I have hundreds of files here, and you?That of course may change if I start to run some Frog God/Necromancer games for PF (if I ever run it again). If I used these products for AD&D 2e - .If you don't play PF, why are you here?
That wasn't meant to be antagonistic.
It was acutal curiosity.I'm here because I play PBP.
And run two.
If you don't play PF, why are you here?This forum is more than just a Paizo echo chamber.
This was a genuine question of curiosity, not something intended to be antagonistic.
Sorry if it came off that way.
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I have hundreds of files here, and you?That of course may change if I start to run some Frog God/Necromancer games for PF (if I ever run it again). If I used these products for AD&D 2e - .If you don't play PF, why are you here?
That wasn't meant to be antagonistic.
It was acutal curiosity.I'm here because I play PBP.
And run two.
Fair enough.
I used to run PF - since the beta till up to a year or so ago - how many years is that?Occasionally I will post generic ideas for AD&D/PF - like encounter tables etc. I also understand how the game works mechanically (and have tried to fix it on several occasions) so I can give observations and feedback in certain threads.
Plus this is the place to go for gaming news - I buy a lot of 3pp and they make several posts here (Frog God Games and Raging Swan are two big ones for me).
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Killed my favorite PC this weekend.
Drowned in a water and snake filled trapdoor pit. I actually feel pretty bad because he went out in such an anti-heroic manner. The player was obvs devastated but took it in stride (he is a good sport). To boot, we all forgot about Hero Points at the time when we needed them. So when the player realizes this it'll doubleback again!
Lesson to PCs: put 1 rank in Swim, esp if it's a class skill, so that a DC 10-15 Swim check combined with low dice rolls won't be your undoing.
Killed my favorite PC this weekend.
Drowned in a water and snake filled trapdoor pit. I actually feel pretty bad because he went out in such an anti-heroic manner. The player was obvs devastated but took it in stride (he is a good sport). To boot, we all forgot about Hero Points at the time when we needed them. So when the player realizes this it'll doubleback again!
Lesson to PCs: put 1 rank in Swim, esp if it's a class skill, so that a DC 10-15 Swim check combined with low dice rolls won't be your undoing.
I've made two no-swim charecters that are notable for it.
Oozula ( a gold kobold who quite dislikes water)
And Adon, who's a martial, who has the weaksause weakness of "super drowning skills" compared to everyone else.
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I also understand how the game works mechanically (and have tried to fix it on several occasions) so I can give observations and feedback in certain threads.Just out of curiosity, what elements were you trying to fix?
Oh boy...
- Big Six
- Skill System Part I - Binary and exploitable skills system/+X determines skill success not the actual training or ranks invested.
- Save Paradigm
- Skill System Part II: Skill point allocation not determined by Int+mod - instead muscle memory sp, technical sp, knowledge sp, etc. Actually I was looking at several replacement systems for the 3/x PF system.
- Spell System Part I/Skill System Part III: Spells that trump skills and classes. Entire class abilities negated by spells. Class ability protectionism (as a re-design philosophy).
- Spell System Part II: Making spells follow a risk/reward paradigm. Aka getting rid of "no risk magic".
- Magic Items: divorced from spells (not entirely, but mostly)
- Spell System Part III: DC system, result success more closely tied to level vs. mutable/exploitable system taking numbers out of level range. Same problem with the exploitable Skill system, only 100x more of an impact on game play and power balance since a failed save can kill.
I'm sure I'm forgetting (thankfully) a few things. In the end I was exhausted experimenting with rule and changes to get the game play I experience I wanted and also keeping optimized players as challenged as less optimized players in the same group. Too much work and not fun.
Since the problems with earlier editions were less and there was more focus on game play than character mini-game we switched back.
At the end of the day, the only thing I really like about 3/x was the scalable monsters, monster templates and some (not all) of the universal monster rules - those I am porting over to 2nd ed.
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At the end of the day, the only thing I really like about 3/x was the scalable monsters, monster templates and some (not all) of the universal monster rules - those I am porting over to 2nd ed.As I mentioned in another thread, I dropped PF and 3.5 to go back to 1e, but after realizing that I wanted a skill system like PF's and a few of the feats, along with a few other details from the 3.5 combat system, I decided to modify Mongoose's Conan RPG to move it back toward 1e.
I decided on Conan because it has elements that lean that direction already, and it has Parry/Dodge defense + armor-as-DR instead of the AC system, two elements I've always wanted to incorporate into 1e.
I may not use the PF skill system but I am always up for examining a game to see if it has other features I may like.
And armor as DR is a good replacement for AC (old or new school) systems. DR as armor is the default for Gamma III (wider damage and hit points, so more number ranges to make it work) and my players prefer it that way.
Thanks for the pointer -I'll take a look at the system.
Hm. Not bad. Be a good risk to fighting thieves, pirates and rust monsters.Well, it was more the 'beat them down and sell them into slavery with nothing but a loincloth' idea.
I was actually going to mention slavers as a fourth way, but I figured people would be confused since the "in order to capture you they take your gear" logic isn't totally direct.
As for GM kill rates: Leave your GMs alone, guys. Mess with the wrong one, you just might find yourself in way over your head.
Oozula ( a gold kobold who quite dislikes water)
This reminds me of the time I ran a troglodyte game with the sole premise that everyone had alphabetical names based on misspellings/typoes of ATLA character names.
A few examples:Prince Guko
Uncle Hiroh
Izula
Oozula sounds like she'd make a badass addition to that team. Oozula: The Last Oozebender! Or something.
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I've never killed a PC before. My dice however are cold blooded murderers who refuse to cower behind a GM screen.
I prefer to allow the PCs in my games to make poor decisions and get themselves killed. When the constabulary arrives, my hands are so much cleaner. Plus, as GM I've many mooks to move the bodies.
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Oozula ( a gold kobold who quite dislikes water)This reminds me of the time I ran a troglodyte game with the sole premise that everyone had alphabetical names based on misspellings/typoes of ATLA character names.
A few examples:
Prince Guko
Uncle Hiroh
IzulaOozula sounds like she'd make a badass addition to that team. Oozula: The Last Oozebender! Or something.
She's a diplomancer.
Killed two characters last session in my 5e game. I rolled a Crit on a spell so I decided to roll the damage on the player side of the screen. 6d10 on a second level rogue/wizard. Then the Barbarian/Fighter went down and failed three death saves.
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Without the threat of death in the game, there is no excitement about combat.I just can't agree with this statement. Death is not the only consequence of failure.
I don't take joy in killing PCs but I do do it. I put ample road blocks and caution comes around encounters that are high risk, but even in a safe encounter death could happen.
The chance of failure, and death is one of many modes of failure, but the chance of it gives meaning to success. Other modes of failure is your treasure escapes, (which death can often be commuted into antreasure tax), or a plot fork (dragon ate the local lord, new lord is less sympathetic to the heroes who let his father die)
I don't seem to kill, it often comes to the nature of a creature. A hunting non-intelligent creature might retreat with an unconscious body. Giving the party ample time to intercept and engage. An unintelligent creature in its lair will attack the nearer threat until subdued and then move onto the next until all foes are down then start eating. A non-CE intelligent creature will generally attempt to subdue all foes in the order of apparent threat and then kill or capture the unconscious as appropriate to their needs. A CE creature especially an outsider will reveal in death and brutally slay the foe it is focused on even at its own folly or risk, because it is that irrationally evil. The caveat that if a party is healing up unconscious foes a creature with iterative attacks wugh no other targets in range may double tap and unconscious foe, and tm would prioratize the healer as the next target.
Question: Has anyone Coup de graced a PC?
I mean...it's one thing to kill a PC in battle , but Coup de grace is the next level of evil.
Ambush was detected and the Cleric acted first buffing the party who then quickly took off leaving the cleric behind. The cleric then wanted to spend another more round buffing himself as the party continued on ahead. At one point a player said..."this does not feel right".
The forward ambush was only the bait and they took it hook line & sinker. The real ambush came from behind as an assassin ganked the cleric. As the party turned around and ran back to save their friend I had time and a helpless PC...so I did what any good assassin would do and finish the job. He still had a round to get away and he did just that.
Player was royally pissed but more so at the other players for running so far ahead to get into combat while he lost a round of movement buffing them. Particularly since they were heading into a den of assassins and thieves. He had zero animosity towards me for it but oooooman did I feel bad.
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I have attempted to use it, and seen it used. My paladin was lucky enough to survive one such instance with a VERY high saving throw. Almost every time the opportunity has come up, there have been other actions that make more sense tactically, so I have yet to kill a PC with it.
Edit: Ah, I recall using it in my Razor Coast campaign, but that was specifically with the blessing of the player as he wanted a way to roll a new character more in tune with the party.
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Question: Has anyone Coup de graced a PC?
I mean...it's one thing to kill a PC in battle , but Coup de grace is the next level of evil.
I think it was in the Dungeon Adventure - The Moor-Tomb map, or maybe another one.
The player with the Ranger character was dropped to negative hp by the bandit lord (was in 2e) who then took a couple of rounds during the middle of combat to hack the players head off. This was pre - Coup de grace rules, so it took a few rounds to finish the task.
The players were horrified. That being said, the end for the rest of the group came quickly (tpk).
the bandit lord (was in 2e) who then took a couple of rounds during the middle of combat to hack the players head off.
Wow, that is grizzly!
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the bandit lord (was in 2e) who then took a couple of rounds during the middle of combat to hack the players head off.Wow, that is grizzly!
I could have swore it was written the module - that the leader or 2nd in command was so brutal and crazy that he would do this during the middle of combat.
Going back and re-reading it though, I can't seem to find that combat tactic listed. Go figure.
They had a good time.
I have.
That, coincidentally, also happened to be the first time EVER that I'd killed a PC.
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Question: Has anyone Coup de graced a PC?
I mean...it's one thing to kill a PC in battle , but Coup de grace is the next level of evil.
** spoiler omitted **
I have, there are really two scenarios, a PC at nearly full HP who is helpless because they are pinned/held/paralyzed etc. or a PC who is already bleeding out and really one hit would do it. In the first case, the bad guys will do it because it makes the most tactical sense. That hold isn't going to last and it removes a enemy from battle in one shot. They of course get a save, but frankly the PCs are as likely to do it back, so I will do that one remorselessly. The second case, falls under the category of my post above, only the really evil guys will kick a guy when they are down, and only because they are crazy. So a glabrezeu would take the time to pinch the head off a paladin, would probably even eat the AO to do it. A dragon would be smarter then that, and just make sure the paladin was in the cone of his next breath weapon, just for efficiency sake.
When it comes to how bad are the bad guys, I'm going to go with a movie quote:
Remember the bad guys on the shows you used to watch on Saturday mornings? Well, these guys aren't like those guys. They won't exercise restraint because you are children. They *will* kill you if they get the chance. Do *not* give them that chance.
Maybe the cruelest death from a pure player frustration / shame perspective was when they were torn apart by an unruly mob of peasants (pitchforks, torches and gothic rags included.) The party was ~level 5-6, and had the option to get out of there, but they were convinced that they could control the crowed by beating them back with non-lethal (and lethal damage.) The mob was indirectly mad at them, but when you suddenly find yourself surrounded by commoners who attempt to grapple you, they effectively can aid another you into your grave. Sure 1 peasant isn't scary, but when he has +14 to his CMD from his allies, then you becomes quickly grappled, pinned, and killed. I think the PC was horrified to realize that he was offed by a CR 1/4-13 creature, but the whole encounter was actually probably CR5 or 6.
Question: Has anyone Coup de graced a PC?
I mean...it's one thing to kill a PC in battle , but Coup de grace is the next level of evil.
Yes, both in Carrion Crown. One by a skeleton, another by a Ghoul. Both times due to paralysis. Both on the same player, poor guy.
Yes, both in Carrion Crown. One by a skeleton, another by a Ghoul. Both times due to paralysis. Both on the same player, poor guy.Question: Has anyone Coup de graced a PC?
I mean...it's one thing to kill a PC in battle , but Coup de grace is the next level of evil.
He had it coming. Someone with luck that bad is just asking for it.
In the homebrew universe that I run my campaigns in, within the lore I have created a sort of 'purgatory' called the 'Madness Plane'. In the Madness Plane, I separate players from the group and do a sort of side quest with them there. In the lore, the madness plane is where one battles their inner demons to find penance with the gods before being sent to either Hell, Heaven, or Galmorrah. In the Madness Plane, dead players face their 'inner demons', regrets of their characters life and all that fun jazz. This basically is to keep the player occupied while the other players discuss how they want to fix the situation, whether it's resurrection or making a deal with the devil, or even using 'Plane Shift' and going to the Madness Plane in physical form to return the soul to it's body.
I've killed and watched people kill numerous characters in the past, but most recently I've killed only two. One was because the players were tired of killing intelligent enemies. One player literally said, "You know, we never actually TALK with any of these evil characters, we just attack on sight. Maybe next time we should talk to one and go with a nonviolent approach." It was honestly an admirable thing to do, but the next 'villain' they faced was a Lich who was the boss of a dungeon I created. The Lich held a sacred magical skull that a native group worshipped, and the players were going to take it back.
The group had a Lawful Evil character in their party, but she understood how to be not only an Lawful Evil but also work with the group, even if the characters wishes were malevolent. She initiated the conversation with the Lich because she wanted to know if there was anything to gain from talking with it. The Lich 'promised' to grant the player a magical weapon, but only if she killed the natives living in the region. She could smell that the Lich was lying and knew that she would never convince the group to attack the people living nearby.
However, our Chaotic /Stupid/ Rogue heard the words magic and weapon together, so he immediately jumped into the conversation. The Lich saw his interest and offered the same deal, but the Rogue proposed a counter offer: Give HIM the magic weapon and then he would kill the natives with such an awesome weapon. The Lich, not being completely retarded, asked if the Rogue thought it was a fool and refused. Being an idiot, the Chaotic Stupid Rogue attempted to argue with it, telling the group he could get something out of the Lich and they wouldn't need to fight it.
Failing almost every single Charisma based skill save imaginable, the Lich demonstrated its power on the stupid Rogue, casting a spell that dropped him to Zero and below. Fortunately, the new sorcerer could save him, and she asked if the group agreed that after she saved him that combat should be initiated. The Rogue then said, "No, I want to die." The group was shocked by this and he told us that he wanted to kill off his current character and then become a cleric because he thought that the current Lawful Evil Cleric was 'cool'. Frustrated at his stupidity, I told him he could but that I have a rule (a rule I stuck by after 8 years of all this) which is that if a character dies, you start at one again.
I've made it so that dying is a very difficult thing to accomplish unless you are in a dungeon or in a 'story mission'. That being said, he wasn't too happy that he was now no longer a level 6 Rogue (which the party NEEDED) and now a Level 1 Damaging Cleric (which the party already had, at level 6 even).
The second time was because two advanced players thought it would be somehow 'funny' to initiate a new girl to the group by killing off her character immediately after making her character, therefore eliminating the character and forcing her to start over again. I swiftly responded by enacting the 'God Card', something I hope GM's never use because they break games, but I felt bad for the girl and the two guys were being a!&*#+~s. She was a Support Cleric who followed the god of Justice and Healing in our campaign universe. As such, the god from heaven resurrected her player and struck down the other players. Because I was pissed and they were now dead, I told them to rip their sheets and leave my house, not returning until the next week.
I think that as long as players know that there is a chance of having the dead character coming back, it's alright to kill them. I also, sometimes for story purposes, plot with players whose characters have deep connections with certain other PC's or NPC's. Their death at the hands of the BBEG means that others seek vengeance or justice. The dead player I recommend sitting out a few sessions until a period in the story where they can be revived through a heroic act or something via the story, whatever the stories plot is.
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I ran a 3.5 campaign in college over a period of five semesters. The number of sessions is impossible to calculate with any accuracy, but it's roughly 60-65.
I had six character deaths in the campaign, so about one in ten sessions involved someone dying. This may seem like a lot, but there were a couple of common factors.
Death #1: Half-elf druid 1, killed in fight with zombie moose.
Death #2: Human fighter 8, playing 3.5 conversion of White Plume Mountain. Drowned while navigating murky water alone in full plate; fell down 10-foot dropoff. Same player as #1.
Death #3: Human scout 8, also playing White Plume Mountain. Killed in fight with werewolf sorcerer and human fighter.
Death #4: Half-elf fighter 8, also playing White Plume Mountain. Attempted to jump platforms over boiling mud pit, fell, was cooked. Same player as #1.
Death #5: Half-elf paladin 10, playing 3.5 conversion of Tomb of Horrors. Killed by demons summoned after Player #1 attempted to use summoned Xorn to map out dungeon by bypassing walls.
Death #6: Half-elf druid 11, killed in fight with either a mature/old black dragon or a group of tendriculos. Same player as #1.
As you can see, all but one of the deaths involved the same player. Player #1 was actually a real-life adrenaline junkie who would undertake crazy stunts and laugh about them afterward. This tendency seems to have transferred over to his playstyle.
Also, 2/3 of the deaths took place in converted 1e modules, which are well known for their deadliness. White Plume Mountain in particular was responsible for half the death toll. I am genuinely surprised that the infamous Tomb of Horrors only killed one character, however, and that it took a Player #1-induced encounter to do it.
I am currently running the same campaign for a different group, and though I could convert the modules to Pathfinder I am thinking of leaving them at their less-powerful 3.5 version due to their previous lethality.
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Also, 2/3 of the deaths took place in converted 1e modules, which are well known for their deadliness. White Plume Mountain in particular was responsible for half the death toll. I am genuinely surprised that the infamous Tomb of Horrors only killed one character, however, and that it took a Player #1-induced encounter to do it.
Did you run the weaker Wotc 3.5 conversion of Tomb, or did you convert it yourself?
I've run both, with deaths in 1st and 2nd run-throughs and to my surprise - I had a few die in the 9th level wotc version (which was a bit weak). That is in addition to changing alignment, changing sex, teleported without gear - etc.
Probably best to not pull all the levers down.
Tay Tay you so cray cray!
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I could have TPKed the party last night. Four were unconcious, one paralyzed. I decided to give the paralyzed guy a chance instead of just declaring it over. He came out of the effect a round or so after the last party member fell. It was pretty close but he managed to finish the enemy off.
I like to play monsters logically or at least how I think they would react. Now at lower levels I tend to hold back, but somewhere around level 5, whatever happens is what happens. That does not mean you can everyone is safe before level 5, but I am less tactical before then. I do not do the monster attacks a random PC. He will attack whoever has annoyed him the most and/or whoever he thinks is the most dangerous, assuming he can get to them.
I am not out to kill a PC, but I am not going to save one either. I might give you an OoC warning if you are really about to make a bad decision. That might come in the form of "Do you really want to do that".
I also tend to adjust the difficulty knob to the party, however it only goes down so far. At the least the party should be able to handle stock monsters.
Do I feel bad when a PC dies? A little. Does it stop me from doing it? Nope.
For some strange reason I have no problem dropping a fireball on someone when I know it will kill them even if they make the save, but I have yet to coup de grace a PC. When you really look at it, if they have enough hit points the coup de grace might give them some chance to live.
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Death is a part of the game Tay Tay. That's why there's a lot of rules for what happens during and after the process.
But it's probably really hard to read them from up on that high horse, so I guess you're forgiven.
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In organized play I have one perma-kill (a kill without a rez) and a couple what I call soft kills, meaning the character was rezed.
The perma kill was against a level 1, pure caster character who ate two crits from a fast zombie in a single turn. I was rolling in the open so I couldn't fudge them, but the player was ok with it, this being the second scenario the char had done.
I also have one fallen paladin under my belt, which I am quite proud of, who, over the course of a scenario (mists of Miwangi iirc) he constantly intimidated innocents they had rescued. I gave him several ques this was wrong, the rest of the party kept telling him to stop, fourth time I was sick of it and his god gave the paladin notice by melting his holy symbol.
In homebrew I have a few more kills, though those are generally from... lets call it inter-party conflict.
when I do kill someone its generally either from random chance or as a sever punishment for someone doing something stupid. I once killed someone without a roll because he was intent on picking a fight with an army, refused to back down and I didn't want to grind out the massive number of rolls which that fight woulda required. He was level 5, the army was a thousand or so people... Oddly he was upset he wouldn't do the fight with him. Seemed to accept he was dead, but wanted to do the battle which likely could have taken several hours, real life time knowing this player, only involved him and not the other players.
Generally I only kill as a last resort or with player consent. Sad to say but I am not a George R.R. Martin and don't want to go through that many player characters. NPCs, however, are not protected.
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As GM I can proudly say I've never killed a PC. I root for them and hope they are successful in all that they do.
However, my dice do not like player characters at all and have murdered several despite many attempts to switch up my rolling technique. Overhand, underhand, on a book, off a book, shaken well... it matters not. They tumble across the table heartlessly drinking deep the tears of lesser gamers.
I typically kill off a couple of characters per campaign. Mostly through their own overthinking and trying to outsmart the gm. Not that I have any and all bases covered, I just use fairly generic fights with a couple of traps and different spells/lighting/environment to alter the actual feel and flow of the encounters. Last PC I wiped off the map was from a crit, because hey, crit happens.
I think I've killed more or less two characters per campaign. Not for a lack of trying, but my guys are genuinely good at avoiding character death, especially at the higher levels. Also, I am not perfect in adjusting AP encounters so that they always threaten competently built player characters.
Seriously, where is Turin? I think he'd win this thread hands-down with his GM'ing style. ^^
I think I've killed more or less two characters per campaign. Not for a lack of trying, but my guys are genuinely good at avoiding character death, especially at the higher levels. Also, I am not perfect in adjusting AP encounters so that they always threaten competently built player characters.
Seriously, where is Turin? I think he'd win this thread hands-down with his GM'ing style. ^^
I have no idea what you're talking about. ^^
The dead pile up over time, but it'll be a while before I can make a throne of their skulls.
Their twisted and broken forms though, hilarious display pieces in my memory.
I have no idea what you're talking about. ^^I think I've killed more or less two characters per campaign. Not for a lack of trying, but my guys are genuinely good at avoiding character death, especially at the higher levels. Also, I am not perfect in adjusting AP encounters so that they always threaten competently built player characters.
Seriously, where is Turin? I think he'd win this thread hands-down with his GM'ing style. ^^
I remember semi-fondly your Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign journal, with the "send in the clones" set-up. ;)