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I've been playing in a game ran by a friend of a friend. He's an easy going guy, laughs a lot. Loves lots of stuff that I love (Finally someone I can talk about Mass Effect)
Three sessions in, and a sudden realization strikes me. This guy SUCKS as a GM. Really sucks.
He cannot stay serious even for a second. I mean a guy is panicking because the city is on fire and he giggles every other sentence.
His NPCs are bland and one-dimensional.
He loves to take player agency away from the players. Sometimes he actually narrates what we do without our input. (A huge no-no in my books)
His story is so-so but that can be forgiven, half of my stories were horrible too, only made better by the players.
He does not how to distribute the spotlight properly, last session a guy and I who had an illustrious task of infiltrating the castle through the sewers waited for 3 hours before we were allowed to play. Because the other group was busy discussing stuf with the castle guards.
So, after the session, I take the guy aside, and in the friendliest manner possible tell him that I think his game could use some improvements, and that he can rely on me to provide advice (I've been GM-ing almost exclusively for 14+ years, and everyone tells me I am a good GM)
He immediately grows cold and tells me that he doesn't need advice and that there is nothing that I can tell him that can improve his game.
So i say sure, have it your way.
As it is late, he packs up and leaves, and we remain for a nightcap. And everyone says what's on my mind. That he sucks.
So, everyone asks me to run that Vampire game I was talking about, but I feel bad. I mean, he is horrible, true, but I was pretty bad when I started too.
Should I insist on giving him another chance? Or should the other players decide?
I've convinced them to sit in another session before deciding.
How can I advise him without it sounding pretentious?
Just leave. Or take-over the chair. Not much to be done here.
It seems to me that there are other players involved here who need to step up.
If you want to make sure he has a chance to grow as a DM, and you want to avoid too much in the way of hard feelings, I would suggest to the group that *everyone* take some time in the big chair. Each person would be DM for one 'adventure' (which may be more than one session), and then the responsibility would shift.
The adventures need not (and I suggest should not) occur in the same game world, or even in the same game system. It exposes everyone to some different play styles and genres, gives each GM plenty of prep time, and gives some breathing room if someone isn't very good at it.
Eventually, people will likely develop favorite games, and some people will want to drop out of the DM rotation, so you'll likely eventually end up with 1 or 2 games, but in the meantime you've had a change of pace, and the less experienced DM has had time to season.
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WARNING! THREAD JACK A HEAD!
I didn't start as a good GM either. One of my concerns is that I exhibit some of the deficiencies I see posted in these threads. I take the time at the end of each session to ask for feedback and to ask if we had fun. It takes a while to develop a style that can function in gaming groups.
I would agree to let him run one more session. If he continues as previously then ask the group to say something to him. The idea of rotating GM duties sounds pretty good. But what would you do if he doesn't agree to give up the chair? See what happens if others tell him he needs improvement. If he doesn't listen then start another game.
GMing takes practice, most people suck at it when they start out. It's hard when people are hard-headed and won't take good advice; but stick with it if you can, try to help him if allowed to. Invite him to play in your game so he can see your playstyle; it's better to show rather than tell. After he sees your game, tell him what he can do to improve his. Maybe he needs evidence of your social proof to show him you are as good as you say you are. IF he still won't take advice then you tried.
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I was in a similar situation. Except this GM asked for feedback and when I gave it to him (with examples) he denied everything and took offense. Shortly after a player rage quit, and I followed suit after having none of my class abilities work multiple times in a game session and being told that I could not attack with a spell while being compulsed to attack an empty sarcophagus.
All of the RP was handled off camera with one other guy, and we were seriously railroaded to the point we had nno control over anything. Do yourself a favor and quit now before he really makes you mad. Sometimes pride gets in the way of what could be a good learning experience. Find an online gaming group if there isn't a local game you can join. Best of luck.
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But what would you do if he doesn't agree to give up the chair?
Simply start a new game and not invite him to play. Not too difficult.
Find an online gaming group if there isn't a local game you can join.
Tried online gaming once or twice. Sucked both times. I'm kinda leery towards the concept of it. Plus I don't have a problem finding other games.
As for quitting, I will endure a single session more. Than, it's either "Good, you've taken advice" or "sorry, we won't play with you any more".| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
has anyone else in the player group talked with the GM?
have you tried, as a group, before a session starts, (tactfully) asking as a group to provide some input on what you all would like to see improved/changed from the game and from the GM, as well as to ask how you as players can assist him with the flow/functionality of the game the GM is running?
A united front may help get results that one person could not get on their own
if this is met with cold negativity or a flat-out refusal, you're probably not going to get anywhere with this
Hama I can relate.
If he is not willing to listen and improve you are sadly going to be stuck with the same s&*ty game.
I gotta say that was pretty cool of you to offer. I had a mentor who was very patient, but unlike your friend I was a sponge who took any advice I could.
-MD
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The point is that he knows me, also knows my reputation as a good GM, mostly because I've GM-ed for roughly a half of available players in Belgrade. And he knows I am an honest person. When I offer advice, I do it in the most sincere and positive way possible.
If he is to proud to get that, I have no problems in completely dismantling his game and taking all his players. He's doing it for me anyway.
Yes, I've talked to the other players. I've asked them to be honest with him, because there are too many crappy GMs with delusions of quality in the world already.
If he is not willing to listen and improve you are sadly going to be stuck with the same s&*ty game.
Nope. I'm gonna start a game of my own if I get bored of his. Or I'll just go into another game. I have been asked by several people to join.
The point is that he knows me, also knows my reputation as a good GM, mostly because I've GM-ed for roughly a half of available players in Belgrade. And he knows I am an honest person. When I offer advice, I do it in the most sincere and positive way possible.
If he is to proud to get that, I have no problems in completely dismantling his game and taking all his players. He's doing it for me anyway.
Yes, I've talked to the other players. I've asked them to be honest with him, because there are too many crappy GMs with delusions of quality in the world already.
If he is not willing to listen and improve you are sadly going to be stuck with the same s&*ty game.Nope. I'm gonna start a game of my own if I get bored of his. Or I'll just go into another game. I have been asked by several people to join.
Yeah this is a wrong-headed approach and very arrogant, I can understand dropping and leaving, maybe talking people into coming with you; but to "dismantle his game and take all of his players"? Wtf?
If he won't listen then he won't listen... but that doesn't mean you have to stop talking. Keep giving him advice outside the game and see if he doesn't eventually start taking it.
Now if you don't have that kind of patience then it's best to just find a new GM and hopefully the slap in the face that he wasn't good enough will motivate him to learn more before trying again.
Leave. Or don't post something that sounds so arrogant and maybe help him improve? Not sure...sounds like you might just be venting though.
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I am venting because he won't take my advice, which is offered in best of intentions.
Much of a people person? I am, however i have absolutely zero patience for stupidity, hardheadedness and people who can't take advice or honest well meaning criticism.
When I say dismantling his game I mean that all of his players will leave him and ask me to run a game (which I would prefer not to do, because I feel like playing), and that I really don't need to do anything. He will do it himself. They already asked me to run a game instead of him.
Maybe he's intentionally inferior and is just sucking really SUCKING! so he can go back to playing in your awesome game?
Then why would he insist to run a game? Insist that when I finish my game, we have to play his?
As far as arrogance goes, i can be arrogant. Often.
I want to help him improve, he doesn't.
If he won't listen then he won't listen... but that doesn't mean you have to stop talking. Keep giving him advice outside the game and see if he doesn't eventually start taking it.
I actually wouldn't recommend this, when dealing with anyone stubborn. Or anyone simply peeved by potentially tactless unsolicited advice. Continuing to give advice will be seen as nagging at best, and will probably result in said individual digging their heels in even further.
Truth is he is not going to get better overnight and even if he took all your advice he might not ever be the GM you want him to be.
I can only speak for myself but if someone usurped my chair I would be very hurt. The kind of hurt that can make a person walk away from gaming forever. So please tread carefully Hama. We need more gamers.
I would leave the group, take a few months off then reform it and invite him to be a player first and foremost.
It's a tricky spot you got yourself in.
-MD
If you really want to give him a chance to get better and are not in any hurry to start GMing again, I would let the other players know that if they don't want to play with him as the GM, then one of them should step up. That usually quells a bunch of complaining pretty quick.
Now understand you are frustrated yourself, but as the more experienced GM, you need to be a bit more above it all. Instead of telling him what you dislike, try to find things you like and let him know it. Yes it might be something pretty trivial, but work on it. I've gamed with GMs that made me grind my teeth, but I bit my tongue and only offered advice when asked. If asked about a rule being done wrong I'd usually say something like, "Well I tend to do X, but if the GM wants to Y, that's cool."
I'd even suggest to him to come to boards like this and get some cool ideas (I wouldn't say advice or help since again that seems like criticizing). Maybe even say something like, "Yeah, I kept getting a few rules messed up until I got a chance to read some threads on the stuff." Even if that isn't 100%, probably everyone has seen something that has helped them improve at some point.
Just bite the bullet and let him run his game. When it runs its course let the next person step up. It won't last forever.
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A bad GM who won't take advice isn't going to get better. If the other players want you to take over, I'd go with that. Maybe one of them can GM later, and not suck.
If it was just about you and him my advice might be different, but you have to consider the rest of the group. If they're not enjoying the game either, you actually have a moral duty to resume GMing rather than let them suffer.
BTW my impression is that maybe Serbs are a bit stubborn in general? :) I'm from Northern Ireland, we have a similar reputation. Sometimes stubborness is bad, as in refusing to take good advice. But sometimes a willingness to offend if necessary can be a good thing, and IMO booting a sucky GM who refuses to try to improve is one of those times.
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A bad GM who won't take advice isn't going to get better. If the other players want you to take over, I'd go with that. Maybe one of them can GM later, and not suck.
If it was just about you and him my advice might be different, but you have to consider the rest of the group. If they're not enjoying the game either, you actually have a moral duty to resume GMing rather than let them suffer.
BTW my impression is that maybe Serbs are a bit stubborn in general? :) I'm from Northern Ireland, we have a similar reputation. Sometimes stubborness is bad, as in refusing to take good advice. But sometimes a willingness to offend if necessary can be a good thing, and IMO booting a sucky GM who refuses to try to improve is one of those times.
A moral duty? Seriously? Its a bloody game. There's no moral obligation to run a game for anyone... It might be a nice thing to do, but not doing it isn't going to make Hama an amoral person.
Hama, best thing is to try talking to him with the group. Keep it open or things can get nasty, if he feels like he's being stabbed in the back, figuratively speaking of course)
A moral duty? Seriously? Its a bloody game. There's no moral obligation to run a game for anyone... It might be a nice thing to do, but not doing it isn't going to make Hama an amoral person.
Indeed not. There are different levels of moral duty. This is like walking by the canal and seeing an empty plastic bag floating in the water by the shore. You have a moral duty to pick up that bag and put it in the bin. Not doing so does not make you a bad person or amoral.
Edit: Or, I was talking to my son (6 yrs) about dog poo on the pavement/sidewalk. I explained that the really good dog owners scooped up their dog's poo and carried it to a dog poo bin. The morally ok dog owners made their dogs poo in the gutter so that no one stepped on it and the rain would wash it away. The bad dog owners let their dog poo in the middle of the pavement/sidewalk where we then had to dodge it.
But even those bad dog owners might never dream of setting their dogs on a pedestrian who complained, say. There are different levels of moral good and bad. Doing the right thing for your group is morally good. Here, it looks as if returning to GM role would maximise the greatest happiness of the greatest number of people.
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Actually I would have gone with an even more direct approach. Skip the offer to help and just matter of factly say what you didn't like.
"Hey can we maybe split up the spotlight time better, intead of scouting I'm sitting here for 3 hours while they talk to the guards. And what's up with you narrating what my character does, I should get to decide what I want to do."
No one can say you are a douche for saying what you find fun or not.
Moral duty? Please? I owe nothing to no one. If I want to run a game, I will. If not, I don't really care if they want me to. I've had enough of GMing for a while.
Oh, if you don't want to GM, then don't. But if this guy is really bad and won't listen, and the others agree, then if you're ok with GMing for a bit I recommend doing so, and as you do so look to swap out with one of the other players as soon as you can.
You sound like a group leader type (snap). I advise a fair lot of GMs/leaders like you as an Organiser at my D&D Meetup. One thing I always advise is a willingness to step up, get things organised, GM the group until they're running smoothly, and *then* hand over GMing to a suitable prospect. A common source of problems is handing over too early, perhaps organising a group, but letting someone you don't know GM, and trusting it'll work out. That untried person is often a doofus, which sounds like the case here.
If you can take over for say a 4-session mini-campaign while you look at getting someone else to GM, I'd recommend that.
Actually I would have gone with an even more direct approach. Skip the offer to help and just matter of factly say what you didn't like.
"Hey can we maybe split up the spotlight time better, intead of scouting I'm sitting here for 3 hours while they talk to the guards. And what's up with you narrating what my character does, I should get to decide what I want to do."
No one can say you are a douche for saying what you find fun or not.
Yes - if you've not done this already, do it. He needs to be clear what he's doing wrong. He may well not be interested in changing, though, especially if in his own mind he's a good GM.
Seems like everybody's gotten to the meat of the discussion already. I hope this goes a little bit better. If the others players DID raise their concerns like you did, I'm sure he'll start taking it to heart. One person alone might not be able brake his ego armor but if half or all of the groups speaks up, he can't keep believing he's doing a good job.
Yeah this is a wrong-headed approach and very arrogant, I can understand dropping and leaving, maybe talking people into coming with you; but to "dismantle his game and take all of his players"? Wtf?
I don't think you're getting what he's saying, Jack.
The other players want to leave. Like Hama said, the GM is doing the "dismantling" for him. All Hama is doing is providing the players with somewhere to go.
What did a hedgehog ever do to YOU?
It's easy for you to be a hedgehog apologist. You've never tried to copulate with one.
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Well, the session is over.
It went nearly as predicted.
Aside from arriving an hour late, the GM railroaded us something fierce. One of the players actually almost had a hysteric fit, because he screwed up every single one of our attempts to resolve a situation that didn't fit what he wanted us to do.
It was more interesting, however, because we all shared the spotlight, as we were all in the same space at all times.
The setting ended with a cliffhanger, so we agreed to give him another chance, mainly because we're interested with what comes next. However, we are all very frustrated with his skill as a GM. So I believe that the next session is his last session as our GM unless he takes advice I've penned him in an E-mail to heart. I also sent him several links to great GM-ing advice on the internet, mainly Alexandrian and some other good GMs.
If he can get over his ego, he might read some of those. They might help.
I'm not hopeful.
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I'm not sure why I read into this thread that he was new. My mistake. Is he rusty? Has he always been like this?
I would keep pushing his rails next game. If he doesn't. Get better talk to thee players at the end of the game and collectively tell him that his game isn't right for the group. You're going to rotate DMs.
He actually tends to treat tabletop games as single player when he is playing. That should say everything you need to know.