So just something I noticed while statting a character for Beastmass 3, the rules for Polymorph effects are as follows:
...You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell...
and the Power of Giants ability from the Orc Bloodline is as follows:
Power of Giants (Sp): At 15th level, you may grow to Large size as a standard action. At this size you gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You may return to your normal size as a standard action. You may remain in this size for up to 1 minute per character level per day; this duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.
Now the interesting thing here is that it doesn't say that Power of Giants is a polymorph spell or effect (it is just a supernatural ability). So would it stack with existing polymorph effects (like say, wild shape)?
No big impact for regular druids, who get to huge size already, but for cave druids, with a carnivorous crystal doing 7d8 damage as a medium creature, upgrading to large can really boost that damage (up to 21d8 with Strong Jaw Cast, methinks).
prototype00
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It is a Spell-like ability that does not mimic an actual spell, and does not specify the school, so I would have to assume it was a Universal school SLA, so would have to allow it. However, keep in mind that RAW this doesn't increase your size, it makes you large, so it would overlap with most of the increased size effects. If the Carnivorous Crystal Ooze that your Conqueror Ooze build shapeshifts into is medium, I'd have to say RAW it makes you large.
Sure, not a problem (the size bonuses to damage don't stack, they overlap and I take the +6 from power of giants not the +2 from Ooze wildshape.)
It is just nice to be large for the boost to 21d8 damage on a slam, which translates to 672 damage from greater vital strike and furious finish.
prototype00
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We'll worry about RAI once I've thumped your dragon. :)
prototype00
You cannot combine size changing effects with Polymorph so no, Power of Giants cannot be combined with Polymorph. (You even quoted the relevant passage.)
Does Power of Giants Count as a spell here? I had mistakenly pegged it as Supernatural, but a spell like ability that doesn't map to any other spell?
prototype00
Jeff Morse, it is more specific than that. If you use Alter Self (a polymorph effect) and do not alter your size you still cannot be the subject of an size changing effect such as Enlarge Person.
In short, if you have any polymorph effect upon you you cannot be the subject of a size changing effect.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
While it does state "spell" it is the generally accepted wisdom that this applies to any effect.
LazarX, the problem with your statement is that people may agree that the "bonus" does not stack and then effectively double up on size.
Example: a medium creature using Wild Shape to become Large and then using an effect to become Huge.
They then claim that only the "bonuses" (such as the size bonus to Strength) do not stack but that is ok because they are now Huge.
It is a simpler statement that if you are Polymorphed you cannot be the recipient of size altering effects.
There are a number of rules in the Magic section that are written as applying to "spells" but are really applying to any number of effects. For example, to find the stacking rules you have to look at the Magic section and it only references spells. The list continues.
The point is to look beyond the simple statement that it is "spells".
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You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.While it does state "spell" it is the generally accepted wisdom that this applies to any effect.
Thanks, sometimes I think I'm a bit blind.
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Fun part? If you are already under a polymorph effect you are immune to Reduce Person and Baleful Polymorph. :)
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Fun part? If you are already under a polymorph effect you are immune to Reduce Person and Baleful Polymorph. :)
Not true, for Baleful Polymorph at least.
Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form.
Doh, that is what I get for going off of memory, thank you for the correction Fomsie. :)
Ok, one more time. No you cannot do that Rikkan. Wild Shape functions as the various polymorph spells (below is an example of the wording).
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
Even if it was an SU ability it is still a stated polymorph effect and thus follows the polymorph rules. Those rules state that you cannot combine polymorph with polymorph or with size changing.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Wild Shape does not work with Power of Giants.
Edit:
Let me put it another way, if you choose to continue saying "it isn't a spell and therefore that rule does not apply" then you also have to ignore almost all of the Polymorph rules section because it constantly references "spell".
What guidelines will you use at that point for your non-spell polymorph effects? How will you run it?
Answer: you will be firmly in house rule territory and that is not part of this forum.
Did you read the part where it states it functions as the <insert polymorph spell name here> spell (such as Beast Shape I)?
So, in your interpretation does your armor merge with your form when you wild shape? If so, why? If not, why?
So, following your logic you lose your armor/shield bonus whenever you Wild Shape in ANY form? Even Giant Form? (Mountain Druids have access to Giant Form Wild Shape.)
Does all of your gear merge with your form when you Wild Shape?
Does that gear still function when you Wild Shape? For example: does a Cloak of Resistance still function?
If you are a Half-Orc do you lose your darkvision?
If you are an Elf do you lose your Low-Light vision?
What happens when a Giant (Large or Huge) Druid uses Wild Shape?
The point is that every one of these questions reference the Polymorph spell rules.
If you want to stick to the concept that the Polymorph spell rules do not cover Wild Shape then you are going to have to make houserules to cover each of those questions.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Wild Shape is a SU not a spell though, so it will still work with Power of Giants.
As has been said in this thread previously. The magical effects stacking rules also use "spell" when referring to all magical effects.
So Wild Shape being an Su and Power of the Giants being a Sp doesn't make them immune from that language in the polymorph school.