Do I NEED to know the spell to CRAFT this wondoroues item, or I may just to take +5 to DC of spellcraft check?
Or this thing works like a scroll or wand?
Does standart price of crafting include this source?
As Chevalier83 said, it is a Wondrous Item so you can overcome the required spells by adding 5 to the craft DC.
If you wanted someone to cast it for you, and they were not a willing ally ready to cast it for free, then you would have to pay above and beyond the normal crafting cost for it for each day it takes to craft the item. So, no, it is not included in the standard crafting cost.
Yep. You totally do not need the spell, though the check is easier if you do (and the page, worthless).
Thanks, but i don't understand...
Do i NEED to cast a spell if i want to OVERCOME the required spell (+5 DC)?
No. Just add +5 to the DC (for DC 27).
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Yep. You totally do not need the spell, though the check is easier if you do (and the page, worthless).
You could be planning to swap that spell out next even numbered level. If you have a crappy spellcraft modifier, it might be worth crafting the easier page now and waiting for a session or two to get any use out of it.
Good point.
Is it possible to create a metemagic version of a page? If so, would it bypass the full round casting issue sorcerers have due to the face that the spell is more or less already "prepared" in its metemagic version?
Here's how I was thinking...
Let's say we start with a magic missile. Apply to it the Maximize feat, bumping it to a 4th level spell.
Now you have a max magic missile as a 4th level page for 16000gp using 4th level spell slots. It's already augmented with a metemagic ability essentially "prepared" as such, so as a sorcerer you aren't applying the feat on the fly.
On the down side, the spell no longer "floats", it is fixed at its metemagic level. If you don't have the spell otherwise, it ONLY exists as a 4th level spell. Also, the metemagic is only applicable to this spell.
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I don'tthink you can apply metamagic to the page.
This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell
It is just the knowledge of the spell.
A spell with metamaguc is still a spell.
A spell with metamaguc is still a spell.
"Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot." A sorcerer must apply metamagic on the spot meaning that even is you could put a spell with a metamagic in a page, you couldn't cast it.
It doesn't say "base spell," however.
@graystone: that's known spells, not a magical item.
This is another one of those ambiguous rules that isn't really a rule, just someone's interpretation of a rule offered as fact. The debate could easily continue forever save for rule 0.
It doesn't say "base spell," however.
@graystone: that's known spells, not a magical item.
Doesn't matter. 1# They MUST apply metamgic at the time of casting and #2 the item in question adds the spell to SPELLS KNOWN. So it's impossible to say known spells don't matter: it doesn't matter HOW the spell gets known, they still don't have the option to know it with a metamagic attached.
Wizards do not have metamagic'd spells in their spellbook. A sorcerer cannot have a metamagic'd spell known. A page of spell knowledge is giving a spell known. In their base form spells do not have metamagic attached to them.
Yeah, no metamagic pages of spell knowledge.
However, a unique spell that loosely resembles a metamagic spell might work with a lenient GM. Even if you find a GM that would allow that, it is the height of cheese.
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Combine it with spell research.
You can totally do that, with GM permission, but then its not a metamagic'd spell known. It is a brand new spell known with its own set parameters with no metamagics attached to it.
Combine it with spell research.You can totally do that, with GM permission, but then its not a metamagic'd spell known. It is a brand new spell known with its own set parameters with no metamagics attached to it.
That's what I said! :D
Why can you have a metamagic wand, scroll or potion, but not a Page?
Even a Ring of Spellstoring can hold a metamagic version of a spell.
the page is the basic spell, in its unaltered form, so not metamagic on it.
Why can you have a metamagic wand, scroll or potion, but not a Page?
Even a Ring of Spellstoring can hold a metamagic version of a spell.
A wand, scroll, potion, and ring of spell storing all hold an individual spell (50 charges of an individual spell for wand) that was "cast into" them to be used and expended. They are consumables where you pour spell energy into them and then expend them and they become useless.
A page (and ring) of spell knowledge contain the knowledge on how to manipulate magic to manifest into a specific spell. It doesn't have the energy of the spell but the knowledge of how to access it. Adding a metamagic to it (like still spell for example) would constitute a completely different spell that is nearly identical to the base spell but minus the S component. But in this regard it then becomes a crafted spell using spell research, and probably needs GM approval.
TLDR: Consumables contain the energies of a spell, thus being modifiable via metamagic, waiting to be released. The page of spell knowledge has the information upon which a person can use to access the spell, thus unmodified.
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Why can you have a metamagic wand, scroll or potion, but not a Page?
Even a Ring of Spellstoring can hold a metamagic version of a spell.
Again, even if you could put a metamagic'd spell in a page, NO sorcerer could use it as known spells can't have metamagic's attached: Sorcerer's are forced to add metamagics at casting.
Nothing in wands, scrolls or potions prohibit metamagics from being added at creation: That's the difference.
"Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot." :They CAN'T prepare "the spell in a metamagic form in advance" so they are forced to "apply the metamagic feat on the spot."
A page with metamagic would be allow the spell to be "prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance" and that's not allowed.
Do I NEED to know the spell to CRAFT this wondoroues item, or I may just to take +5 to DC of spellcraft check?
Or this thing works like a scroll or wand?
Only "bottled spell" effects require the spell to be cast during creation (though it does not need to be the crafter that provides the spell). Scrolls, Potions, and Wands (as well as any other Spell-Completion or Spell-Trigger items) are called out for this requirement. Pages of Spell Knowledge are slotless Wondrous Items, thus they don't require the spells to be cast during creation. Instead, you apply a +5 to the Craft DC, since the spell on the Page is the requirement you don't meet.
To make this clear: you do not need to provide any requirements for crafting an item other than the crafting feat, as long as the item is not considered spell-completion, spell-trigger, or a potion. For each requirement you do not meet, you add +5 to the DC of the Craft check. Most casters, if fully invested in Spellcraft, can succeed on most crafting checks by simply taking 10. If you're very concerned, use the Sage wildblooded archetype to have an excuse to boost your Intelligence and get a bonus to the Spellcraft check.
On a Meta level, it would be extremely odd to create a Page of Spell Knowledge for a spell you've never known existed. RAW, you can make it. Doesn't matter how or why, you just can. RAI/Rules-As-I-Judge-Them, you'd either need to see the spell and identify it with a Spellcraft check, or have seen the spell written somewhere (in a spellbook, on a scroll, etc.). You could also have someone tell you about the spell, or you could maybe make a Knowledge (arcana) check to know what kinds of magic exist.