So there's an upcoming game I've been invited to. The premise is a shadow war between nobles, with campaigns of sabotage. Leaving a trail of bodies is highly discouraged.
The game will be essentially E6.
The other players are tossing around the same ideas you might expect, rogue/ninja/bard/witch/wiz/sorc, with some smatterings like Urban Ranger and Urban Druid.
I'm wondering what gaps I can fill, assuming social skills will be well covered.
My current idea is a maneuver master monk. I expect good opportunities for grapple->binding, disarm and steal to take objects of importance. Plus with Qinggong I could pick up Gaseous Form or Augury. I could sneak as well as the rest of the party, plus function as a lie detector with a strong Sense Motive.
Any tips for this build? Or any other class you'd suggest for such a campaign? I'm not doing a Heresy Inquisitor since I'm already running one in another game.
Deciding race is also tough. Human is a good choice to not stick out and for the bonus feat, but it's also kind of boring, and lack of darkvision might make any night jobs near impossible.
Oracles, Bards, and Sorcerers are all great choices as they're all CHA casters. Since Bluff/Diplomacy are probably going to be important skills, having a nice battery of spells to go off the same stat is a good choice.
Also, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, and Arcane Mark will be your friends. Detect Poison is obvious, Detect Magic is obvious, Arcane Mark is less obvious. Use Arcane Mark on all your stuff. And I mean ALL your stuff. This way if you ever suspect someone's been tampering with your things, either stealing them, replacing them with fakes, etc. You've got a fool-proof method of knowing if that took place.
Vivisectionist alchemist with a sap. Elixir of vanish, tap on the noggin, guard is down.
The maneuver monk idea is perfectly valid too. Disarming, tripping, knocking back, temporarily disabling via Dirty Trick... these are all useful techniques in an intrigue-heavy and murder-light game.
Particularly since it sounds like most of your opponents are going to be humanoids. That makes such maneuvers much more useful when the standard enemies are not gargantuan, dozen-legged, flying, natural attacking demons with a CMD of "lol no".
. . . Deciding race is also tough. Human is a good choice to not stick out and for the bonus feat, but it's also kind of boring, and lack of darkvision might make any night jobs near impossible.
You may have already considered this, but an Aasimar gets darkvision and immunity to a lot of low level mental manipulation spells, but also are immune to enlarge person, which is pretty important in some cases. Trade a language for Scion of Humanity and you are no longer immune to the manipulation spells, but you pass for human and can now be enlarged again, so six in one hand...
I'd almost ask if, since it's E6, can you combine drunken master and qinggong monk? At those levels, nothing swaps out a similar feature and as you continue to go, just pick up the feats that get as close to the archetypes that you wanted, but missed.
If he allows third party, I'd suggest elans for the ascetic monk that doesn't eat and meditates a lot or half giants for a more combat focused 'gentle giant' type... or maybe even not so gentle. That would also give you relatively free access to fun psionic feats, like up the walls and psionic fist, though you can't qualify for deep impact or greater psionic fist if you cap at sixth.
All that is contingent upon you being set on monk... In an E6 environment, I like the idea of ninja, because taking the 'rogue talent' talent opens up the ability to cherry pick the few useful rogue talents with the feat extra rogue talent and still get all the ninja talents you want. You could still get pretty good at the unarmed with a few tricks and feats... and all you get is feats. :)
Books: SRD, no 3rd party.
Races: All SRD with RP equal or less than 15
PB: 25
I expect pretty much everyone will buy a hat of disguise.
Homebrew, the DM is a longtime 3.x player but new to PF. For that reason I might expect ACG playtests not allowed, but it's worth considering.
What role does a cavalier/samurai fill in such a campaign?
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You are a face, even when Diplomacy is not possible.
You make a good frontliner, when needed.
Being a cavalier/samurai, gives you the flavor of a respected military official/hero if desired.
The time will come when you will need someone who can handle a fast horse.
You have ways of being a decent debuffer/buffer as well.
Something you might look at: In the APG, there are a set of rules for Performance Combat. With a little bit of tweaking, you could turn these into rules for Diplomatic Combat.
This would turn attempts of PCs to sway crowds and so on into an ongoing contest, with opponents able to counter-diplomance, as it were.
I would also consider letting craft and profession work in place of diplomacy with specified groups. For example, someone proficient as a swordsmith might use their known skill in this area to influence other weaponsmiths or a culture which honors them, such as dwarven ones.
Cleric 2/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 3 would fill the job nicely. This takes some doing but it is very strong in E6. Half-Elf is probably the best for this, the Half-Drow variant has darkvision and a 2nd level arcane SLA. You also need a deity that grants the Trickery domain to get a 2nd level divine SLA and to make bluff, disguise and stealth class skills. Alternately Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 2 is about as good getting more channel but not getting combined spells 2nd level or quite as many spells per day. Substituting Sorcerer or Witch for the Wizard level is a good idea if you want to make a charisma/wisdom rather than wisdom/intelligence character or if there is another Witch around to teach you spells.
Homebrew, the DM is a longtime 3.x player but new to PF. For that reason I might expect ACG playtests not allowed, but it's worth considering. . . .
In that case, he may allow the Dreamscarred Press Port of Psionics if he liked psionics in 3.5.
Both could really benefit from psionic body + psionic talent. In an E6 environment, you'd eventually have more stamina than anyone with enough 'epic' feats. For me, I'd suggest psion 6. Expanded knowledge enough times will give you a fair amount of extra powers known, similar to spontaneous casters and expanded arcana.
I'm not 100% on Monk, but I think it might differentiate me from the spindly nerds/con artists I expect the party to mostly be composed of.
I wouldn't plan on 3rd party, though wall running sounds cool.
Mystic Theurge is an excellent suggestion, though I personally find Paizo's ruling of qualifying with spell-likes somewhat cheesy.
Another idea I have is making a werebat-kin with Bat Shape, which would allow some freedom in infiltration. Doesn't mix particularly well with Monk, however.
Another option on the table given BlackBloodTroll's suggestion, and inspired by Ruggs comment is to actually make a Cavalier who's a duelist as well as a intrigue specialist, Cavaliers are good in that they can do both fairly well. The party may need someone to be challenged to a duel and disgraced at some point, brutish, but effective, and non-lethal in the right circumstances. You could go with the performance combat, or duel combat. Sometimes a game of intrigue needs a guy to bludgeon it in the face, despite not being subtle, it does have the effect of being the thing no one saw coming, which may make it the sneakiest thing available.
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Yeah, I'd probably go Cavalier. Good social skills, excellent flavor for an intrigue game, and can make excellent use of their limited number of Challenges in a dueling or jousting setting. Many Orders are exceedingly appropriate as well.
Get some way of dealing nonlethal damage (there are several, from the Order of the Blue Rose, to the Blade of Mercy trait, to the Bludgeoner Feat), and you're good to go.
I mean, look at Game of Thrones (an excellent example of intrigue) and look at how many knights in ability as well as name there are.
For Race, I'd be inclined to go Human, and leave the night jobs to other people, handling your intrigue by proxy as opposed to sneaking around personally.
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Well, I like the Hobgoblin for the Cavalier, for both the Fearsome alternate racial trait(+4 Intimidate), and the racial favored class bonus for Cavalier(+1/2 bonus on Intimidate checks and Ride checks).
In Golarion, they have their own nation, the Kaoling Empire, and are noted as a very militaristic race, but still able to handle diplomatic relations.
I don't know how they are handled in your DM's world though.
It is interesting that you bring up GoT. I actually can't think of any knights that are good at intrigue in GoT. The movers and shakers are people like Varys and Baelish. Who did you have in mind?
Quite a few orders have edicts that might be fairly stick in the mud for this campaign. And I'll be honest, I don't like horses at all.
But I do like the idea of a duelist, I think there's potential in that (so long as it doesn't hog too much spotlight from the party while I have a 1v1 with someone).
Perhaps a Ranger or an ACG Swashbuckler could do well in that role.
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It is interesting that you bring up GoT. I actually can't think of any knights that are good at intrigue in GoT. The movers and shakers are people like Varys and Baelish. Who did you have in mind?
Jaime Lannister's not too bad, actually. He doesn't like the game, but he can play it to some degree. Loras Tyrell tends to rely on his sister for that sort of thing, but his skills are useful and they make a damn good team. Oberyn Martell is actually an excellent intriguer as wll as a deadly warrior. Robb Stark wasn't half-bad either (though he was young and made mistakes), though he wasn't a Knight per se. Bronn's also decent, in a self-centered sort of way.
Quite a few orders have edicts that might be fairly stick in the mud for this campaign.
Eh, depending on motives, Cockatrice, Dragon, Lion, or Star should be easy. Besides, violating a Code of Conduct only loses his Challenge for a day. That's not the end of the world.
And I'll be honest, I don't like horses at all.
Go Beast Master and have a different species of pet, then. Easy as pie.
But I do like the idea of a duelist, I think there's potential in that (so long as it doesn't hog too much spotlight from the party while I have a 1v1 with someone).
I'd imagine an intrigue based game will have a fair amount of one-on-one time with various people.
Perhaps a Ranger or an ACG Swashbuckler could do well in that role.
Either could do well, though a Ranger will lack some social skills that might be essential in this sort of game, IMO.
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Can't beat a wizard. If your enemies are political rivals they are known quantities you have time to prepare for. The range of things a prepared wizard can do is endless.
Think what Littlefinger could do with illusion magic. What Varys could do with Scry, what anyone could do with Dominate Person. Magic radically alters the political landscape. Divination, Enchantment, & Illusion become game breaking.
Simplest example if you're familiar with AGoT. Consider a ninth level wizard casts Contact Other Plane. Less than a minute later a potential plotter knows (and can prove to similar level or higher people) the following:
** spoiler omitted **
Bang, 54 seconds later the world is dramatically changed. That's one spell and it would turn the AGoT world on its head.
Uh...which is why AGoT is low magic. Also, he mentioned E6...which sorta means this idea as such isn't gonna work.
Wizard's still a good idea...but one he mentioned as one of the typical one while he wanted something else.
Oberyn does not live long enough to really tell how good he is at intrigue, the man is not subtle. Always asking about when the vengeance will be served.
Easier to make skills class via traits than to eke out additional skill points.
Of course, magic is a powerful tool. It's also relatively easy to detect (and mind that we're capping at lvl3 spells, which keeps most earth-shattering magic out of reach). I am considering wizard however, as a good class for a werebatkin.
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** spoiler omitted **
And Oberyn is clever, he's just also very focused indeed.
Easier to make skills class via traits than to eke out additional skill points.
True enough, I suppose, though getting three skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive) is a bit tricky without spending a Feat on it, which costs. If going ACG classes, Slayer is worth noting for doing what Ranger does for this game, only likely better.
Of course, magic is a powerful tool. It's also relatively easy to detect (and mind that we're capping at lvl3 spells, which keeps most earth-shattering magic out of reach). I am considering wizard however, as a good class for a werebatkin.
Wizard's solid.
Might discuss some ideas with the rest of the party. One time in an intrigue heavy game it was decided we need a 'distraction' character. Everyone else was sneak/intrigue/subtle/social characters.
I was a brute barbarian stomping almost uncontrollably though social settings. "Why Gorthun drink out bitty thimble? Fill up mug." I wore tribal leathers, carried a club and flint spear, didn't wear shoes, etc...
Though I did max'd sense motive (even with a skill focus and trait). "Gorthun smell lies on you. Gorthun no like lie smells!"
However, I was playing much more stupid/niave than he really was. I also maxed bluff and my stealth was also pretty high. So if they needed some muscle on a sneaky raid I was available.
But usually I was the very visible distraction to pull the guards and nobles off balance.
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I am surprised no one has mentioned Inquisitor. One of my players is running a ranged Inquisitor of Erastil in my game. His abilities make him a better interrogator/lie detector than the party Paladin of Iomedae. He also gets divine spells, domain abilities, and a wide assortment of skills (including stealth). Personally, if I was to play an urban political campaign, I would play an Inquisitor or Bard over a Ranger or Rogue.
That's actually an excellent point. If the Cavalier's mountedness doesn't really meet your approval Petty Alchemy, Inquisitor is a good choice. It's got pretty much all your main class skills, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Stealth, and a bucket of Knowledge skills, it's good in a fight, and generally on foot since that seems to tickle your fancy. And, if all that's not enough, you get a battery of divine magic and a lot of it investigative stuff, plus your good saves, Will and Fortitude are the ones likely to come up, either in the way of Fortitude against poisons or the near endless number of ways that magic can be used to trick, persuade, or otherwise foil you covertly. Top all this off with proficiency/weapons for performance or duel combat, and you've got the Cavalier idea, but without the mount and with a lot more other things.
I'd probably use your traits to fill in the skill gaps, mainly Disable Device and Knowledge Nobility, and with that, you're one scary build for intrigue my friend.
Definitely respect Inquisitor as a powerful pick, but as I mentioned earlier, I'm already running one.
I'm leaning towards a sap master ninja right now.
Was it ever confirmed/denied if Ninjas can take Rogue archetypes if they have all the abilities to be replaced? I searched and found some FAQ'd posts, but didn't see any concrete ruling from Paizo.
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Definitely respect Inquisitor as a powerful pick, but as I mentioned earlier, I'm already running one.
I'm leaning towards a sap master ninja right now.
Was it ever confirmed/denied if Ninjas can take Rogue archetypes if they have all the abilities to be replaced? I searched and found some FAQ'd posts, but didn't see any concrete ruling from Paizo.
I think this thread makes it pretty clear that that works since they're explicitly just really big archetypes.
That's great, thanks Dead.
Here's my Ninja, mostly finished. Any good gear besides the Hat of Disguise I should keep in mind?
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Quick Runner's Shirt is always great for melee characters who want to full Attack. Not relevant yet, but maybe some time. Synchronizes well with Scout, too.
I highly recommend Forgotten Trick for your non-picked Ninja Trick. It's just great for utility, which should be awesome for this game. I'd also highly recommend Iron Will as a potential Feat. Your will Save is likely to matter at least as much in this sort of game as a more typical one.
Yeah, I found myself pretty short on feats, Sap Master and Bat Shape has me spent.
I'm definitely considering Forgotten Trick, I think it's either that, or Darkvision, since darkness would otherwise ruin my ability to SA.
I've taken a look at items, and am compiling them here for reference:
Gloves of Recon: Fantastic, scope out a room before deciding on an entrance plan (or find out that you don't need to enter it). Likewise useful for checking out safes/chests. Might need Darkvision to get best mileage.
Gloves of Apprentice Cheating: Access to two very handy cantrips.
Robe of Infinite Twine: I want to like this. As a Ninja, you could Light Step up twine. On the other hand, twine isn't hard to carry. Plus, getting it secured to point B will be a challenge, barring a caster friend with a flying monkey familiar.
Belt of Tumbling: Can skip it, but 800gp is pretty cheap, and this does a fine job of increasing your odds of tumbling past someone blocking the exit.
Boots of the Cat: Need to jump out a window? You'll live. This item basically says "suck it Slow Fall", since you'll only take 5 damage for a 50ft drop.
Shirts: Quick Runner's as recommended. Honorable mention to All Tool's Vest.
Eyes: Eyes of the Eagle for +5 Perception or Goggles of Minute Seeing for +5 Disable Device, both very relevant bonuses at this level. Spectacles of Understanding are 3k, but they give you Comprehend Languages and +5 to Linguistics for forgery detection, both potentially very useful.
Neck: Hand of the Mage gives you Mage Hand if you can't afford/slot the Apprentice Gloves. By default this is literally a mummified elf hand, so kind of creepy. See if you can get it on a normal necklace.
Cloak of the Hedge Wizard: Another way to get some options, at the opportunity cost of the Cloak of Resist. I like the Illusion/Transmutation varieties best.
Reviving this topic for tips on poisons to craft!
I'm avoiding Con damage, but KO and mental stat damage have potential.