can do for free, and better then him by a mile.
WHen I say he lacks supernatural powers, I mean he lacks them built into the class.
One should not have to go OUTSIDE the class features of a class for it to function effectively. And thats what rogues need. Classes with supernatural/magical abilities dont need that.
Yes,
But in actual play you get loot not WBL. And wands can be extremely useful. First level wands even more so.
Although if you are TWF you don't have the free hand for it. Which decreases the use. Solution? Don't TWF its a trap for rogues anyways.
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Meh, I have 2 PFS rogues, both of whom always contribute and have fun at the table.
My first was a knifefighter/scout archetype using daggers. I slapped agile on one as soon as I could. He also had a 28 dex at 8th level, so was doing tons of damage, albiet at the cost of being unable to disable magical traps (he can still disable non-magical ones quite well. With TWF, piranha strike, and rolling D8's on sneak he can dish out some pretty impressive damage. He's also a blast to play because he's basically a little halfling mafioso enforcer, and I get to slip back into my native Brooklyn accent when I play him.
My second is an Aasimar arcane trickster. I did 3 levels of rogue, 1 level of wizard, the rest arcane trickster and I haven't looked back. Ranged Legerdemain has kept the entire party alive a few times when traps on doors couldn't be disabled. I've built him with my GF, she has a rogue 2/oracle 7 and we've taken some teamwork feats and had a blast with that. A regular DM shakes his head every time one of us decides to take a higher roll using "duck and cover" and we regularly get stealth checks in the mid 50's thanks to "stealth synergy"
Anyway, this "stupid personal anecdote time" has been brought to you by the letter Q. (translation: don't care if they suck, I've been having fun with rogues)
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Solution? Don't TWF its a trap for rogues anyways.
That should be a sign there's a problem anyway.
He's also a blast to play because he's basically a little halfling mafioso enforcer, and I get to slip back into my native Brooklyn accent when I play him.
Roleplay shouldn't be used as a defense for a class like that imo. You can do that with a commoner, or in other games even, but it doesn't really do much to say "My class is amazing!" or "My class is mechanically functional and balanced with his peers".
Meh, I have 2 PFS rogues, both of whom always contribute and have fun at the table.
My first was a knifefighter/scout archetype using daggers. I slapped agile on one as soon as I could. He also had a 28 dex at 8th level, so was doing tons of damage, albiet at the cost of being unable to disable magical traps (he can still disable non-magical ones quite well. With TWF, piranha strike, and rolling D8's on sneak he can dish out some pretty impressive damage. He's also a blast to play because he's basically a little halfling mafioso enforcer, and I get to slip back into my native Brooklyn accent when I play him.
My second is an Aasimar arcane trickster. I did 3 levels of rogue, 1 level of wizard, the rest arcane trickster and I haven't looked back. Ranged Legerdemain has kept the entire party alive a few times when traps on doors couldn't be disabled. I've built him with my GF, she has a rogue 2/oracle 7 and we've taken some teamwork feats and had a blast with that. A regular DM shakes his head every time one of us decides to take a higher roll using "duck and cover" and we regularly get stealth checks in the mid 50's thanks to "stealth synergy"
Anyway, this "stupid personal anecdote time" has been brought to you by the letter Q. (translation: don't care if they suck, I've been having fun with rogues)
Is there any concept above that wouldn't work with an Investigator or Slayer instead? Because the first sounds like it would be well served by a Slayer and the second would be quite neat with either.
That way, even though Rogues suck you can still play your concept with something strong.
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It is silly because rogue are balanced witht "they can do it all day long" then we have rogue tanlents with 1/day for mundane actions.
Once per day you can slip on a banana peel and fall prone.
Is there any concept above that wouldn't work with an Investigator or Slayer instead? Because the first sounds like it would be well served by a Slayer and the second would be quite neat with either.
That way, even though Rogues suck you can still play your concept with something strong.
The arcane trickster might be a bit off with slayer because delayed casting and investigator doesn't get sneak attack in the revised version. Vivisectionist would work best imo, but that's not legal for society. Of course an arcane trickster isn't really a rogue...
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Rogues are primarily skill monkeys. Lots and lots of skills is what they do, so any effect that reduces the ability of skills reduces the effectiveness of rogues. And for some reason a rogue's skill set seems to be particularly targeted for nerfing.
Lets say that the DM is nice to the skills. He can't be nice to skills only when used by the rogue, because that's kind of cheating for the rogue, so lets say he's nice to the skills.
What does the rogue actually have in the way of class abilities that make him good at skills? He has a lot of skill ranks, that give him a lot of versatility in his skills. The problem is that this runs into some serious diminishing returns for a few reasons.
Reason 1: You don't need all of those skills on the same character.
Unless you have a scenario where the same person has to sneak past the guard, pick a lock, jump over the pit, climb the tower and then talk to the princess in the highest room at the tallest tower, having stealth disable device acrobatics, climb and diplomacy on the same character isn't necessary. Solo scenarios like that are even less rare than their contrived existence would dictate, because no one wants to spend 2 hours twiddling their thumbs while one character solos the dungeon.
Reason 2: Someone in the party can be better at a lot of the skills than you are.
All the rogue has to do a skill is rank + stat. The same as any other party member. The difference is that other classes will have higher stats. A sorcerer will have a higher charisma, and can pick up the +3 for a trained skill with a mere trait.
Thats BEFORE magic kicks in. It doesn't take long for spells and or magic to obviate the need for some skills. Climb and acrobatics become a bit irrelevant once people are flying for the entire dungeon, escape artist becomes irrelevant once freedom of movements get passed out like candy etc. Even at the low levels expeditious retreat is giving a whopping +12 to jump checks and spider climb a +8 to climb.
Reason 3: Self improvement is cheap.
Getting 1 more +hit is exponentially more expensive. Getting +5 to a skill usually around 2-5k.
Reason 4: Diminishing returns I.
When you have 2 skill points, you pick the two best skills. When you have 3 you pick the 2 best skills, then the third best skill. When you have four skill points you pick the first, second, third, and fourth best when....
By the time you get to the 8th best skill your chances of maxing out and concentrating on something really good are slim to none. This goes back to point 2. What skills are your party members going to take? The best ones.
Reason 5: Diminishing returns II Handy hobbies.
There isn't that much difference between someone that isn't maxed out in their skill vs someone that is. Once you put a rank in the skill for the +3 class bonus and the ability to roll ( sometimes giving you an effective +7 to a skill for 1 skill point) points spent after that only give you a +1. Someone spreading their skill points around isn't all that much worse than someone keeping them maxed out.
Yes,
But in actual play you get loot not WBL. And wands can be extremely useful. First level wands even more so.
Although if you are TWF you don't have the free hand for it. Which decreases the use. Solution? Don't TWF its a trap for rogues anyways.
I have no idea what you mean by you get loot, not wealth by level. You get loot that should conform to the standards of wealth by level, and the more of that loot that goes into consumables like wands, the less you are going to have over time. Not to mention wands are generally friggan expensive, and at least in my table, they only appear as treasure when they make sense (like in the pocket of a wizard you just killed). Otherwise a rogue would have to buy them or have them made, again which costs a fair bit of coin for just ONE wand, that does ONE thing, at a lower level then the rogue probably is at that point.
Wands dont solve the problem, they just trick to rogue into thinking his skill points are a valuable resource in a world where casters get spells for free.
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Roleplay shouldn't be used as a defense for a class like that imo. You can do that with a commoner, or in other games even, but it doesn't really do much to say "My class is amazing!" or "My class is mechanically functional and balanced with his peers".
<sarcasm>So ... you completely missed the part about "stupid personal anecdote" and the last line I typed?</sarcasm>
In all seriousness ...
It's a pretty thin line for Paizo to walk since a lot of the classes that can do rogue-like things "better" than rogues had those features added as archetypes or came out after rogues were out. In order to make rogues better now they have a few options, most of which aren't really desirable:
1) Go back and "fix" rogues. This would bring about epic whining from everyone who rolled a class that can do rogue-like things better than rogues.
2) Throw rogues a bone and add some feats/rogue talents/archetypes that make them really really good at specific rogue-like things. This would bring about epic whining as well
3) Change game mechanics on rogue-like things. Too complicated, and Paizo has shown they are exceptionally obtuse about clarifying/changing things.
I personally have a few house rules for rogues to make them a bit better in combat:
1) When a rogue is attacking something that would have sneak attack damage applied were the attack to hit, that rogue gets to add 1/2 their class level (rounded down, min 1) on the to-hit roll. I.E. when a 7th level rogue is flanking a bad guy, s/he gets to add +3 to their attack roll. If a 10th level rogue is invisible attack something unable to perceive them, they get to add +5 to their attack roll.
2) I have a houserule rogue talent that gives them 1 impromptu sneak attack (as per the Arcane Trickster ability) per day. This increases to an additional one every 6 levels (I.E. once up to 6th level, twice per day at 6th, 3x per day at 12th, etc, etc).
3) I've also been pondering a house rule rogue talent that lets the rogue lose dex bonus to AC for themselves in order to apply the same to the bad guy - it would be something like "You can lose your own dex bonus to AC against all creatures to allow you to force a single creature of your choice within 30' to lose their dex bonus to AC against you" - it would allow the rogue to make a sneak attack, but open that rogue up to some pretty brutal counterattacks.
I've been working on improving existing and the overall list of rogue talents for awhile now.
I'd like to see rogues get back into the game, without just ignoring them for ninjas and slayers.
2) Throw rogues a bone and add some feats/rogue talents/archetypes that make them really really good at specific rogue-like things. This would bring about epic whining as well
WHo exactly would be whinning?
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2) Throw rogues a bone and add some feats/rogue talents/archetypes that make them really really good at specific rogue-like things. This would bring about epic whining as wellWHo exactly would be whinning?
Everyone who rolled a <insert class that does something better than a rogue here> and feels like the rogue "buff" was a "nerf" to them.
See: the WoW patch effect.
2) Throw rogues a bone and add some feats/rogue talents/archetypes that make them really really good at specific rogue-like things. This would bring about epic whining as wellWHo exactly would be whinning?
Rogues OP! Nerf now!
More seriously, some people won't see the old status quo as underpowered and see the new stuff as overpowered or powercreep, even if its for the better, and companies usually aren't keen on admitting they made a mistake(or something that could be constructed as such), much less one they chose to continue doing for several years on purpose.
Yes,
But in actual play you get loot not WBL. And wands can be extremely useful. First level wands even more so.
Although if you are TWF you don't have the free hand for it. Which decreases the use. Solution? Don't TWF its a trap for rogues anyways.
I have no idea what you mean by you get loot, not wealth by level. You get loot that should conform to the standards of wealth by level, and the more of that loot that goes into consumables like wands, the less you are going to have over time. Not to mention wands are generally friggan expensive, and at least in my table, they only appear as treasure when they make sense (like in the pocket of a wizard you just killed). Otherwise a rogue would have to buy them or have them made, again which costs a fair bit of coin for just ONE wand, that does ONE thing, at a lower level then the rogue probably is at that point.
Wands dont solve the problem, they just trick to rogue into thinking his skill points are a valuable resource in a world where casters get spells for free.
WBL only works when making characters. In practice PCs don't get tons of money upon level up to spend at ye local magic mart (only goes up to 16K anyways).
Wands are also not the only thing you use. Staff DCs are fairly high and have scaling caster level. Scrolls are cheap and easy to use too.
1st level wands are also relatively cheap.
1st level wands are also relatively cheap.
4th level wands are relatively cheap. Relative things are relative.
3) I've also been pondering a house rule rogue talent that lets the rogue lose dex bonus to AC for themselves in order to apply the same to the bad guy - it would be something like "You can lose your own dex bonus to AC against all creatures to allow you to force a single creature of your choice within 30' to lose their dex bonus to AC against you" - it WOULDN'T allow the rogue to make a sneak attack, but open that rogue up to some pretty brutal counterattacks.
Made a minor change to bring it in line with other rogue talents.
1st level wands are also relatively cheap.4th level wands are relatively cheap. Relative things are relative.
This is also true.
Not really seeing how "EXPENSIVE!" is a good counterpoint. My current rogue has 5 wands, 2 staves, and 18 scrolls.
I have the scrolls because no one played a cleric. I have the staves because the wizard made them, but had little need for them. I have the wands because they are cheap and offer life-saving effects.
I have the scrolls because no one played a cleric. I have the staves because the wizard made them, but had little need for them. I have the wands because they are cheap and offer life-saving effects.
UMD is probably one of the most powerful skills in the game by virtue of emulating one of the most powerful things in the game, even if it takes investment and cash. So much so its actually the core of some people's builds in order to make a mundane class viable. Not a big fan of using it as a defense or part of a build though since its not really a part of the class itself, though some do it better than others.
3) I've also been pondering a house rule rogue talent that lets the rogue lose dex bonus to AC for themselves in order to apply the same to the bad guy - it would be something like "You can lose your own dex bonus to AC against all creatures to allow you to force a single creature of your choice within 30' to lose their dex bonus to AC against you" - it WOULDN'T allow the rogue to make a sneak attack, but open that rogue up to some pretty brutal counterattacks.Made a minor change to bring it in line with other rogue talents.
LOL
Add a greater version of the talent that allows 60 ft. range, but only if the rogue succeeds on a Knowledge (local) check.
Our rogue is rebuild because it did't contribute but now its really nice. A rogue is just a awful solo player, if you want to kill the bbeg single handed, you will fail. If you get someone to take the flanking buddy feat and max your acrobatics you won't just contribute, you will deal a lot of damage in combat. Outside of combat you rule with your skills.
Also invisible rogues are just nasty if they work with an alchemist (I drank what?).
And if they arn't into poison invisibility or just good stealth will still grand you 3 sneak attacks before anyone can say power attack.
So in a normal combat (level 5) if you make sure you get the suprise round and have a high initiative you will sneak in your suprise round, double sneak the first round using Rapid shot, watch your flanking buddy get in position. 2th round move past the bbeg using acrobatics and sneak once, 3th round double sneak using TWF. That's adding 18d6 sneak attack after 3 rounds in level 5. Seems ok for someone who is arguably the best class out of combat (trapp finding and skills)
I have the scrolls because no one played a cleric. I have the staves because the wizard made them, but had little need for them. I have the wands because they are cheap and offer life-saving effects.UMD is probably one of the most powerful skills in the game by virtue of emulating one of the most powerful things in the game, even if it takes investment and cash. So much so its actually the core of some people's builds in order to make a mundane class viable. Not a big fan of using it as a defense or part of a build though since its not really a part of the class itself, though some do it better than others.
The key thing for me is I considered taking 10 on UMD needed for things like scrolls and staves. Which Skillmastery is one of the only ways to do that. So I very much consider that part of the class. It's not even the corner stone of the rogue, it's just something good that that they can do.
NOTE: I understand some people think you can't take 10 on UMD with skillmastery. I have already said all I want on the matter on the rules forums and have no intention to discuss it here. Your(as in these people's) interpretation is known, no need to explain it.
Seems ok for someone who is arguably the best class out of combat (trapp finding and skills)
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. There are plenty of classes better at out of combat, skills, and trap finding all the same time.
The issue I have with those classes is that they don't use their skills to fight like a rogue. Pumping stealth, acrobatics, bluff, and UMD are all great out of combat, but NEEDED for in combat (create a diversion to hide mechanic is essential for non-UMD range combat. Even if you aren't running a feint rogue, a ridiculously high bluff is a serious asset).
It's one of the few classes where skill focus is a combat feat.