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Hello everyone!
Okay I want to start out saying that I read all the guides to the Arcane Trickster. Read them, they're great. You know, if I was 15th level, or had infinity gold. But my character is not 15th level and definitely doesn't have infinity gold.
My character is level 5, we're playing the Shattered Star campaign, just entering Book 2. I'm looking to play this character for the long haul, so I don't want to make bad decisions right now that will turn out a gimped character in the long run. I feel like it's pretty easy to end up with a gimpy Arcane Trickster just because of a few misinformed decisions in the beginning.
Okay so here she is:
Zynn Norena - human
2 Rogue / 3 Wizard Evoker
STR - 12
DEX - 16
CON - 13
INT - 17
WIS - 10
CHA - 10
Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Improved Initiative
Toughness
MISSING ONE
AC 17
Weapons:
Masterwork shortsword +1
Dagger (regular type)
Crossbow (regular type)
Armor:
Studded leather
Buckler
Rogue Trick:
Bleeding attack
Evocation Wizard, Opposed: Enchantment & Necromancy
Spells Known:
1 - Floating Disk, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Shield, Vanish, Color Spray, Disguise Self, Touch of Gracelessness
2 - Scorching Ray, Invisibility
I think that's all the pertinent information. Obviously I need a feat. The two 2nd level spells I picked can change too, because I'm just leveling up to 5.
Any advice?? I need a plan, and I have no plan! I still need another level of rogue before I can even take my first level of Arcane Trickster. I feel like this is perhaps not a class you should start at level 1, from reading the guides it really seems like you need some rockin' magical items in order to be functional that you def don't get at level 1 and may not ever find.
NEED HELP. :D!
Doesn't look too bad. For your feat, I'd take Great Fortitude, as that is your weakest save. Nothing sucks like a failed saving throw! Every little bonus helps.
Spell Penetration would be good at 7th. You don't see a lot of SR around 5th, but you'll see more and more of it as you level up. It'll always be there for you.
1) For your 5th-level feat, take Arcane Armor Training. Otherwise, you will be rolling for spell failure most of the time (since you lack mage armor and are wearing armor); additionally, you should be able to upgrade to a mithral chain shirt (1,100 gp; +4 AC, +6 Max. Dex), which only has a 10% Arcane Spell Failure (reduced to 0% with Arcane Armor Training). You can always use Retraining to change it to something else around 12th character level (when you gain 5th-level spell slots and Quicken Spell becomes an option for your swift action).
2) You should start transitioning from melee to ranged focus. With 1d6 hp per level and poor BAB, the arcane trickster is not suited for the skirmisher/flanker combat role that many people envision for a rogue; one of its main strengths (IMO) is as a ranged touch blaster (using Sneak Attack to increase the damage dice). Use Retraining to switch Weapon Finesse to Point Blank Shot and consider Precise Shot as your 7th-level feat (even with ranged touch attacks, the -4 penalty for ranged attacks into melee can suck); also, upgrade to a masterwork composite (+1 Str) shortbow (450 gp).
3) For future feat choices, Intensified Spell (increase damage cap by 5 dice) and Reach Spell (change a touch spell to a Close ranged touch attack) can provide some options for low-level spells (for instance, an Intensified Reach shocking grasp for an up to 10d6 ranged touch electricity attack spell as a 3rd-level spell slot is comparable to fireball or lightning bolt, but can be used to Sneak Attack, which area spells can't until hitting the arcane trickster capstone). Also, as an evoker, you hopefully chose the Admixture sub-school to change the type of elemental damage on the fly (which makes spell selection much easier).
Just wanted to say thank you to folks who responded already.
@Goblin Hood - I've seen both of the guides posted, but the sample characters might give me something to work towards. Thank you!
@A Highly Regarded Expert - OMG A CELEBRITY. I read your guide quite a few times! Thank you for writing it, I'm sure I will continue to use it.
@Dragonchess Player - I actually didn't even know Retraining existed. That makes some of these decisions a whole lot less stressful, ha! I def agree with the Arcane Armor Training, I'll have to grab that. Reach spell sounds very handy. I did take the Admixture sub-school.
- A further question, if I could chose one basic magical item right now, what would the best thing be? My character doesn't have a whole lot of funds to work with at the moment, but one item to work towards might be a good thing. There's so many options! Sniper goggles? Spiderclimb boots? Something to give me darkvision? A stat item? I can't get everything!
Thanks!
:) my pleasure!
so it depends on how many GPs do you have?
Do you want it roleplay oriented or utility?
has a caster Handy Haversack always fit.. heaband of intelligence..
With Arcane Armor training, go for a mithral shirt and add pluses when you can afford to. A lot of it has to do with what your party can craft, if anything.
A ring of invisibility is out of your league for a while, but if you have a ring for your bonded object, you can enchant it yourself for 10,000, instead of paying 20,000.
Here's a 20th level trickster I'm playing right now in a PbP. You'll notice he's crafted the heck out of his ring! XD
Other than the mithral chain shirt and masterwork composite shortbow, a wand of acid splash (375 gp) can be an inexpensive pick-up (assuming you prepare ray of frost as your damage cantrip) to help conserve your admixture school power uses. Other useful low-cost magic items to look at are a ring of protection (2,000 gp), a robe of needles (1,000 gp), an aegis of recovery (1,500 gp), a cloak of the hedge wizard (Transmutation) (2,500 gp), burglar's bracers (1,050 gp), an efficient quiver (1,800 gp), a handy haversack (2,000 gp), and a pearl of power (1st) (1,000 gp). You won't be able to afford all of these right now, but they may be worth obtaining in the near future.
A wand of vanish (CL 2) (1,500 gp) may be your most cost-effective purchase at this time, though.
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The thing to understand about Arcane Trickster is that you're a spellcaster. You get sneak attack progression, true, but with your low BAB and the full spellcasting progression the Prestige Class gains, don't trick yourself into thinking you're a combat-oriented class.
You can do some pretty nifty things by combining touch spells with your sneak attack, and that's fine and all, but you are, first and foremost, a wizard class that has some skills and nifty tricks with which to use them. Make sure you take the usual variety of spells wizards take, and trust that the few blasty spells you DO prep are used to their fullest by capitalizing on sneak attack as much as possible.
Buffs are great, and summons make great flanking partners for you AND your allies. Aid Other from a horde of weak summoned creatures can ensure that your attacks/spells hit, as well as those of your allies. Feats won't matter much, but you definitely wanna get a mithril buckler to enchant pretty soon, as it doesn't have arcane spell failure.
I've played two tricksters into higher levels now (teens) and love them. I started both from level 1, and while you do have a valley of suck, its not a terrible valley of suck, and you should be viable and able to contribute at every level. But your absolutely right, tricksters are probably easier than most classes to mess up. Its also one of the most fulfilling and fun classes. With the new entry rules I'm messing around with making a shaman divine trickster in the near future...
I digress. I'd avoid melee like the plague. I avoided it with both my characters, and the few times I went in got deadly fast, so I'd look into training out weapon finesse if your GM allows retraining. Some feats to keep in mind for:
Point blank shot - precise shot: Helps with ranged SA
Improved Initiative - Going first is full of wins. Not having always act in the surprise round probably makes this less useful, but if your good you should be able to act twice before the enemy gets to act. Under some of my best set-ups I'd have a Sepia Snake Sigil. Upon enemy reading it you unleash a blast in the surprise round, enemies don't get to act because +50 stealth, they didn't notice. Then I get another blast and get somewhere else:) Let party finish the rest.
Skill Focus (Stealth) - Hellcat's Stealth: This can be invaluable before you can be under improved invisibility as much as you want. After that, you may still want it for those times (which become more and more frequent as you level up) where invisibility is negated.
Shadowstrike - More SA's
Dampen Presence - You can now stealth past most things. Eventually you will be flying all day which blocks tremorsense, so then its really just scent to deal with.
Arcane Blast - May be useful for dealing with SR creatures. I prefer not to deal with SR when possible, unfortunately blaster casters have a hard time of this. This is one way to deal with it rather than Spell Penetration.
Great Fortitude - Your fort sucks, you want this.
Toughness - More HP's are good.
Additional Traits - There are so many good traits its hard to underestimate the value of this feat.
Otherwise, get a few rods of reach, and sniper goggles as soon as you can. You really need to find a way to get reliable Darkvision, luckily its a spell on your list, so you can just cast it when you need it eventually.
I really wouldn't worry about AC too much. I was never able to get it to the point where it mattered with either character. Instead, play like a wizard and make it so you don't get attacked! Thats your best defense, positioning/stealth/allies/cover/flying/underground/illusions/decoy ring. Mostly good stealth though.
Hmm. I wonder if greensting slayer's (Magus archetype) backstab ability qualifies for Arcane Trickster. If it does, you could enter through something silly like Ninja1/Greensting1/Srcyer2 and only lose 2 spell levels.
I saw this addressed in another thread and the answer was pretty much raw is no. I could see gms allowing it though. I think I'd probably allow it. Theoretically if you had a 2nd level spell like ability you could qualify for at after ninja 1/greensting one.
You can also qualify with sleepless detective 1/ninja(rogue) 1 and only loose 2 spell levels, but you can't qualify until level 7 then for at, which before early entry was the earliest you could get in anyway.
@Under A Bleeding Sun - Thank you for your experienced advice!
I will definitely be referencing this thread for future level-ups! For now, I think I'm going to talk to my GM about retraining the Weapon Finesse, I'll take Arcane Armor Training for my 5th level feat. I'll probably stick with my current spell selection, and in the future I'll be taking some ranged combat feats.
@A Highly Regarded Expert - I don't know if my gaming group is out of the norm but in the 10+ years I've been playing with them no one has crafted anything. I'm not sure why but that's just a section of gameplay that we've ignored. Not that my DM wouldn't allow it if I asked. Usually for magical items we just work with what we find or buy. Might be worth broaching the subject though...
Many other posters have good advice, here is mine to add. I generally don't like playing PrCs unless you get early entry, because they are specifically designed not to be more powerful than a base character. Arcane Trickster is one of the worst in this regard because it is balanced against Rogue one of the weakest classes. I would retrain to Rogue 3/ Wizard (Scryer) 1/ Arcane Trickster 1 and get by without the benefits of Admixture school. Admixture is awesome but it works much better for someone who didn't give up 3 levels of casting. Your damage as a AT comes from sneak attack not feats and bloodline arcana. Spells like Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray can carry your sneak attack while Fireball and Burning Hands can't. I also think for a touch attack specialist like an AT Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are important and Weapon Finesse is less so. Unless you plan on Chill Touch + sneak attack, you aren't going to have any reason to get in melee, and you have no real defense. I think the armor is a mistake as well. Mage Armor lasts 1 hour/level and Pearls of Power for 1st level spells are cheap.
Many other posters have good advice, here is mine to add. I generally don't like playing PrCs unless you get early entry, because they are specifically designed not to be more powerful than a base character. Arcane Trickster is one of the worst in this regard because it is balanced against Rogue one of the weakest classes. I would retrain to Rogue 3/ Wizard (Scryer) 1/ Arcane Trickster 1 and get by without the benefits of Admixture school.
I don't see how you could gain entry into the Arcane Trickster with only 1 level of Wizard? One of the requirements was being able to cast 2nd level spells. Is there something I'm missing?
I don't see how you could gain entry into the Arcane Trickster with only 1 level of Wizard? One of the requirements was being able to cast 2nd level spells. Is there something I'm missing?
This ruling explicitly states that it can be done. The Scryer subschool of Divination gives you a SLA that counts as a 3rd level arcane spell. The wording of Arcane Trickster is: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher. So while it wouldn't qualify you for Mystic Theurge it does qualify you for Arcane Trickster if you can cast Mage Hand, which you can as a level 1 Wizard.
Many other posters have good advice, here is mine to add. I generally don't like playing PrCs unless you get early entry, because they are specifically designed not to be more powerful than a base character. Arcane Trickster is one of the worst in this regard because it is balanced against Rogue one of the weakest classes. I would retrain to Rogue 3/ Wizard (Scryer) 1/ Arcane Trickster 1 and get by without the benefits of Admixture school. Admixture is awesome but it works much better for someone who didn't give up 3 levels of casting. Your damage as a AT comes from sneak attack not feats and bloodline arcana. Spells like Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray can carry your sneak attack while Fireball and Burning Hands can't. I also think for a touch attack specialist like an AT Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are important and Weapon Finesse is less so. Unless you plan on Chill Touch + sneak attack, you aren't going to have any reason to get in melee, and you have no real defense. I think the armor is a mistake as well. Mage Armor lasts 1 hour/level and Pearls of Power for 1st level spells are cheap.
The diviner SLA is a 3rd level SLA. By the ruling you need a 2nd level SLA. Basically, be a tiefling or aasmir variant class. Its more for Bloatmage or Eldritch Knight.
Otherwise, I believe the advice is sound.
The diviner SLA is a 3rd level SLA. By the ruling you need a 2nd level SLA. Basically, be a tiefling or aasmir variant class.
The OP has stated that the character who would become an Arcane Trickster is a human. I suppose that there is a rather reactionary rule that says you can't retrain into a prestige class from a standard class after someone tried to retrain all their Fighter levels into Hellknight. So it doesn't really matter in the end because the character is past the point of optimal return, but you can totally qualify for AT with Mage Hand and Time Stop if you want, it says 2nd level or higher not 2nd level.
Many other posters have good advice, here is mine to add. I generally don't like playing PrCs unless you get early entry, because they are specifically designed not to be more powerful than a base character. Arcane Trickster is one of the worst in this regard because it is balanced against Rogue one of the weakest classes. I would retrain to Rogue 3/ Wizard (Scryer) 1/ Arcane Trickster 1 and get by without the benefits of Admixture school. Admixture is awesome but it works much better for someone who didn't give up 3 levels of casting. Your damage as a AT comes from sneak attack not feats and bloodline arcana. Spells like Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray can carry your sneak attack while Fireball and Burning Hands can't. I also think for a touch attack specialist like an AT Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are important and Weapon Finesse is less so. Unless you plan on Chill Touch + sneak attack, you aren't going to have any reason to get in melee, and you have no real defense. I think the armor is a mistake as well. Mage Armor lasts 1 hour/level and Pearls of Power for 1st level spells are cheap.The diviner SLA is a 3rd level SLA. By the ruling you need a 2nd level SLA. Basically, be a tiefling or aasmir variant class. Its more for Bloatmage or Eldritch Knight.
Otherwise, I believe the advice is sound.
The requirement is: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.
So the diviner SLA works fine in this case.
Well I got egg on my face! Most of them are pretty specific. I do agree early entry is awesome and you don't loose anything using early entry.
I don't see how you could gain entry into the Arcane Trickster with only 1 level of Wizard? One of the requirements was being able to cast 2nd level spells. Is there something I'm missing?
Honestly, you probably can't. Most non-PFS GMs don't use the FAQ ruling listed above. Also the Retraining rules are exceptionally optional. Check with your GM if you wish.
Sounds like you've got a very interesting character going (and probably one of the best APs for it too!). My only advice would be to recognize that you are a very versatile character. Pluses to that is the ability to handle lots of situations; minuses is that you have to devote resources to handle them effectively.
I'd recommend you focus your permanent/limited resources (feats, skill points) into a few strengths, and use your expandable resources (primarily gold) towards versatility (scrolls, wands, items) to expand your repertoire. So don't take Weapon Finesse *and* Point Blank Shot, and don't spread your skill points too thin (very tempting when you have *THAT* many class skills).
I allow them and the gm in the game I'm playing allow them. I think the early entry rules are a great addition to the ruleset. I was initially against them but once I actually saw what they affected I thought it was great, and my level 2 eldritch knight players character is awesome. I also allow retraining, I think they are a great addition to the rules, though I did bump up the price a little. It allows for some really cool combos/builds that would normally be to prohibitive to actually try otherwise.
I don't see how you could gain entry into the Arcane Trickster with only 1 level of Wizard? One of the requirements was being able to cast 2nd level spells. Is there something I'm missing?This ruling explicitly states that it can be done. The Scryer subschool of Divination gives you a SLA that counts as a 3rd level arcane spell. The wording of Arcane Trickster is: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher. So while it wouldn't qualify you for Mystic Theurge it does qualify you for Arcane Trickster if you can cast Mage Hand, which you can as a level 1 Wizard.
Thanks! I didn't realize that about the SLA. Too late for me as this character, but a good point nonetheless. I don't think my DM would be cool with early entry, I didn't know that anyone allowed that really. Seems like there's an entry barrier for a reason perhaps? Or that's what he'd say anyway. :) I'm fine waiting anyway, almost there! Thank you for all the advice on tweaking this character so she can be all she can be. I'm sort of flip-flopping on taking the Arcane Armor training, seems my AC is going to be low anyway, might be worth it just to skip it and try not to get hit using tactics. :)
Thanks! I didn't realize that about the SLA. Too late for me as this character, but a good point nonetheless. I don't think my DM would be cool with early entry, I didn't know that anyone allowed that really. Seems like there's an entry barrier for a reason perhaps? Or that's what he'd say anyway. :) I'm fine waiting anyway, almost there! Thank you for all the advice on tweaking this character so she can be all she can be. I'm sort of flip-flopping on taking the Arcane Armor training, seems my AC is going to be low anyway, might be worth it just to skip it and try not to get hit using tactics. :)
These are the kind of decisions you must make for your particular game.
There's no one right answer, and you're in the suck levels. You have the skills of a low-level rogue, and the spells of a low-level wizard. You get very few feats. Great Fortitude will always be good.
Skills first. Spells next.