So, I just got to thinking about the firearms rules for the first time. Never really cared for gunslingers all that much, but one of our recent topics talking about special materials for guns piqued my interest enough to get me interested, and I came upon an idea, that either won't work at all, or is scary as all get out.
The idea got started with the idea of going pirate-style and carrying braces of pistols in the multiple variety and really treat them like disposable boom-sticks. Fire them, drop them, keep going till out of pistols, and finish of the stragglers with melee weaponry. This ended up stacking mentally with the idea of using Double-Barreled Pistols to boot, since they seemed rather piraty in their design. All of this kind of culminated in what at least to me seems to be a terrifying idea, and I have a few questions to try to figure out where I've hopefully misread something and this is totally not kosher by the rules.
#1: The Double-Barreled Pistol can be fired with both barrels simultaneously at a -4 penalty to each attack roll. These shots are resolved as two separate attacks, therefore meaning two attack rolls and on success, two separate damage rolls with complete Dex Bonuses to damage and such. Just need to make sure that I'm clear on this rule and not misreading it.
#2: As with using Quick Draw with a Full-Attack with thrown weapons, this could be applied to pistols. Further, this application of Quick Draw could also be applied to the TWF feat tree. Also need to make sure this is correct.
#3: Rapid-Shot can be combined with various types of ranged attacks, not necessarily coming from the exact same weapon source. It just requires a full-attack and adds 1 attack to that.
If these two things are things I'm reading correctly, does this mean that someone going off of the whole effectively disposable gun route could use 4 braces of double-barreled pistols, firing both barrels on each gun, a Full +20 BAB, Quick Draw, Rapid-Shot, and Greater TWF to resolve 16 Attacks in a round?
If I got this right, it should be
4 Attacks for BAB
3 Attacks for TWF
1 Attack for Rapid-Shot.
x2 for Double-Barreled Pistols.
Stacking all of that with bonus damage from Dex and such seems like you could end up pouring out an absolutely absurd amount of damage in a single round. Not really going to be able to keep that up over multiple rounds since at the end of the first round you've got a pile of discharged pistols at your feet, but it seems like if built right, this could turn into a "I enter the room and everything dies" kind of build.
And once you fire all those guns, you've got melee weaponry.
Also, you have to track ammo, track weight (oh god the weight) and you don't get enhancement bonuses (unless you're going to enchant all eight pistols... a round...)
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Also, weapon cords wouldn't really work with his idea, since you can't use another weapon with that hand while the cord is attached.
I do get the interesting image of a pirate walking out from below decks with eighteen cords attached to each wrist, each attached to a double-barreled pistol in a bandolier. As he fires each one, he drops it and lets it dangle, then uses them as a cat-o-nine-pistols whenever he's out of ammo or someone closes to melee.
Yeah, to be able to pull this off, you'd have to be carrying 45lbs worth of pistols (if you carry 9 so that if Haste is around you can toss in 1 more), so you'd either have to just trust that since you'll drop 45lbs worth of weight in the first round that it won't matter too much, or have a pretty good strength to handle all that weight. Or invest in Mithral pistols which would get kind of pricy.
But honestly if the rules are good I think it might be worth it, I was considering it for mixing it with the Trench Fighter Archetype (never seen this one mentioned despite being Paizo material as far as I can tell, seems like a wasted opportunity).
Dex Bonus+4 Weapon Training+4 Weapon Specialization+12 Deadly Aim+1 Point-Blank Shot+Some other option I'm probably forgetting=+21 Damage+Dex Mod to each pistol shot without any enchantment mods, if you somehow managed to enchant all of them to +5 and had a +7 or so Dex mod?
That's 16d8+528 damage if all your attacks hit (which when you're throwing against Touch AC isn't that hard to believe), not including the chance for critical hits. You're probably never going to be able to get such nice enchantments on 8 pistols, but even without, that's still a 16d8+448 potential damage output from plain ol' MW pistols for an average output of 520 Damage in a single round if my math's right. Mix all that with Cluster of Shots to get pass some of the DR and you're looking at one hell of a damage output if you ask me.
And since I'm playing with a level 20 theory-craft here, you've probably got a fair bit of money to kick around. So even if you can't get +5 enchantments on all of them, let's say a +1 Reliable Double-Barreled Pistol. And for the argument of weight, we'll make 'em all Mithral too. Each pistol carries a market price of 12,250. Not cheap, especially at 9 of them coming up to a total of 110,250. But at level 20 when everyone else is going to be trying to have at least a +5 Weapon with some other enchantments on them to boot? Within the realm of reason to have this, especially if you cut costs by crafting your new pistols as often as possible, then get the enchants later/have the party mage add them at a discount.
Now, if with the above ideas mentioned, and you're going against a big ol' nasty like the Advanced Great Wyrm Red Dragon or something. Your party's cast haste on you, and you've got assistance of the Fortune Hex. You throw in 18 Attacks (and roll 36 d20s due to Fortune *shudder*), and given touch AC attacks, your basically guaranteed 18 hits. So with your +1 Guns, and with your large stockpile of fighter feats you got Cluster of Shots and basically everything possible to boost damage, you should have an average damage output of 603-20 for DR=A total of 583, killing the Dragon in one round of combat with minimal assistance from a maximum of two party members, possibly just one who spent one round's worth of actions if they're built for this kind of tactic. Hell, maybe be a good idea for a Cohort if you could get the Leadership feat added in.
It's slightly easier than you're thinking.
1. At high level you can afford to get 2 Pistols of the Infinite Sky, see if your GM allows you to have double barrelled versions.
2. The weight is less of an issue since the endless Bandolier can hold most of the guns and ammo.
3. For DR and incorporeal targets, weapon blanches are excellent.
However, no sane GM would allow a player to use trench fighter's Dex bonus to damage to stack with the gunslinger's Dex bonus to damage.
Nor should anyone be allowed to try the 'hundreds of free actions reloading method' but quickdrawing 6 guns with another 2 in hand at the start should be fine.
Didn't know about those Infinite Sky pistols, very cool, a double barreled version is basically exactly what I was trying to accomplish, though for flavor, if I made this I'd probably stick with the absurd amount of pistols. Crazy thing is, the above damage calculations is using only the Trench Fighter's Dex bonus, no dips into Gunslinger whatsoever. For a little bit of the breakdown if you're interested, I was operating with a level 20 Trench Fighter in mind with 24 Dex (17+2 Racial+5 for level adjustments) and the following smattering of feats:
Weapon Finesse
Skill Focus (Craft Weapons)
Gunsmithing
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms)
Weapon Focus (Double-Barreled Pistol)
Weapon Specialization (Double-Barreled Pistol)
Quick Draw
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Weapon Focus (Double-Barreled Pistol)
Point-Blank Shot
Deadly Aim
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Weapon Specialization (Double-Barreled Pistol)
Precise Shots
Improved Critical
Rapid Shot
Clustered Shots
Snapshot
Sword and Pistol
Improved Initiative
Hammer the Gap
Ends up being a bit of a one trick pony, and a pony who's trick last for one round, but I'm guessing everyone can get the idea, those feats + Weapon Training + Trench Warfare can get the damage output above if my math's right (Double checking myself, I actually just got 701, know I forgot Hammer the Gap initially, but I think it's too late to math right). And with 18 attacks with a 19-20 crit range from Improved Critical with an auto-confirming x5 critical that a level 20 fighter can get with a pistol? That just seems to enter into the world of freaky to me.
But regardless, much thanks to everyone for replying, especially Cnetarian, you really helped clarify that first question quite well. Any further discussion is beginning to delve more into the Advice section and character building discussions than Rules Questions, so I think I'll leave this here for now, maybe kick this off again in Advice tomorrow. Thanks again for the clarification everyone!
Well, this is probably the one exception to that rule, from the PRD's section on Firearms in Ultimate Equipment:
Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.
#1 sorta right, the two shots from a double barreled pistol are one attack with two rolls to hit so some bonuses (like sneak attack) don't apply to each shot. Gun training applies per damage roll not per attack so the bonus can be applied to both attacks, although your DM may decide to change the rules on that.
#2 yes this is correct, provided you have enough pistols where you can draw them then you can use quick-draw to draw with TWF and make 9 (don't overlook haste) attacks with two rolls each round. Note that drawing a weapon is not the same as retrieving a stored item (manipulating an item). Even though the retrieving an item from something like a handy haversack is easier than from a non-magic container, you will need a DM ruling that quick draw can be applied if try that route.
#3 correct
Note that at 1,750 GP for a double pistol if you try this you will be spending massive amounts of money on mundane pistols, and will need to use magic ammo on those occasions when you need magic weaponry.
For more power combine with the pistolero archetype and signature deed: up close and deadly.
Sneak attack would apply to both they are seperate attack rolls.
Cool stuff, at the least that keeps me from having to spend precious time picking up all my valuable guns if the party needs to run. And it's cool to boot! Mainly staying on Trench Fighter to keep the high BAB, need to shoot as often as possible and attack as accurately as possible to pull off the 18 attacks and not just be wasting bullets. If I was building for Gestalt? Oh dear, Trench Fighter/Pirate would be the perfect combo. And I hear you on the whole never getting a game past level 8 thing, this is pure speculation on my part, hence why I decided to ask if this worked or not because I've really only made characters this high level as pure speculation. Seemed like getting 16 attacks out without any help from other party members was some kind of black magic that couldn't possibly be right.
But anyway, since this conversation is moving away from a Rules Question, went ahead and made a thread in advice to more discuss builds and such if anyone wants to keep up the discussion.
