Well I am disallowing a Saving Throw (since it wouldn't have one), the hit points won't matter, and it's pretty much common sense in my opinion. It's just a Level 20 Barbarian right? Then ya, I got this with a single swift.
Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
If you swapped the Staff for a Greater Metamagic Rod, Quicken this is completely core for those extra bonus points.
How about waves of fatigue and later waves of exhaustion? Counters a lot of barbs.
How bout ambushing them when they aren't raging so they don't have ridiculous saves? How bout dispelling whatever they are using to fly and laughing at them.
How about waves of fatigue and later waves of exhaustion? Counters a lot of barbs.
How bout ambushing them when they aren't raging so they don't have ridiculous saves? How bout dispelling whatever they are using to fly and laughing at them.
Both are excellent options! I just wanted to stay true to my word.
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Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
You won't stop a Barbarian from attacking you. At worst he will take a -3 to all ability scores, won't matter much when he's all over you.
While all this is really, really, REALLY interesting guys, is it solving anything? Cause mostly it looks like screaming back and forth and a lot of flagged posts. Is there something one or the other of you is going to say that is going to somehow change someone's mind or are you in it just to harass the other guy? I'm seeing the same thing on half a dozen posts and it is getting old.
You won't stop a Barbarian from attacking you. At worst he will take a -3 to all ability scores, won't matter much when he's all over you.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
Rules:
"A lesser geas places a magical command on a creature to carry out some service or to refrain from some action or course of activity, as desired by you. The creature must have 7 or fewer HD and be able to understand you. While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.
The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.
If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level. A clever recipient can subvert some instructions.
If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another -2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of -8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas."
So no it will carry out my orders. The penalty is only if the creature is prevented from doing so. It does not allow the Barbarian to slip the control.
Miracle allow you to duplicate the geas-quest, geas quest can not be quickened, no geas as swift action then.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
School evocation; Level cleric/oracle 9; Domain community 9, divine 9, luck 9
CASTING Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S; see text
EFFECT Range see text
Target, Effect, or Area see text
Duration see text
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance yes
You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
•Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower.
•Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
•Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
•Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 25,000 gp in powdered diamond because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following:
•Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
•Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to a specific locale through planar barriers with no chance of error.
•Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
i.e. Miracle ACTS Geas. In otherwords, Miracle IS Geas. Try again
While all this is really, really, REALLY interesting guys, is it solving anything?... are you in it just to harass the other guy? I'm seeing the same thing on half a dozen posts and it is getting old.I agree, except for the "really interesting" part.
Indeed, I find having to correct misinformation all the time (and often things that have already been explained) gets old.
** spoiler omitted **...Miracle allow you to duplicate the geas-quest, geas quest can not be quickened, no geas as swift action then.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
It does not say you duplicate the effect, it duplicates the spell, therefore it duplicates its casting time and geas can not be quickened, the only thing that is actually stated to actually change is the DC.
Thanks for participating.
** spoiler omitted **...Miracle allow you to duplicate the geas-quest, geas quest can not be quickened, no geas as swift action then.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
It does not say you duplicate the effect, it duplicates the spell, therefore it duplicates its casting time and geas can not be quickened, the only thing that is actually stated to actually change is the DC.
Thanks for participating.
Sorry no. The casting time stays 1 standard action regardless of the spell. This is pretty useful for things like shades when mimicking summoning or create demiplane.
** spoiler omitted **...Miracle allow you to duplicate the geas-quest, geas quest can not be quickened, no geas as swift action then.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
It does not say you duplicate the effect, it duplicates the spell, therefore it duplicates its casting time and geas can not be quickened, the only thing that is actually stated to actually change is the DC.
Thanks for participating.
Geas cannot be quickened. Miracle can be. Miracle can duplicate a 6th level spell (in this case Geas). It does so in its 1 standard action casting time. Please try again.
Edit: Thoroughly ninja'd.
** spoiler omitted **...Miracle allow you to duplicate the geas-quest, geas quest can not be quickened, no geas as swift action then.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
It does not say you duplicate the effect, it duplicates the spell, therefore it duplicates its casting time and geas can not be quickened, the only thing that is actually stated to actually change is the DC.
Thanks for participating.
Geas cannot be quickened. Miracle can be. Miracle can duplicate a 6th level spell (in this case Geas). It does so in its 1 standard action casting time. Please try again.
How are you quickening a 9th level spell?
How are you quickening a 9th level spell?** spoiler omitted **...Miracle allow you to duplicate the geas-quest, geas quest can not be quickened, no geas as swift action then.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
It does not say you duplicate the effect, it duplicates the spell, therefore it duplicates its casting time and geas can not be quickened, the only thing that is actually stated to actually change is the DC.
Thanks for participating.
Geas cannot be quickened. Miracle can be. Miracle can duplicate a 6th level spell (in this case Geas). It does so in its 1 standard action casting time. Please try again.
I used Staff of the Master (Necromancy), but a Greater Metamagic Rod, Quicken would work as well.
Martials in 3.5? Lets see:
Alex Stratos - Rogue 5/Combat Trapsmith 3 (This is the character that I had to reroll to a Druid.)
Sarion Eschel - Crusader 10/Warblade 5 (Taking advantage of the "other classes are 1/2 Initiator level", so the class levels are alternated. Thicket of Blades using, ally boosting, never dying, party face).
Noraus Darkdelve - Scout 3/Rogue 16/Shadowdancer 1 (King of Stealth, tons of Sneak Attack and Skirmish dice thanks to Swift Ambusher, was able to trigger Skirmish and full attack with a barrage of arrows. Face/Knowledges/Spot and Listen along with stealth made him a scary skill master.
If we add "Gishes", then I had several 16+ BAB / 9th level spell builds, including a Chrono Legionnaire Psion/Anarchic Initiate/Slayer and a Ruby Knight Vindicator Cleric/Church Inquisitor/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Contemplative/Divine Oracle (So glad I have the sheet handy XD). I'm also rolling my Duskblades, Psychic Warriors and Factotums under this heading.
In my PF games, the closest thing to Martial that I have played thus far is my Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist Isaiah, who is the leader of the group despite very Chaotic Neutral. (Which means loves to screw with people in this case.)
Casters in PF mostly. Conjurer Wizard, Lunar Oracle, and a Gravewalker Witch. Currently looking to play a Sadist Lifeleech Soulthief Vitalist as soon as one of the other GMs runs a campaign (presently I'm about to start an E6 Pathfinder, so this may be a bit.)
Great, I found that at the highest levels in 3.5 the martials, even a skill monkey was outmatched totally by the spellcasters. How did Noraus hold up when the spellcaster could cast Superior invis or Greater invis & Non-detection?
Of those spellcasters: Conjurer Wizard, Lunar Oracle, and a Gravewalker Witch. Are any of those the hyper optimized one trick pony spellcasters you show the builds of here? They don't seem to match??
In the games you DM, how many Martials are played? How about those hyper optimized one trick pony spellcasters?
You keep showing these hyperoptimized spellcasters for one spell, like burning hands or color spray. Are these purely hypothetical theorycrafted or have you actually seen them played/or played them for extended periods?
Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
If you swapped the Staff for a Greater Metamagic Rod, Quicken this is completely core for those extra bonus points.
You can't Quicken Geas. Or a Miracle that Duplicates Geas.
I'm not sure where you're getting this "Hyperoptimized one trick pony" thing from. No one has said that or brought up such a character anyways.
Honestly curious why you're bringing it up when it's not really within the scope of this thread (outside your posts on the subject). It just seems sort of random to throw that into the conversation when it doesn't really have much relevance.
He has posted recently:
"9 Base STR+10 size Form of the Dragon 3
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting)."
and also a build built around burning hands and another around color spray. These were all to show what is under discussion here- he used them as examples of how martials are OP.
And he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself.
@DrDeth
Duplicating the spell is not casting the spell.
You cast Miracle, X spell happens as though you had cast it.
You don't cast Miracle.
"You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused."
A Miracle is entirely up to the DM. He can decide that a Miracle that makes a 10 Minute spell into one std action is not a reasonable request and that's not DM Fiat or a houserule. It's the way the spell works.
You can't Quicken Geas. Or a Miracle that Duplicates Geas.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
If you swapped the Staff for a Greater Metamagic Rod, Quicken this is completely core for those extra bonus points.
The greater quicken rod to cast miracle as a swift action can totally replicate Geas Quest.
Source?@DrDeth
Duplicating the spell is not casting the spell.
You cast Miracle, X spell happens as though you had cast it.
He has a point. It Duplicates the Spell, not the Spell effect. Thus a 10 minute Spell that is Duplicated remains 10 minutes. No where does it say the duration reduces.
The greater quicken rod to cast miracle as a swift action can totally replicate Geas Quest.You can't Quicken Geas. Or a Miracle that Duplicates Geas.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
If you swapped the Staff for a Greater Metamagic Rod, Quicken this is completely core for those extra bonus points.
Nope. If it Duplicates the spell it Duplicates the spell, including the casting time. It doesn;t say it duplicates the spell's Effect.
How is that a one trick pony build? It's a lot of stuff but it doesn't seem terribly specialized.
Huh? It's a wizard built solely and only to cast Wish for free using Blood Money. It's a build for ONE SPELL.
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He has a point. It Duplicates the Spell, not the Spell effect. Thus a 10 minute Spell that is Duplicated remains 10 minutes. No where does it say the duration reduces.Source?@DrDeth
Duplicating the spell is not casting the spell.
You cast Miracle, X spell happens as though you had cast it.
Not to mention the 25,000gp price tag.
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How is that a one trick pony build? It's a lot of stuff but it doesn't seem terribly specialized.Huh? It's a wizard built solely and only to cast Wish for free using Blood Money. It's a build for ONE SPELL.Question: How much of the Wizard's resources is this expending? One or two feats and a little over 100,000 gold? (I didn't examine in too great of depth, so the money may be off by a fair margin.)
That 'build' as you call it, is only a very small fraction of the total build. Besides that, there are many valuable/powerful spells to cast for free with blood money before Wish.
So the 'free blood money' portion of the build constitutes perhaps 5-10% of the build's resources. I'd hardly call that a build 'for one spell'
The build has yet to even be proven to work so I wouldn't even worry about it.
How is that a one trick pony build? It's a lot of stuff but it doesn't seem terribly specialized.Huh? It's a wizard built solely and only to cast Wish for free using Blood Money. It's a build for ONE SPELL.Let's see what that build cost him:
It doesn't even cost any specific feats. He could literally insert this into any wizard build as long as he has enough money (and you know, free wishes could save enough money).
He isn't capable of posting himself?
In any case, my question is : has he seen played or played himself these sorts of builds?
** spoiler omitted **...Miracle allow you to duplicate the geas-quest, geas quest can not be quickened, no geas as swift action then.Staff of the Mastery (Necromancy) allows me to quicken Miracle. Miracle allows me to duplicate Geas/Quest. The Barbarian is now under my control.
Actions taken: 1 Swift. Saves allowed: 0.
It does not say you duplicate the effect, it duplicates the spell, therefore it duplicates its casting time and geas can not be quickened, the only thing that is actually stated to actually change is the DC.
Thanks for participating.
Geas cannot be quickened. Miracle can be. Miracle can duplicate a 6th level spell (in this case Geas). It does so in its 1 standard action casting time. Please try again.
Edit: Thoroughly ninja'd.
It specifically say that the DC used the mriacale spell level (9th level spell), does it say it use the miracle casting time?
Nope. If it Duplicates the spell it Duplicates the spell, including the casting time. It doesn;t say it duplicates the spell's Effect.Nothing in the text even suggests that you have to cast both spells though. You spend a standard action to duplicate another spell, not a standard action to then cast another spell without spending a spell slot.
You'd need some sort of rules justification for your interpretation.
You duplicate the spell, not the spell effect. The only thing miracle is stated to change is the DC.
Why does miracle have a listed casting time if it doesn't use it?
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I defend martials, but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend these kind of spell loopholes don't exist.
Does shades take a 1 round to summon a creature? No? Gee golly, I wonder why?
It specifically say that the DC used the mriacale spell level (9th level spell), does it say it use the miracle casting time?Right at the top of the spell's description. "Casting time 1 standard action" not "Casting time see text".
"It doesn't say you don't!" isn't a compelling rules argument either.
You duplicate the spell, not hte spell effect. The only thing miracle is stated to change is the DC.Yes, you duplicate the spell. You don't "Gain the ability to cast the spell without expending a spell slot". You duplicate the spell with the Miracle you just cast.
I feel like people are grasping at straws when they ignore THE LISTED CASTING TIME to strengthen their argument.
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It specifically say that the DC used the mriacale spell level (9th level spell), does it say it use the miracle casting time?Right at the top of the spell's description. "Casting time 1 standard action" not "Casting time see text".
"It doesn't say you don't!" isn't a compelling rules argument either.
You duplicate the spell, not hte spell effect. The only thing miracle is stated to change is the DC.Yes, you duplicate the spell. You don't "Gain the ability to cast the spell without expending a spell slot". You duplicate the spell with the Miracle you just cast.
Actually it is. Miracle says it is duplicating the spell, not the effect. It goes out of the way to tell you that the DC for saves is as if it was a 9th level spell. Initiating Miracle is a standard action, after that the casting time could vary depending on the spell being cast. You couldn't use a Miracle to produce a Simulacrum in 1 standard action.