If you're going with an internally consistent world [...]The magic item pricings themselves are wildly inconsistent. There has been no broad core item review since the publication of 3.0 and a number of core pricings are therefore two editions' worth of obsolete (if they were ever perfect in the first place).
Looking to base an internally consistent world on a bunch of giant beasts of burden (or teleporting sorcerers, or whatever) taking advantage of magic item pricing is a fool's errand. You input an inconsistent system, you output the same.
I don't disagree with your gripe about magic item crafting, but this particular issue requires zero magic items to do if you do it properly, with that store-treasure-in-a-piece-of-cloth spell.
Again I say, this isn't actually a huge issue if you're willing to make a couple minor house rules. (we just put a border around all our islands that cuts off teleport and scry) And it may not be a huge issue at all if you're willing to promote teleport trade in your campaign.
Thing is, choosing between teleportation magic and mundane shipping is not the equivalent of choosing between Edison and Tesla. It's choosing between electricity and gas lights.
No way, dude, you're multiple orders of magnitude off. I can personally, in today's world, choose between electricity and gas lights. I can't even choose today to have my goods shipped by teleport. The closest thing is Fed Ex.
The better analogy might be choosing between hunter-gatherer jungle life and Dominos Pizza.
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The cost to set it up is actually not particularly high compared to other kingdom projects - the cost of casting a teleportation circle and making it permanent is less than the cost of building a pier, the cheapest structure able to handle water trade.
The cost to create the actual magical circle isn't much compared to the pier, but that's the equivalent to "having water." Presuming you're going to need resources to load/unload cargo, places to house customs officials, warehouses to store items until they can be expected, guards, and all the other miscellany that comes with a trade node, the actual cost would be at least as much as a pier in kingdom-building terms. Plus the cost of the teleporter.
I mean it doesn't cost 16 BP just to put some planks out in the water.
What does subsidies have to do with this? Christie's move was the act of a politician bought by the major automakers who are trying to prevent innovative competition while they sell us overpriced and under performing hybrids.Which goes back to the problem with electric cars. They need subsidies to exist. Not more profitable, unlike our example of magical transport.On the other hand, Chris Christie of NJ, became the latest of a series of governors to effectively ban the sale of Tesla cars by signing a law heavily pushed by the Big 3 automakers. New Jersey now requires that all cars be sold through a dealership, effectively banning Tesla which uses the direct sales method.You do know we are communicating using Tesla's breakthrough tech. It's called 'AC current'. Shh, keep the secret. Unless of course you have your computer running off of batteries.Right. Science and technology are always embraced and accepted. Tesla called. He wants to know if you'd like to come over to my house and play Dreamcast with him.
We can do it after we get our vaccines, while chatting about the current actions taken to combat global warming and hunger, and maybe look up slides about the end of warfare. You can bring your solar powered car, so that when we're done, we can head out and maybe have some sensibly protected sex with various people or each other, if we're into that.
Because no one is against any of those things, or denies them, or starts huge movements aimed at ruining them.
Human progress, always going for the win-win.
If they were making money they'd probably still accept the subsidies. More importantly they'd have the money to pony up enough to keep Christie from shutting them down. Since they depend on subsidies they can only appeal to the people who offered them subsidies in the first place. And that wasn't Christie.
While the logistical reasons that various transportation methods exist can be a fascinating topic for some, I don't think either of you is going to convince the other if you haven't already.
Given the economically-driven motivations I've noted so far, I'm surprised that one reason I haven't heard yet in the circle-networks-would-not-exist camp is that wizards get to charge for each use of teleport individually, over and over - so only a wizard driven by non-economic reasons would ever set up a permanent, "free" service instead.
Merchant: I'll give you a million gold pieces to set up a permanent gate!
Wizard: And destroy the monopoly that I and my guild-brothers have held over your heads for centuries? I think not.
This exactly. Also it is possible that wizards don't want the common people to have magic they don't control.
If they were making money they'd probably still accept the subsidies. More importantly they'd have the money to pony up enough to keep Christie from shutting them down. Since they depend on subsidies they can only appeal to the people who offered them subsidies in the first place. And that wasn't Christie.What?
They must need subsidies because if they didn't they be able to bribe Christie? What sense does that make?
No let's make this simpler. They don't make money that's why they need subsidies. They don't have money to really make political contributions (bribes). Thus they don't have political clout. Thus Christie listened to those who do have political clout.
On the subject of subsidies, plenty of businesses that do not need subsidies or tax breaks accept them. Tesla would probably still keep accepting the subsidies even if they were profitable. It is human nature.
Does that make sense?
This exactly. Also it is possible that wizards don't want the common people to have magic they don't control.While the logistical reasons that various transportation methods exist can be a fascinating topic for some, I don't think either of you is going to convince the other if you haven't already.
Given the economically-driven motivations I've noted so far, I'm surprised that one reason I haven't heard yet in the circle-networks-would-not-exist camp is that wizards get to charge for each use of teleport individually, over and over - so only a wizard driven by non-economic reasons would ever set up a permanent, "free" service instead.
Merchant: I'll give you a million gold pieces to set up a permanent gate!
Wizard: And destroy the monopoly that I and my guild-brothers have held over your heads for centuries? I think not.
Who's to say they wouldn't control it? Part of the deal is that they have to allow their apprentices to operate the transport device. Or they want a controlling stake in the board of directors or the guild. Or they set it up that only the bloodline of the crafter can operate the device. Many ways they could maintain control.
If they were making money they'd probably still accept the subsidies. More importantly they'd have the money to pony up enough to keep Christie from shutting them down. Since they depend on subsidies they can only appeal to the people who offered them subsidies in the first place. And that wasn't Christie.What?
They must need subsidies because if they didn't they be able to bribe Christie? What sense does that make?
No let's make this simpler. They don't make money that's why they need subsidies. They don't have money to really make political contributions (bribes). Thus they don't have political clout. Thus Christie listened to those who do have political clout.
On the subject of subsidies, plenty of businesses that do not need subsidies or tax breaks accept them. Tesla would probably still keep accepting the subsidies even if they were profitable. It is human nature.
Does that make sense?
What subsidies are we talking about? Of course they'd accept subsidies. Any business is going to take free money when they can get it, but what does that have to do with Tesla?
There's a long distance between "Makes enough money to stay in business" and "Makes enough money to outbribe one of the behemoths of American industry." In fact isn't that the original point. Established players cheat to take out the still small but better technology?
You are allowing your prejudices to color your view of Tesla motors thus the situation. Electric vehicles are not superior in any functional way than internal combustion engines. Internal combustion is a mature and tested technology gasoline is artificially kept high through taxation from one end of the pipeline to the other but still cheaper to run the vehicle on.
Range of travel, convenience, price, refueling capacity, maintenance, reliability, all of these favor internal combustion engines. That's why people haven't switch to electric vehicles. Yes they are quieter and have fewer emissions however unless you are using hydro-power (evil dam building that) you are producing emissions or radioactive waste to produce electricity. Don't mention solar or wind. They are more heavily subsidized than the Tesla motors and utterly useless for production of power on the scale to move more than a handful of hobbyists vehicles.
The whole point of the subsidies is that they cannot make it without subsidies. No money being made. Probably never be able to make enough and sell enough to make money. Magical transport is cheaper. Thus boatloads of money to spread around and plenty of incentive to do so.
Smaller yes, better not yet. Maybe never. If there were money to make in Tesla the established players would take their cut. Since their isn't they get subsidies and tax credits paid directly from their competitors. You're getting hung up on the fact they got shafted by the 'worse' company when the 'worse' company is making more money by unit and by volume.
More people use and continue to use internal combustion. Don't get me wrong if I was able to get a hold of the old Chevy electric vehicle they no longer make I would. I like quiet and would love a Tesla. Do I believe it is any way functionally superior to my massive GMC Suburban? No, I have many children and grandchildren and need to drive sometimes eight or nine kids plus luggage groceries etc. I live in a very rural area with dangerous roads. Slides, floods, trees across the roads are all things I contend with on a regular basis. I doubt the Tesla could clear any of those barriers or carry an ax and chainsaw to clear a tree or a tow rope to move it off the road.
Tesla doesn't make enough to stay in business. Absent green tax credits and subsidies Tesla would lose around $12,000 per vehicle. It's like the old joke, yeah I lose money with every sale but I make it up in volume.
Given the economically-driven motivations I've noted so far, I'm surprised that one reason I haven't heard yet in the circle-networks-would-not-exist camp is that wizards get to charge for each use of teleport individually, over and over - so only a wizard driven by non-economic reasons would ever set up a permanent, "free" service instead.
The original idea was that only very high level spellcasters would be able to provide the materials and expertise needed to create a teleport circle. After a quick browse in Inner Sea Magic I found that many of the 17+ spellcasters described there are also rulers, so the "teleportation circle" was originally suggested as an infrastructure project for a high-level spellcaster looking to advance his nation. The primary motivation was not personal greed but rather convenience, efficiency and wealth for a country.
However the more we delve into it the easier it is to get off the ground - I'm not sure if the "high level spellcaster only" limitation holds up anymore.
On the other hand, the easier it is to establish a teleportation circle, the harder it will be to maintain a monopoly on it. Once someone realizes how you're doing it, they can replicate it.
I just realized the first ruler to do this would also start a teleportation arms-race. Knowing that the neighboring country has the ability to effortlessly and instantly drop an army anywhere they wish...
Mutually assured destruction by teleport?
The cost to create the actual magical circle isn't much compared to the pier, but that's the equivalent to "having water." Presuming you're going to need resources to load/unload cargo, places to house customs officials, warehouses to store items until they can be expected, guards, and all the other miscellany that comes with a trade node, the actual cost would be at least as much as a pier in kingdom-building terms. Plus the cost of the teleporter.
I mean it doesn't cost 16 BP just to put some planks out in the water.
Fair enough, let's consider the teleportation circle and the teleportation facility separately. A pier costs 16 BP and is described as Warehouses and workshops for docking ships and handling cargo and passengers. As you said, I expect that also contains the resources to load/unload cargo, customs officials, warehouses, guards etc.
Presumably we won't need the ship workshops, nor will we need the actual pier, so I find it reasonable that we should get some kind of discount for our "teleportation circle structure" since it serves the same purpose as the dock, only with less inconvenience as you won't have to deal with ships, water, docks, cranes, and so on.
Looking to Ultimate Rulership (3rd party but written by Jason Nelson, who also helped write the Kingdom rules), the price of a warehouse (a cavernous structure or cluster of buildings for storage
and transfer of trade goods) is 8 BP. Interestingly the warehouse takes up two lots, while the pier only takes up 1 - we're getting quite a lot of storage place for our buck.
So you pay 6 BP for the teleportation circle, another 8 for the warehouse, and throw in 2 BP representing the handling of passengers and taxation and so on. You're still coming at the same price as the pier. And that's before you start considering the cost of the actual ships.
Hell, the worst possible situation is that you use the pier structure and just ditch the actual pier aspect of it. You pay 6 BP more, but in return you have transporters.
Karl: I thought the basis of your argument in favor of circles was that transporters of goods will seek the lowest possible cost. It is economically illogical for the wizards to sell access to a circle for less than they would charge for individual teleports: therefore what they charge for each trip would be the same as for teleport (if not greater teleport) per access. Even though teleportation circle (according to the usual costs for paying for cast spells) ought to be a bargain over the long run, any NPC wizard whose Intelligence is roleplayed properly would not offer the service - except for situations when the wizard isn't trying to profit. You dig?
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to all magical transport and just using the circle as an example. It doesn't matter what form the magical transport uses as long as it is cheaper.
Other benefits for the crafter/creator is if he simply uses a very simple spell or magical ritual to move the items every time. That would allow him to train apprentices or 'promising' family members with little risk and effort.
Other benefits are gaining contacts in the merchant and gentry, access to high priced spices and rare goods and communication easily and cheaply across vast distances (mail service) which he again charges for.
Moving small but valuable items would more than pay for itself. Spices, rare minerals or magical components, mail and messages etc. The magical method isn't really important here only that it is vastly cheaper over long distances and probably moderately cheaper over medium distance with the advantage that the information and orders of an empire could move much faster.
Are you counting the cost of setting up a circle at the other end? The facilities around that end might be the responsibility of the ruler there, but until you have two-way teleportation, all you have is a big empty room, right?
(Also, shipping can sail to more than one location with only a negligible increase in costs, while each new pair of circles is its own dedicated expense.)
Shipping lines establish shipping lines because it is risky (economically and otherwise) to vary from that. You need the stability in regular deliveries to regular customers. Shipping to other locations has costs that are far from negligible. You need to have a port that can and will cater your company and type of vessel there needs to be the type of resupply that your ship and crew need reliably there. You need to have the security that the waters are charted and free of pirates (in a fantasy setting I would add monsters).
For items like big shipments of grain from Egypt to Rome, I believe the big barges will still move. Pirates don't have much reason to hijack them and navies can and will provide escort if for no other reason than to keep their ships and men in trim and establish a presence. For small, valuable, perishable, or time sensitive things like mail, orders, government decrees, taxes, important personages, etc magical transport has it beat to heck.
If you really must have pirates and such a better (more fun) solution is skyships as long as they fit your story. Ships that travel hundreds of miles in a day with great sails or propellers powered by great monsters or spells. 'Lift wood' or a lifting sphere of some kind or maybe just go with a zeppelin (not quite as cool I know).
Still magical, still swashbucklery, still funner than simple teleports from a to b and you still get your pirates, privateers, swashbucklers, boarding actions, stern chases etc.
It's a thought anyway.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to all magical transport and just using the circle as an example. It doesn't matter what form the magical transport uses as long as it is cheaper.OK, thanks for clearing that up.
I still see areas (as you say) where physical means would be simpler or cheaper, but I agree that a lot of the "you must guard this caravan of valuablonium as it crosses the Waste of 1001 Monsters" plots don't make much sense as soon as the time and money costs exceed those of hiring a wizard of sufficient power.
I agree my grandfather moved goods via a pack line of mules and horses in the mountains of Idaho while airplanes moved airmail. He rode a horse to work while others rode a car or train or plane.
The old world doesn't have to cease just because some situations change. Personally, I am an Iron age, Hyborian age, bronze age, Greek and Norse fan so probably wouldn't be using lots of magical cargo moving in my games but that's just me. Unless I was doing a 'magical' Barsoom campaign in which case Pathfinder might be just the right power levels.
Actually, even grain is pretty perishable. What with water and rodents and bugs and things.
Of course, if we're in the Tippyverse anyway, there have to be better ways to get food than growing and shipping it. :)
I believe the default option is automatic reset Create Food & Water traps, or Goodberry traps if you can get a hold of enough berries. The Food & Water trap breaks even with meal costs after ~11 days, the Goodberry trap much, much faster.
3.x really breaks down fast if you play the rules straight and don't limit magical solutions to mundane problems.
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This conversation is getting really ridiculous and pointless. Too much back and forth and no give.
Lets try some math here:
Spellcasing service: Caster level × spell level × 10 gp
Cost to have wizard of minimum level cast Teleport:
11 x 5 x 10 = 550 gp
1100 mile limit.
Only able to bring up to maximum load.
Caster is able to bring four others with them.
97% chance of success.
Cost to have wizard of minimum level cast Greater Teleport:
15 x 7 x 10 = 1050
No distance limit.
Only able to carry maximum load.
Caster is able to bring six others with them.
100% chance of success.
Ring Gates
40,000 gp
100 mile limit
100 pound limit
100% chance of success
Boots of teleportation
49,000 gp
Can be used 3 times a day.
One person limit.
Maximum load limit.
97% chance of success.
Helm of teleportation
73,500 gp
Can be used 3 times a day.
One person limit.
Maximum load limit.
97% chance of success.
Lets assume that we are using heroic NPC stats for the wizard and standard for any helpers they are using to carry commodities. Lets assume they are all human.
We can thus give the wizard the following stats:
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 8
Carrying capacity: 150
We can give the helpers (making them Expert class,) the following stats:
Str 15, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8
Carrying capacity: 200
We need to figure out what to sell the commodities for in order to beak even. Lets not worry about what the commodity cost us to buy to keep things simpler, and just assume everything here is working on the same good all bought at the same price.
Lets not use any other feats, spells or magic items right now. If we then assume everyone carried along in the teleport is carrying their max load we find the following:
Method . . . . . . . Break Even Price Per Pound
Teleport . . . . . . 550 / 950 = 0.58 gp
Greater Teleport . . 1050 / 950 = 1.11 gp
Ring Gates . . . . . 40,000 / 100 = 400 gp
Boots of Teleport . . 49,000 / 600 = 81.67 gp
Helm of Teleport . . 73,500 / 600 = 122.5 gp
We can see that a simple teleport spell cast by a wizard is the most profitable. For the Ring Gates we are looking at trying to break even on a single day's use. For the boots and helm we are looking at three uses in a single day, trying to break even in that amount of time.
Magic items have the advantage of being able to use them over and over again, meaning you can spread out their cost over time. A smart merchant would want to see a return on investment sooner or later, so lets see what is needed to see a return after a year.
Method . . . . . Break Even Price Per Pound
Ring Gates . . . 40,000 / 36,500 = 1.10 gp
Boots . . . . . . 49,000 / 219,000 = 0.22 gp
Helm . . . . . . 73,500 / 219,000 = 0.34 gp
Meaning the boots would be the better investment if you wanted to see a return in a year. In fact, they could be considered more profitable than hiring a wizard every day to transport goods for you.
Now lets look at shipping things the normal way. Assuming the merchant bought the vessel and is hiring the crew, what is needed to break even on his investment in a single trip?
Sailing Ship (from Ultmate Combat vehicle rules,)
10,000 gp
Crew cost for one day: 7 gp (20 crew paid 3 sp a day, 1 captain paid 1 gp a day.)
150 tons of cargo (I am assuming US tons.)
If the voyage was a week you would have a break even price per pound of 10,049 / 300,000 = 0.035 gp.
If the voyage was a month: 10,210 / 300,000 = 0.034 gp
Of course a sailing ship is an item that can be used over and over again, so you can spread out the cost over time to help pay for the investment. This makes the sailing ship a way better investment than any magic item if all you want to do is move goods from one place to another.
This of course doesn't take into account all the expenses a merchant might come across in shipping his wares, just the cost of transportation. No matter the method he would probably need to pay guild fees, taxes, license fees, warehouse fees, and so on.
So, the answer seems to be pretty straight forward here. It isn't prolific because it isn't the most cost effective.
This isn't saying they don't use magic, just that it isn't cost effective for most goods.
*Edit* I am working on a follow up post that shows how you can get more out of teleport if your goal is to move the most stuff.
Of course a sailing ship is an item that can be used over and over again, so you can spread out the cost over time to help pay for the investment. This makes the sailing ship a way better investment than any magic item if all you want to do is move goods from one place to another.
This of course doesn't take into account all the expenses a merchant might come across in shipping his wares, just the cost of transportation. No matter the method he would probably need to pay guild fees, taxes, license fees, warehouse fees, and so on.
Q:
Yeah, but how far can you get in a month at 2 miles per hour, which is the listed speed for sailing ships?A:
1,488 miles, or roughly the distance between England and Gibraltar. Not exactly India.
If the scope of your campaign is a region half the size of the Mediterranean Sea, I can see vessel shipping still having some bearing on the economy.
While the logistical reasons that various transportation methods exist can be a fascinating topic for some, I don't think either of you is going to convince the other if you haven't already.
Given the economically-driven motivations I've noted so far, I'm surprised that one reason I haven't heard yet in the circle-networks-would-not-exist camp is that wizards get to charge for each use of teleport individually, over and over - so only a wizard driven by non-economic reasons would ever set up a permanent, "free" service instead.
Merchant: I'll give you a million gold pieces to set up a permanent gate!
Wizard: And destroy the monopoly that I and my guild-brothers have held over your heads for centuries? I think not.
That only works so long as all the wizards involved can afford to play the long-term profit game. Given the kinds of things high-level casters need to deal with, it's entirely possible that one could be in a situation where they're willing to sacrifice long-term profits to deal with an immediate problem. Especially if more than money is on the table as payment.
Also, the problem with the idea that all the high-level casters would try to keep a highly restrictive monopoly on teleportation magic is that all the high-level wizards aren't a hive-mind. Even if all the high-level casters came to some sort of agreement, odds are that eventually one of them will either have a personal interest that compels him to break the agreement, or one of them will get greedy and/or think he can break the rules without getting caught. There's a reason real-life cartels have always proven unsustainable in the long term.
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Of course a sailing ship is an item that can be used over and over again, so you can spread out the cost over time to help pay for the investment. This makes the sailing ship a way better investment than any magic item if all you want to do is move goods from one place to another.
This of course doesn't take into account all the expenses a merchant might come across in shipping his wares, just the cost of transportation. No matter the method he would probably need to pay guild fees, taxes, license fees, warehouse fees, and so on.
Q:
Yeah, but how far can you get in a month at 2 miles per hour, which is the listed speed for sailing ships?A:
1,488 miles, or roughly the distance between England and Gibraltar. Not exactly India.If the scope of your campaign is a region half the size of the Mediterranean Sea, I can see vessel shipping still having some bearing on the economy.
Okay... A year long voyage with a newly purchased ship would have a cost per pound of about 0.042 gp.
Teleport needs 316 castings to move as much a ship, so if a voyage is going to take longer than that you might as well use teleport.
Point is that ships are more profitable in the long run. If you can wait for the goods to be moved and sold you will make more money in the long run with ships. You also move a substantially larger amount of goods with ships, so a larger single payout.
More on all this in a moment... still working on an interesting related post.
Of course a sailing ship is an item that can be used over and over again, so you can spread out the cost over time to help pay for the investment. This makes the sailing ship a way better investment than any magic item if all you want to do is move goods from one place to another.
This of course doesn't take into account all the expenses a merchant might come across in shipping his wares, just the cost of transportation. No matter the method he would probably need to pay guild fees, taxes, license fees, warehouse fees, and so on.
Q:
Yeah, but how far can you get in a month at 2 miles per hour, which is the listed speed for sailing ships?A:
1,488 miles, or roughly the distance between England and Gibraltar. Not exactly India.If the scope of your campaign is a region half the size of the Mediterranean Sea, I can see vessel shipping still having some bearing on the economy.
He just showed it was ten times cheaper per pound for a month's travel. So roughly 14,880 miles at exactly the same price per pound? Caleb wins. All your "economy demands it" arguments are shot to crap. If shipping is cheaper than teleporting before you try a bunch of portable holes or a mastodon with an ant haul belt, then it's cheaper to ship a cargo full of portable holes in their 150 ton hold too.
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In case people were curious as to what tricks could be used to maximize the effectiveness of a properly cast teleport:
Assume the wizard and the four other people with him have the stats above. Let say the four others have the Pack Master feat from the Hirelings pdf. That would move the total weight carried to 1190 pounds without increasing the cost. This makes the break even price per pound 0.47 gp.
All of the above plus all five have masterwork backpacks:
Total weight carried: 1375.
The cost increases: 800.
Price per pound: 0.58 gp.
This is exactly the same as using teleport normally.
All of the above plus muleback cords for all:
Total weight: 4200
Cost: 5800
Price per pound: 1.38 gp
Not really cost effective at all.
Change out muleback cords for five castings of Ant Haul:
Total weight carried: 4125
Cost: 850
Price per pound: 0.21
Much better. This is more than half the price per pound as a normal teleport.
The above but the four helpers belong to a race that has a +4 to Strength (like orc.)
Total weight carried: 5325
Cost: 850 gp
Price per pound: 0.16 gp
Now almost four times cheaper.
Is there anything else we can do? We can use beasts of burden. For the sake of simplicity, we just replace all four helpers with them. I choose to oxen, and used the auroch stats. They were given masterwork packs (act as masterwork backpacks,) and had ant haul cast on them.
Total weight carried: 25,725 pounds
Cost: 1650 gp
Price per pound: 0.064
So much better.
We could probably get this even cheaper with more spells.
The above plus Bull's strength on everyone
Weight: 44100
Cost: 1950
Price per pound: 0.045
We are almost at where a sailing ship is.
There may be more spells we can cast, but you have keep them at no more than third level spells if you want to keep seeing it get cheaper. Also, adding muleback cords won't make things cheaper, but it will increase the amount you can carry.
However, I would love to see someone find a way to reliably stack 44,100+ pounds of goods on five people/beasts without ruining the containers or the goods. There also might end up being unforeseen issues with that much stuff being teleported. I doubt when the spell was created consideration was given to all the ways someone could increase their carrying capacity. In fact, nearly all the things used above didn't even exist when it was originally written.
There are creatures out there that can teleport at will.
A few of them are subject to Planar Binding.
One enterprising wizard could set up a business that employed Bound teleporting outsiders with a few bags of holding or portable holes to deliver goods quickly and efficiently. They could probably charge more just for the speed they deliver at. If we could figure out a way for customers to place orders from long distances this would be a fantastic business model.
I'm picturing Hound Archons in UPS uniforms...
How about enchanting a ship with the intelligent item rules, and giving it teleport. So many ways with "magic" to break immersion in a game world. Ultimately if you prefer a game world with a gritty feel, where logic generally holds true, you need to get rid of some of the more high fantasy aspects pathfinder provides. If teleport exists, it would reshape the face of any game world almost immediately. Look to RL and our constant need for "more speed" in everything. Faster ships, planes, communications, etc.
There are creatures out there that can teleport at will.
A few of them are subject to Planar Binding.
One enterprising wizard could set up a business that employed Bound teleporting outsiders with a few bags of holding or portable holes to deliver goods quickly and efficiently. They could probably charge more just for the speed they deliver at. If we could figure out a way for customers to place orders from long distances this would be a fantastic business model.
I'm picturing Hound Archons in UPS uniforms...
HAHA, I forgot certain monsters summoned can teleport too. Which is sad, as in the WotR game I'm playing in, we use Hound Archons for instant long distance communication.
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Also your carrying capacity's are way to low. If he can bring 4 medium creatures he can bring 1 huge creature. A mastodon with +2 belt of str, a heavy lift belt and mule back chords cost 11k i think once you change around the slots to work on it. That think can carry 115 tons. If that is to exotic for your tastes use two advance horses with the same magic items. The two horses carry half as much and cost more to set up but will still be better then a ship.
Okay, lets look at this.
Mastadon cost: 2000 gp
Belt: 7000 gp (4000 Str belt + (2000 *1.5) heavy lift)
Muleback Cords: 1000
Teleport: 550
Total: 10,550
Wizard has bull's strength and ant haul.
Total Weight: 202,500
Price per pound: 0.052
The ship still wins.
However, a few changes to your suggestions:
Mastadon: 2000 gp
Ant haul, bull's strength, and teleport: 870
Muleback cords for both: 2000
Cost: 4870
Weight: 267,720
Price per pound: 0.018
Better than the ship in price per pound but we are still not at the 300k pounds the ship can carry.
Out of curiosity let's look at this another way. If the cargo on both ship and mastadon was purchased at 1 gp a pound and sold at 2 gp a pound what is the profit from the each sell?
Ship: (300,000 x 2) - (300,00 x 1.034) = 289,800
Mastadon: (267,720 x 2) - (267,720 x 1.018) = 262,901
If a single use of one is compared to the single use of another the ship still wins.
Yes you could do 30 teleportations in the time it takes 1 ship to do a shipment, but you would probably end up saturating a market in that time with 133 tons hitting market each day. You would also have to find 133 tons of goods to buy, which certainly takes more than a day to do.
If you followed the idea of using a mastadon, you would need to find one. They are very rare. An elephant is more common, but they have never been domesticated and are unreliable in the long term as a work force. They also only carry 172,800 pounds with all the methods used above (oh, and I added a masterwork backpack.) They need lots of space, other elephants to socialize with, and a great deal of food. Even if you were able to find the markets to sustain a teleport a day, you would need to make sure you have more than one elephant for the work. Otherwise you might have either an angry one or a dead one.
Meanwhile, the guy with the ship only has to pay for sailors and has all the time he needs to find good to buy and a place to sell them. He doesn't have to worry about saturating his market with longer periods of time between shipments, and sees a larger payout when the goods do sell.
Yes, many payouts are better than one, but only if you can sustain the many. As people keep presenting things with teleport, I am not convinced it is sustainable, or even completely possible. I can see a merchant wizard teleporting goods once to two times a month, but no more. Meaning it often isn't as profitable for ships and therefore not as likely for common merchants to use.
Also your carrying capacity's are way to low. If he can bring 4 medium creatures he can bring 1 huge creature. A mastodon with +2 belt of str, a heavy lift belt and mule back chords cost 11k i think once you change around the slots to work on it. That think can carry 115 tons. If that is to exotic for your tastes use two advance horses with the same magic items. The two horses carry half as much and cost more to set up but will still be better then a ship.Okay, lets look at this.
Mastadon cost: 2000 gp
Belt: 7000 gp (4000 Str belt + (2000 *1.5) heavy lift)
Muleback Cords: 1000
Teleport: 550
Total: 10,550Wizard has bull's strength and ant haul.
Total Weight: 202,500
Price per pound: 0.052
The ship still wins.
However, a few changes to your suggestions:
Mastadon: 2000 gp
Ant haul, bull's strength, and teleport: 870
Muleback cords for both: 2000
Cost: 4870
Weight: 267,720Price per pound: 0.018
Better than the ship in price per pound but we are still not at the 300k pounds the ship can carry.
Out of curiosity let's look at this another way. If the cargo on both ship and mastadon was purchased at 1 gp a pound and sold at 2 gp a pound what is the profit from the each sell?
Ship: (300,000 x 2) - (300,00 x 1.034) = 289,800
Mastadon: (267,720 x 2) - (267,720 x 1.018) = 262,901If a single use of one is compared to the single use of another the ship still wins.
Yes you could do 30 teleportations in the time it takes 1 ship to do a shipment, but you would probably end up saturating a market in that time with 133 tons hitting market each day. You would also have to find 133 tons of goods to buy, which certainly takes more than a day to do.
If you followed the idea of using a mastadon, you would need to find one. They are very rare. An elephant is more common, but they have never been domesticated and are unreliable in the long term as a work force. They also only carry 172,800 pounds with all the methods used above (oh, and I added a masterwork backpack.) They need lots of space, other elephants to socialize with, and a great deal of food. Even if you were able to find the markets to sustain a teleport a day, you would need to make sure you have more than one elephant for the work. Otherwise you might have either an angry one or a dead one.
Meanwhile, the guy with the ship only has to pay for sailors and has all the time he needs to find good to buy and a place to sell them. He doesn't have to worry about saturating his market with longer periods of time between shipments, and sees a larger payout when the goods do sell.
Yes, many payouts are better than one, but only if you can sustain the many. As people keep presenting things with teleport, I am not convinced it is sustainable, or even completely possible. I can see a merchant wizard teleporting goods once to two times a month, but no more. Meaning it often isn't as profitable for ships and therefore not as likely for common merchants to use.
Thank you for making the case for magical transport so thoroughly. Elephants are not domesticated or useful in the workforce. Well while not strictly domesticated, they are very useful and until recent years maintained logging camps throughout Asia. They were used for thousands of years and the 'go to' beast of burden when they could be afforded and cared for (not everyone was capable) but when they were they were top choice for top weight.
Now to the ship 'only has a crew to pay'? Well that is certainly one opinion not true mind but an opinion. The ship still needs to pay docking, maintenance, pilots' fees, tariffs from each area it passes to and from (don't for get those, locks, straights, and harbors). In addition, every ship needs worry about weather, pirates, magical monsters, as well as the more mundane, damage, spoilage, perishablity and pilfering as opposed to the outright theft by the 'tiny' crew of a big sailing ship which also occurs.
Finally, after all those factors are considered. Lets look at these moving oh so quickly goal posts. The ship makes one trip one way and the magical movers make 133. Okay, so the first trip the ships cheaper the second, well not so much however, while the ships in gone or sailing the touts for the magical movers are going from each dockhouse, warehouse, merchants quarter, producer, shop manager of any size, and caravansaries in the area with flyers, broadsheets and criers selling the next days instan-freaking-taneous shipment with no ship, tariffs from in between places, pilfering, pirates, etc. Suddenly everybody can purchase a spot 'in the big market' sign up, have your cargo at the magical transport and tomorrow it's in 'x' town.
Big merchants, bonus if you get your goods to market early? Well look no further while your competitions' cargo is getting moldy on ship yours is sold for gold right then right there on the return trip tomorrow. Move perishable goods that die on ship or get sick easily, slaves, animals, monsters, monster-slaves, no more losses due to dying, your perishable goods are delivered tomorrow. No not tomorrow, tomorrow and the next day are full up already, you get your stuff delivered next Thursday, still quicker and with far fewer losses than otherwise, no?
Further lets look at places you cannot get a ship to due to pirates, greedy kings and warlords between here and there, no known sea routes, landlocked etc (silk road). 'You can get me all the tea in the warehouse in Khitan by Wednesday? This Wednesday? Not next year on a maybe get's robbed by bandits, maybe not basis? Skipping all the tariffs, tolls, extortion, and bribery between Khitan and here? Sign me up. The government can get all the wheat to market before spoilage? Shippers can move beef, pork, and dairy to market same day? No more food riots, no risk of pirates causing a panic, no risk of rising bread prices and cheaper exhibits for the games? Yeah we'll take that.
Sail was used until the twentieth century. Still profitable next to steam for a hundred years. But never as reliable and except for a very small class of very specialized ships never near as fast. Just that slight difference doomed sail.
Being able to have everything perishable, everything time sensitive, everything you didn't have a market for because you simply couldn't get it there before it was useless sludge or it spoiled completely, every government order, every tax receipt, every Imperial decree, King's address, bureaucratic form, order, whim instantly sent across the world? Being able to ensure inland cities 'water transport' levels of goods and services instantly? Dukes and duchesses, lords and ladies, even the common folk get their expected goods in market on time reliably and in bulk never thought of before. 'Nice cuppa governor', tea that most sought after of English staples is now brought in quickly and bulk. No more recycling blocks of 'tea' (mostly sticks, twigs, trash, and some ink stains) except for the very poorest of poor beggars everyone can afford at least poor tea. Let's talk beef, cheap or free some places dear somewhere else. Now you can get fresh beef to the butchers and government warehouses all over the capital. Meat changes the whole dynamic and provides regular cheap protein for the populace.
Now lets talk spices, expensive liqueurs, wines, delicacies, alchemical ingredients, jewelery, gold, silver, etc. Silver sat on the docks in Panama simply because gold was being shipped. Now? No more all goes to the capital the next day.
Bread riots in the capital? Nope not happening anymore because there is almost always enough food produced it's just hard to get to market and processed reliably. Need animals and captives for the games from exotic places?
No brainer, magic wins every time. Thank you for making the case more thoroughly than I ever could.
I just have to say that 2 miles/hour is extremely low sailing speed estimate. That seems to be about a worst case scenario (low or unfavorable winds) for ancient Roman or Greek ships. Much of Golarion runs closer to Renaissance tech and should be significantly faster.
And able to sail closer to the wind, which will help as much as raw speed.Edit: That's also assuming there are no magical enhancements to the sailing. Weather control anyone?
Everything you said is true as well, but the core rules say 2 mph for boats, or 48 miles per day.
If you translate the boat movement speed in feet per round, though, to an over-water speed, then you could divide the number by ten and express it in nautical miles per hour. (knots) The unit conversion comes out very cleanly. That makes all boat speeds much higher, but also may be wind direction dependent for some vessels. Don't forget to bring your Druid. Control Weather is quite nice.
And again, that's what we did in our group's setting, which is very boat/pirate oriented.
Teleport needs 316 castings to move as much a ship...
Not if you've really capitalized on extradimensional spaces it doesn't.
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Extradimensional Spaces
Let us look at math then. Because we know both their weight limits and their cost we can figure out the item's individual price per pound.
Bags of Holding
Type I
Capacity: 250 pounds
Cost: 2,500 gp
Price per Pound: 10 gp per pound.
Type II
Capacity: 500 pounds
Cost: 5,000 gp
Price per Pound: 10 gp per pound
Type III
Capacity: 1,000 pounds
Cost: 7,400 gp
Price per Pound: 7.4 gp per pound
Type IV
Capacity: 1,500 pounds
Cost: 10,000
Price per Pound: 6.67 gp per pound.
Portable Hole
Capacity: 750 - 1000 pounds (Estimated based on the volume and comparing it to bags of holding.)
Cost: 20,000 gp
Price per Pound: 26.67 - 20 gp per pound.
As we can see, not very cost effective. They are items and thus the cost can be spread out over time so this isn't a huge issue. But it seems some people are missing a key fact in their arguments, and that is that ships and teleporters can both use these items effectively.
In fact, lets look at what we find when we have both the ship and a teleporting mastodon carry the maximum number of Type IV bags.
Method . . . . . Number of Bags
Ship . . . . . . 300,000 / 60 = 5,000, 5000 x 1,500 = 7,500,000 pounds carried
Mastodon . . . . 267,720 / 60 = 4,462, 4,462 x 1,500 = 6,693,00 pounds carried
@Karl
Not trying to be insulting or mean but I had a really, really hard time reading and understanding your argument. It could be me, as I do have a cold right now, but it was unclear and not well organized. As a result I apologize if it appears I misunderstood you and don't address your points clearly.
Unfortunately I feel as if you are reading into the results of the math what you want to read into it. If anything, the math shows that both ships and teleporting can be profitable. What I can't currently show with math are things like chances of loss through piracy, fees, tariffs, and other expenses, which you seem to make large assumptions about in your arguments. I will try to find what information I can to do the math on as much as I can in those areas so we are no longer making such assumptions. Until that is done, I feel is it dangerous to the discussion to make huge, unsupported assumptions about such things.
Questions that arise from your arguments:
What is the average percentage that a ship will fall to piracy?
Is it less or more than a teleport mishap?
What exactly are the average total fees that the owner of the ship will pay?
Wouldn't a teleporting merchant also have to pay fees?
If so, what would their average total be?
I suspect that piracy in the real world wasn't nearly as prevalent as people keep assuming. The risk was certainly higher in some areas and during specific times, but I really, really doubt that it is higher than 5%. I can't say for sure until some research can be done. Merchants of any kind will know of such risks and prepare accordingly. They would probably take out insurance on their goods to start, and plan as safe a route as they can.
You also seem to assume that pirates means total loss. Pirates didn't always take everything, and it was highly uncommon to sink a ship. They would only take a ship if had the man power to sail it, if it was better than one they currently had, or if they knew they could sell the ship elsewhere. Most "piracy" in the Age of Sail came from privateers during times of war, and while common merchants did see some loss from this it was mostly military vessels or treasure ships tied to a specific nation that were taken.
The average probability of piracy probably is comparable to a teleport mishap. I can't say for sure though. I can say with some certainty that teleport mishaps are safer than a piracy event. Teleport mishaps just mean you end up somewhere you didn't intend to be. Yes, sometimes that means in the middle of wall, but not always. But if the average percentage chance of piracy is lower, that advantage only equalizes the two risks.
Another large assumption that several people keep making in this discussion is that teleporting will have no fees attached to it. This is something I can't easily find a mathematical answer to. I am fairly certain that it will see just as many fees, if not more, than using ships. This is the main reason why I didn't really consider them. Any nation or city is going to be aware of how goods are moved into and out of it, and will have taxes, fees, and tariffs attached to those methods. We can say, though ,that teleporting is great for smuggling. Up until the city or nation pays to develop ways to detect and fight it.
Lastly, there seems to be this assumption that most or all goods are horribly perishable. Any merchant that is going to move goods long distance is going to make sure they are goods that will last beyond the time it takes to transport them. This is why things like tobacco, coaco, and coffee were and still are great exports/imports. Also, salt, most spices, precious metals, lumber, and slaves.
You do have a great point in that teleporting is great for instant gratification. If you want something right now and it isn't in your local area teleporting would be the best way to get it.
Many people also seem to be ignoring supply and demand. The amount shipped of one good is going to also depend the demand for it. If the population you are unloading your goods on can only consume one shipment of it a month you are only going to do one shipment a month. Doing more will drop the price of the good and hurt your profits. This is honestly a bit too simple. A city that needs a good shipped to it will have many merchants delivering it.
This does mean that there are some situations where teleporting our rare mastodons around will be the best choice. Lets say a city needs 7,000,000 pounds of a good a month, and is a month away if you sail there. You are a teleporting merchant in another city, and this city has a monopoly on that good. There are three other merchants that cover this good but you know they only use ships. The demand for this good calls for about 24 shipments a month, or 48 ships (half going and half coming,) but your competitors only have a total of 18 ships. This is where you going to make big bank. You are able to easily make the 15 shipments they can't make, and thus earn a larger piece of the pie.
However, if there were enough competitors with enough ships to move this good so that you only had to make up for a few shipments, you would probably only make as much as your competitors. If you tried to beat your competitors to the punch and do all of the shipments you would run into giant problems once their shipments started to arrive, and they would probably be smart enough to space out the shipments so that there was only one or two arriving a day. Soon, between your shipment everyday/everyother day and their daily shipments, you would saturate your market with the good and drive prices down until the good is worthless.
Teleporting is only more profitable than using ships if you can move more goods with it. You can only do that if it is sustainable to do so, following the law of supply and demand. For most situations huge bulk shipments with teleport is not sustainable. That is probably the biggest advantage that shipping has over teleporting.
Once again, I am not arguing that there are not merchants using teleporting methods of shipping. I am sure that there would be a minority using it, doing many, many smaller shipments to keep it sustainable and still profitable. But sailing ships are still the best for huge bulk shipments over long distances.
Teleport needs 316 castings to move as much a ship...Not if you've really capitalized on extradimensional spaces it doesn't.
So teleporters can use extradimensional spaces but ships can't? Nice try.
Note: to have an even cost comparison, you'd have to compare the cost of the ship vs the cost of extra dimensional containers.
==Aelryinth
However, a few changes to your suggestions:
Mastadon: 2000 gp
Ant haul, bull's strength, and teleport: 870
Muleback cords for both: 2000
Cost: 4870
Weight: 267,720
Bull's strength is minutes/level. Embarking 267,720 lbs of cargo, whether on ship or on mastodon, is almost certainly >>> minutes/level.
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Bull's strength is minutes/level. Embarking 267,720 lbs of cargo, whether on ship or on mastodon, is almost certainly >>> minutes/level.
However, a few changes to your suggestions:
Mastadon: 2000 gp
Ant haul, bull's strength, and teleport: 870
Muleback cords for both: 2000
Cost: 4870
Weight: 267,720
Good catch.
I would point out though that it only needs to last as long as it takes to teleport. You can overload the mastodon before and after that, or have some sort of system set up to quickly add or remove the weight that spell would allow the mastodon to carry. I don't have my personal computer so I can't currently tell you exactly what the weight difference is with or without it.
Also, the mastodon can still lift and move double their maximum load, but only at 5 feet per round. So you could have it loaded up well before you cast bull's strength without worrying about crushing or killing it.
*EDIT*
Note: to have an even cost comparison, you'd have to compare the cost of the ship vs the cost of extra dimensional containers.
==Aelryinth
I am not sure why. Those containers can be used by ships just as much as the teleporting pachyderms.
Also, I am sure I am not the only one who can do math. The game does use it quite a great deal after all. If you feel a comparison must be made mathematically then please feel free to make it. I would love to see the results without having to take the time to find them myself.
Actually, getting the 'cargo' attached to the mastodon can take only a minute or two.
What you do is put the mastodon on a platform, and the cargo on a rig around and below it, already attached to the rig. Then you attach the rig to the mastodon, and either winch up/tighten the cargo, or lower the ground away from the mastodon.
You can do all the balancing work ahead of time.
Your destination just needs to be a similar point where the elephant can lower the items to the ground, the rig is removed, and you're done.
Would take a little bit of work to accomplish, but probably not as much as a major stone pier.
==Aelryinth
The bigger question might be why has some enterprising level 17 caster not set up a series of permanent teleportation circles linking together the major trade hubs of the world. Sure some governments might be leery of a doorway into the heart of their cities but with sufficient security around them you are still looking at a huge increase in convenience.
Provided by me, of course, the Super Duper Trustworthy Wizard!
*Later...*
Hey, guys. Oh, all those golems protecting your summoning circle went haywire? You need my help to calm them down?
Say, about these taxes I noticed you've been putting on my goods...
Caleb, I was talking about the extradimensional stuff.
I.e. you can pay x for a portable hole, or x+y for a ship. Which would you do?
Throwing extra dimensional stuff on a ship is adding more and more cost to the ship.
Teleport is a service expense, not a sunk cost.
A permanent teleport circle is a sunk cost, which you would then compare to how many ships and ships lost and such you'd have to compare to, to break even.
==Aelryinth
Extradimensional Spaces
Let us look at math then. Because we know both their weight limits and their cost we can figure out the item's individual price per pound.
Bags of Holding
Type I
Capacity: 250 pounds
Cost: 2,500 gp
Price per Pound: 10 gp per pound.Type II
Capacity: 500 pounds
Cost: 5,000 gp
Price per Pound: 10 gp per poundType III
Capacity: 1,000 pounds
Cost: 7,400 gp
Price per Pound: 7.4 gp per poundType IV
Capacity: 1,500 pounds
Cost: 10,000
Price per Pound: 6.67 gp per pound.Portable Hole
Capacity: 750 - 1000 pounds (Estimated based on the volume and comparing it to bags of holding.)
Cost: 20,000 gp
Price per Pound: 26.67 - 20 gp per pound.As we can see, not very cost effective. They are items and thus the cost can be spread out over time so this isn't a huge issue. But it seems some people are missing a key fact in their arguments, and that is that ships and teleporters can both use these items effectively.
In fact, lets look at what we find when we have both the ship and a teleporting mastodon carry the maximum number of Type IV bags.
Method . . . . . Number of Bags
Ship . . . . . . 300,000 / 60 = 5,000, 5000 x 1,500 = 7,500,000 pounds carried
Mastodon . . . . 267,720 / 60 = 4,462, 4,462 x 1,500 = 6,693,00 pounds carried@Karl
Not trying to be insulting or mean but I had a really, really hard time reading and understanding your argument. It could be me, as I do have a cold right now, but it was unclear and not well organized. As a result I apologize if it appears I misunderstood you and don't address your points clearly.
Unfortunately I feel as if you are reading into the results of the math what you want to read into it. If anything, the math shows that both ships and teleporting can be profitable. What I can't currently show with math are things like chances of loss through piracy, fees, tariffs, and other expenses, which you seem to make large assumptions about in your arguments. I will try to find what information...
Nope I read into it exactly what you wrote (I believe). The shipping via magic was near the same price to set up then much, much faster (and possibly cheaper on subsequent trips although I'll admit I have the flu so I am also having issues). If I am wrong, I apologize.
Yes sorry it was long and rambling. I was making several points. However, the main point and the most important was speed. Speed wins in shipping all else being equal. And the prices you quote are very nearly equal.
If Rome could have shipped all the grain from Egypt to Rome for slightly more cost it would have in a heartbeat. If merchants could have done the same they would have as well.
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Caleb, I was talking about the extradimensional stuff.
I.e. you can pay x for a portable hole, or x+y for a ship. Which would you do?
Throwing extra dimensional stuff on a ship is adding more and more cost to the ship.
Teleport is a service expense, not a sunk cost.
A permanent teleport circle is a sunk cost, which you would then compare to how many ships and ships lost and such you'd have to compare to, to break even.
==Aelryinth
Ahh, got it. Didn't I do that already above in my latest giant post? The ship is by far cheaper in price per pound when compared to bags of holding and portable holes.
Ship . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.034 gp per pound
Bag of Holding Type IV . . . 6.67 gp per pound
Is that what you meant?
*Edit*
Cost of Teleport Circle: 24,030 gp
With mastodon cost: 28350 gp
Price per pound: 9.44 gp per pound
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...the main point and the most important was speed. Speed wins in shipping all else being equal. And the prices you quote are very nearly equal.
True, but only if speed is needed. In huge bulk shipping of non-perishable goods you can easily stock up the goods to meet demand with few slow shipments. Fast and frequent huge bulk shipments can hurt your supply and demand. If you are doing only one or two shipments in a long period of time to make sure you don't hurt supply, sailing ships are better in this case. You make more money and don't have to worry about it taking a long time to reach market in this case.
Where teleport can be a huge advantage is in doing one bulk shipment of many different goods and items from one central location to another central location. Like a mail carrier moving a giant shipment of packages and letters from one hub to another. In this case we aren't worrying about ruining supply and demand, and the fast transportation is actually needed. This wouldn't work well if you tried to deliver each and every package or bundle of goods to their final destination with teleport. Doing that would be far too expensive. Instead you have a few hubs that have other transport methods attached to them, like horses or stage coaches.
For example, you have one hub in Absalom, one in Katapesh, and one Oppara. Each week your minions gather everything that needs to be shipped to those hubs. Just about every day a shipment is teleported from one hub to another. That teleported shipment is then broken up and delivered by horse or stagecoach.
This is not only profitable, but sustainable.
So my conclusion is this:
Ships are much better for buying a good at Point A and selling it at Point B, moving that single good in one huge bulk shipments.
Teleporting is much better used a middleman, moving goods from one hub to another in huge bulk shipments consisting of multiple goods. Those goods would then be distributed through another system.