| strayshift |
In terms of game-play I prefer the Sorcerer's advantage in meta-magics and spam casting.
Yes, the Wizard MAY have access to that obscure spell IF they know in advance they will need it, but in my experience that's a pretty big IF.
The spell level advantage at odd-numbered levels up between 3 and 17 is an advantage for the Wizard however the Sorcerer has more spells available to cast and so a Sorcerer who chooses their spells well will often still be contributing in an adventure when the Wizard is conserving/out of spells.
Horses for courses but I know which I prefer.
| Dr Grecko |
Disregard my previous statements about 15 spells per hour for 24 hours and such.. I was using your 361 number not realizing you were taking spell level * spells per day to come up with your number.
Still, my point stands.. the wizard is better in practice, while the sorc looks good on paper.
I think your "power points" under-value top level spells. When 1 spell of a higher level can make up for 5 of a level lower. Having that spell faster makes all the difference. Like I said.. nearly every odd level, the sorc is behind the wiz in top level power.
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
The wizard 'always' looks good if he gets to prepare the perfect spells.
The times he does NOT have the perfect spell tend to get glossed over.
The sorcerer's strength is that, if well built, he always has something to do.
There are feats and magic items that let Sorcerors basically 'prepare spells'. Human favored class bonus can let a Sorc have more 'different' spells per day then a wizard. A sorcerer never, ever needs to worry that they didn't prepare two of the same spell per day.
The wizards main advantage is the early level, and that's pretty much it. One level later, the sorc starts showing him up again. At higher levels, with an assortment of cheap goodies "AND A SPELLBOOK", the sorc can do the versatility thing waaaaaay better then a wizard can.
"Communal Resist Energy? One sec, let me swap into my ring here from my spellbook, only takes a round...there we go! Now, you wanted that to Fire, Lightning and Acid, right?" asks the Sorcerer.
(Wizard rolls his eyes and mumbles under his breath)
"hey, man, I know you got that amulet that lets you swap out spells into a specific school, but, like, you're on Conjuration today, right? Go get 'em with the Lantern ARchons and stuff, I'll be right there with ya!"
Dopey smile. Wizard grumbles more.
===Aelryinth
| andreww |
The wizard 'always' looks good if he gets to prepare the perfect spells.
The times he does NOT have the perfect spell tend to get glossed over.
I see this trotted out a lot and I am less than convinced it is really true. It is quite possible to prepare a spell list full of generically useful spells which are going to be applicable in a wide range of situations. Lets have a look at an example. Our example wizard is level 5, he took an 18 Int at character creation, adding a racial bonus, a level up and has a +2 headband, so pretty bog standard. He is a teleportation sub school character because he hates the idea of being grappled. He has the following spells pepared:
4|6/5/3
Level 0: Detect Magic, Light, Prestidigigtation, Daze
Level 1: Grease x2, Silent Image, Mage Armour, Colour Spray, open
Level 2: Create Pit, Glitterdust x2, Web, open
Level 3: Haste, Summon Monster III, open
He carries some scrolls of useful spells which dont care much about caster level like Shield, Protection from X, Obscuring Mist, Compreheand Languages, Detect X, Mirror Image, etc. He doesnt need to prepare many defensive spells as his class abilities let him remain out of harms way.
Now have a look at his available options. His offensive spells are generically useful, Grease, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Web, all work on pretty much anything he is likely to encounter at this level. Some things will ignore some of them, flyers ignore Create Pit for example, but little if anything will be able to ignore everything he has available. Utility stuff is easily covered by having a range of scrolls which he can cheaply make himself and he has a slot open at each level for genuine emergencies which cannot wait until the next day.
Now certainly he would do better if he had good intelligence about what he was looking at. If the group plans an expedition into some haunted graveyard you would expect him to grab Control Undead instead of say Web but even if he didnt know that was where they would end up he still operates with a lot of effectiveness because his spells work on pretty much anything.
| Anzyr |
andreww wrote:Nowadays with the existence of Paragon Surge giving everyone spontaneous access to all spellsDid I miss some discussion elsewhere on the forums? Paragon surge says it only works on you if you are a half-elf.
PRD wrote:Range personal (half-elf only)
You didn't miss anything. It just means that everyone is now a half-elf. Or a Human with Racial Heritage. Or a Scion of Humanity Aasimar with Racial Heritage.
Well... everyone who who wants spontaneous access to all spells anyway (ie. everyone).
| KestrelZ |
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In my experience, it all boils down to difference in utility.
A wizard can change up their entire spellcasting potential to cover a specific situation. This works well when you have different spell lists for - travel, urban life, combat, or when you have knowledge of a situation that will occur. If you know you will assault a castle filled with undead, a wizard can prepare all their spells to focus on combating undead.
A sorcerer is stuck with their spell choice, yet has far more energy to cast the same spells over and over again. A well built sorcerer chooses spells on the basis of - will I cast this spell every day? In more than one situation?
A sorcerer is just as likely as a wizard to have a fly spell ready. When the party has to leap the canyon to escape, the sorcerer becomes crazy awesome as the sorcerer can likely cast a fly spell on each member of the party - the wizard is unlikely to have fly ready more than once or twice.
Apples / oranges. Both are awesome, yet they are different.
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Aelryinth wrote:The wizard 'always' looks good if he gets to prepare the perfect spells.
The times he does NOT have the perfect spell tend to get glossed over.
I see this trotted out a lot and I am less than convinced it is really true. It is quite possible to prepare a spell list full of generically useful spells which are going to be applicable in a wide range of situations. Lets have a look at an example. Our example wizard is level 5, he took an 18 Int at character creation, adding a racial bonus, a level up and has a +2 headband, so pretty bog standard. He is a teleportation sub school character because he hates the idea of being grappled. He has the following spells pepared:
4|6/5/3
Level 0: Detect Magic, Light, Prestidigigtation, Daze
Level 1: Grease x2, Silent Image, Mage Armour, Colour Spray, open
Level 2: Create Pit, Glitterdust x2, Web, open
Level 3: Haste, Summon Monster III, openHe carries some scrolls of useful spells which dont care much about caster level like Shield, Protection from X, Obscuring Mist, Compreheand Languages, Detect X, Mirror Image, etc. He doesnt need to prepare many defensive spells as his class abilities let him remain out of harms way.
Now have a look at his available options. His offensive spells are generically useful, Grease, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Web, all work on pretty much anything he is likely to encounter at this level. Some things will ignore some of them, flyers ignore Create Pit for example, but little if anything will be able to ignore everything he has available. Utility stuff is easily covered by having a range of scrolls which he can cheaply make himself and he has a slot open at each level for genuine emergencies which cannot wait until the next day.
Now certainly he would do better if he had good intelligence about what he was looking at. If the group plans an expedition into some haunted graveyard you would expect him to grab Control Undead instead of say Web but even if he didnt know that was where they...
I will note that the Conjuration school is ALWAYS the go to school for counter arguments, just as an aside...
But, you now realize that you have less spells known at any one time then a sorcerer of equal level, because you had to double up on some?
You didn't name your opposition school (although I'm sure you picked evocation), and spells in that one cost double, which eats up your specialization slot bonus, which means you're no more versatile then a normal wizard. You really don't have anything to deal with swarms, for instance.
As soon as your argument dropped to scrolls, it became irrelevant, because Sorcerers can tote around scrolls, too.
If they have the Ring that lets them train a spell as a spell known, they can swap in a new spell in ONE ROUND, as opposed to ten minutes, don't have to leave a slot open (it's a bonus spell), and, of course, can cast it multiple times.
===
As for Paragon Surge, the people using it are relying on the interpretation that they can use the bonus feat to pick a different Spell Known of the moment with Bonus Spell. DM's, on the other hand, interpret it as grabbing the exact same spell every time, not your 'pick of the moment', which completely crushes its game-breaking utility.
==Aelryinth
| andreww |
I am not making a Sorcerer versus Wizard argument, I am saying that the idea that Wizards will be screwed because they prepared the wrong spell list is a myth.
Also Expanded Arcana is a feat which be taken multiple times. Insisting you always get the same spell is a nonsense. If you dont like the spell just ban it, dont try some ridiculous twisting way to nerf it.
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
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And each time you take it, it applies to a new spell. Since Paragon Surge only allows you to take it once...you don't get a new spell. Now, if he actually took the feat and gained that spell permanently, I'd allow Paragon Surge to change to a different spell...and that spell only.
But letting him change the spell every time from the same feat. Nuh-uh. I consider that exactly analogous to popping up a Headband of Int on and off and changing the skill it applies to each time.
==Aelryinth
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
You're assuming I equate the feats equally. I'm perfectly capable of discriminating between a feat that gives you a +1 TH bonus on a material object you are already proficient with, and a feat that creates knowledge out of nowhere of anything up to a 9th level spell which you can cast repeatedly for the duration of the spell.
Or, in other words, I call it the Expanded Arcana feat, not the Expanded Arcana (fireball) feat.
Feats are not created equal, and must be judged on such merits. Expanded Arcana is VERY powerful. The mere fact you can take it at low level, then swap it out for a better spell at higher level makes it even more abusable. You can't swap out Weapon focus (dagger) for Mythic Weapon Focus (dagger), after all.
==Aelryinth
| Dr Grecko |
At higher levels, with an assortment of cheap goodies "AND A SPELLBOOK", the sorc can do the versatility thing waaaaaay better then a wizard can.
Exactly! You will get no argument from me here. And, it's essential to my point.
This is why I continually say, that a sorc looks good on paper, but a wizard performs better in practice.
Actually PLAYING the two throughout from 1 to 20 generally has the wizard come out on top in both utility and power... Until those higher levels.
When looking in a vacuum at the top levels where the sorc has access to the things you mentioned here, of course he has an advantage. I will always maintain that a 20th level Sorc is more powerful and versatile than a 20th level Wizard. But the difference is negligible when unleashing that kind of power anyway. At that level, it's more about who goes first than who has more spells, because it's over so quickly.
Now, back to my point.. As you are leveling, and don't have access to the things you mention, the Wizard significantly out-performs the sorc at every odd level, while tying the sorc in the evens.
But really, how many AP's or PFS games make it to those super high levels? Not many i'm afraid.
| Dr Grecko |
You're assuming I equate the feats equally. I'm perfectly capable of discriminating between a feat that gives you a +1 TH bonus on a material object you are already proficient with, and a feat that creates knowledge out of nowhere of anything up to a 9th level spell which you can cast repeatedly for the duration of the spell.
Or, in other words, I call it the Expanded Arcana feat, not the Expanded Arcana (fireball) feat.
Feats are not created equal, and must be judged on such merits. Expanded Arcana is VERY powerful. The mere fact you can take it at low level, then swap it out for a better spell at higher level makes it even more abusable. You can't swap out Weapon focus (dagger) for Mythic Weapon Focus (dagger), after all.
==Aelryinth
No reputable GM would allow the Paragon Surge abuse. Or Blood Money.. or numerous other ridiculousness that developers didn't realize would be abused in such a manner.
It's perfectly reasonable for a GM to say, "You picked Expanded Arcana for fireball) until you actually choose that feat, you cannot switch out the spell you already attached it too."
| The Shaman |
Has anyone tried giving spontaneous casters access to higher spell levels on the same levels as prepared casters? This seems to be the major difference between the two, and I´m not sure sorcerers and bards need to wait for the same level for lvl 2 spells.
The rest more or less evens itself out imo, leaving it a matter of what playstyle you prefer. Wizards have somewhat better support when it comes to gear, but new items can be invented as needed.
| andreww |
No reputable GM would allow the Paragon Surge abuse. Or Blood Money.. or numerous other ridiculousness that developers didn't realize would be abused in such a manner.
It's perfectly reasonable for a GM to say, "You picked Expanded Arcana for fireball) until you actually choose that feat, you cannot switch out the spell you already attached it too."
You realise that Expanded Arcana can explicitly be taken multiple times and that limiting it in that way makes no sense at all within the rules. Certainly you can houserule it and you should, Paragon Surge is the very definition of broken, at least at level 10+ but lets not try and pretend it is anything other than a houserule.
As far as Blood Money is concerned its entire purpose is to provide free material components. I am struggling to see how using it for that purpose is anything other than exactly what the designer intended it for. Sure they might not have thought "what happens if the caster boosts their strength with items or by magic jarring into a giant" but free spells is pretty much the only reason why it exists.
Also the "gm will fix it" option doesn't really address the issue of PFS which is expected to be run according to the rules.
| andreww |
Has anyone tried giving spontaneous casters access to higher spell levels on the same levels as prepared casters? This seems to be the major difference between the two, and I´m not sure sorcerers and bards need to wait for the same level for lvl 2 spells.
This is pretty much the most commonly suggested houserule for sorcerers and has been since they debued in 3.0 back in 2000.
| K177Y C47 |
Aelryinth wrote:You're assuming I equate the feats equally. I'm perfectly capable of discriminating between a feat that gives you a +1 TH bonus on a material object you are already proficient with, and a feat that creates knowledge out of nowhere of anything up to a 9th level spell which you can cast repeatedly for the duration of the spell.
Or, in other words, I call it the Expanded Arcana feat, not the Expanded Arcana (fireball) feat.
Feats are not created equal, and must be judged on such merits. Expanded Arcana is VERY powerful. The mere fact you can take it at low level, then swap it out for a better spell at higher level makes it even more abusable. You can't swap out Weapon focus (dagger) for Mythic Weapon Focus (dagger), after all.
==Aelryinth
No reputable GM would allow the Paragon Surge abuse. Or Blood Money.. or numerous other ridiculousness that developers didn't realize would be abused in such a manner.
It's perfectly reasonable for a GM to say, "You picked Expanded Arcana for fireball) until you actually choose that feat, you cannot switch out the spell you already attached it too."
That is stupid... If you could only take Expanded Arcana once then maybe, but the feat can be taken multiple times, therefore your argument falls apart. That is exactly the same as saying someone can use PS to get WF(Greatsword) but now can't use it to get WF(Scimitar) later when he gets a scimitar.
This is a simple house-rule. By RAW, you are doing it wrong. And at a PFS game, you would be wrong.
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Actually, it's saying you could take Weapon Focus (Scimitar), but can't take Weapon focus (+5 scimitar) and get a +5 benefit out of it.
That's the difference in our view points. If you want to take the feat multiple times, go ahead...each time, it attaches to a new spell, and that spell is fixed.
You know, just like Weapon focus. YOur equating Expanded Arcana = Weapon Focus is not true. Expanded Arcana = Weapon Focus (dagger) IS true. ANd just as Weapon focus for a dagger doesn't abruptly give the benefits to a javelin, Expanded Arcana letting you know a fireball isn't going to abruptly upgrade to Wish.
Also note, by a Strict REading of Paragon Surge, it does NOT allow you to pick a 'new' Bonus Feat each time you cast it. That feat should probably be the exact same feat every single time you cast it...unless you already have the feat, of course!
===
Blood Money is extremely abusable by those people who use it to bypass all costs by level with temporary conditions that are easily healed away. For instance, creating simulacarums without having to pay for them, or buffing Str to 51 so you can cast Wish without paying 25k gp each time.
Costs are an inherent control factor, and much too important to be done away with via a simple Feat.
==Aelryinth
| Dr Grecko |
Dr Grecko wrote:No reputable GM would allow the Paragon Surge abuse. Or Blood Money.. or numerous other ridiculousness that developers didn't realize would be abused in such a manner.
It's perfectly reasonable for a GM to say, "You picked Expanded Arcana for fireball) until you actually choose that feat, you cannot switch out the spell you already attached it too."
You realise that Expanded Arcana can explicitly be taken multiple times and that limiting it in that way makes no sense at all within the rules. Certainly you can houserule it and you should, Paragon Surge is the very definition of broken, at least at level 10+ but lets not try and pretend it is anything other than a houserule.
As far as Blood Money is concerned its entire purpose is to provide free material components. I am struggling to see how using it for that purpose is anything other than exactly what the designer intended it for. Sure they might not have thought "what happens if the caster boosts their strength with items or by magic jarring into a giant" but free spells is pretty much the only reason why it exists.
Also the "gm will fix it" option doesn't really address the issue of PFS which is expected to be run according to the rules.
I never said these weren't house-rules. Just that any GM worth his salt would stop the abuse in its tracks, which implies house-rules.. Of course, if you like that kind of a game, then by all means keep it in there.
Me, I house-rule that once you use Expanded Arcana for a spell, that feat is locked to that spell. Then if you ACTUALLY take the feat, you get that spell on your list, which frees up paragon surge to allow you to select Expanded Arcana again for a NEW spell. But of course, that new one is locked again. Multiple castings of paragon surge lock your future selections of Expanded Arcana depending on how many times you cast it before duration runs out.
I do this so shenanigans like Paragon Surge abuse don't happen. But, I feel no need to ban the spell explicitly... Just the abuse.
For Blood Money, I don't believe it was ever realized that people would find a way to boost str scores to ridiculous levels, basically making the most expensive spells absolutely free of charge... Thus I ban that spell.. I suppose, just capping the value would be fine. But I just ban it completely
You're right that it doesn't solve the PFS issue.. Which I don't play. Those GM's will just have to accept the munckiness.. Or not play with those kind of people.
That is stupid...
No, it's a reasonable house-rule.
| K177Y C47 |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, it's saying you could take Weapon Focus (Scimitar), but can't take Weapon focus (+5 scimitar) and get a +5 benefit out of it.
That's the difference in our view points. If you want to take the feat multiple times, go ahead...each time, it attaches to a new spell, and that spell is fixed.
You know, just like Weapon focus. YOur equating Expanded Arcana = Weapon Focus is not true. Expanded Arcana = Weapon Focus (dagger) IS true. ANd just as Weapon focus for a dagger doesn't abruptly give the benefits to a javelin, Expanded Arcana letting you know a fireball isn't going to abruptly upgrade to Wish.
Also note, by a Strict REading of Paragon Surge, it does NOT allow you to pick a 'new' Bonus Feat each time you cast it. That feat should probably be the exact same feat every single time you cast it...unless you already have the feat, of course!
===
Blood Money is extremely abusable by those people who use it to bypass all costs by level with temporary conditions that are easily healed away. For instance, creating simulacarums without having to pay for them, or buffing Str to 51 so you can cast Wish without paying 25k gp each time.Costs are an inherent control factor, and much too important to be done away with via a simple Feat.
==Aelryinth
Except you are wrong.
Expanded Arcana is just like taking Extra Hex, or Extra Revelation, or any other similiar feat. Oh, and your reading of Paragon Surge is incorrect as well. Here:
You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear. For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.
You choose a feat when you cast the spell. The spell has NO clause saying that the feat is treated the same every time you pick it. When you pick (assuming your prior Paragon Surge has worn off), yoru new Paragon Surge is a strictly new effect that is independent of any prior events. Therefore, everytime you cast PS: Expanded Arcana, it is treated as a whole new feat and therefore, you select a new spell every time.
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
There is also no clause saying there is a 'new' feat chosen 'each' time you cast the spell, is there?
More to the point, when you are given the choice of a new target/effect, 90% of the time the rules mention that you can do so.
I said a 'strict' reading, where no 'new' language is present.
And yes, I'd treat Extra Hex and Extra Revelation the same way. What made you think I would only pick on Expanded Arcana? Expanding the tier of your argument isn't going to change the logic behind the ruling.
Buy, hey, YMMV. It's quite abusable if you let vague language go unchecked. If you just rule it is set
And again, you're trying to make a distinction between a feat, and the target of that feat. I appreciate that you're adhering to an interpretation of the rules at the cost of balance, but again, it's an interpretation.
==Aelryinth
| Anzyr |
Except nothing in the wording suggests you are forced to pick the same one. You get to pick which feat you take even if that feat is Expanded Arcana (X) instead of Expanded Arcana (Y). So the rules allow me to be treated as though I possessed Expanded Arcana (X). It's really really straightforward. It's not "adhering to an interpretation of the rules at the cost of balance", it's simply reading the rules that are written and applying them.
LazarX
|
Has anyone tried giving spontaneous casters access to higher spell levels on the same levels as prepared casters? This seems to be the major difference between the two, and I´m not sure sorcerers and bards need to wait for the same level for lvl 2 spells.
ONLY about every other sorcerer/wizard thread. The only thing more common is Paladin Fall, I mean Alignment threads.
Sorcerers and bards are fine the way they are. Bard have the progression they should have for being semi-casters. Sorcerers have their offset progression that balances their casting flexibility. They don't need a boost.
| Anzyr |
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The hole in that is that you can only take a feat once. If you take Expanded Arcana (X) normally, you can never take Expanded Arcan (Y).
You guys are parsing an intent for a feature that the writers of this spell never thought to cover.
As Scavion has pointed out... your argument is fatally flawed. Did the Designers intend for Paragon Surge -> Expanded Arcana to be as strong as it is... probably not. Did they intend for Paragon Surge to give a feat of your choice... absolutely. The intent is straightforward and the mere fact that leads to something the writers did not consider is extremely irrelevant, since they presumably considered the power level of a flexible feat, even if not that specific combination.
| Anzyr |
Eldritch Heritage Arcane also works, because there's literally 0 language suggesting that when you are treated as having a feat you are "locked" in. Its kind of something some posters here have made up, because they feel the interaction with Paragon Surge is to strong.
As to what I'm going to do about it now that it is here... absolutely nothing, why should I?
thaX
|
To me, the flexibility that the Sorcerer has isn't something that goes with the overall rule set that was begun with the Wizard in mind. I believe that the Sorcerer was way underdeveloped in 3.0 simply because of the mechanical workings that is far superior to the Forever Forgetful Wizarrd.
I know, it is much more fleshed out now, in 3.5 with the Kobold sudden change from yipping dogs to Sorcerers who are reptilians that worship dragons, to PF with the Bloodlines that mirror that extension.
It was, as I have said before, a half class that should have been a part of the Wizard instead of a separate entity. Wizards should prepare "known" spells and cast according to how many slots they have, having the option to double up or combine lower level slots for higher spells (Possibly a feat). Every spell casting class should have Spontanious Casting as a framework. I have said this from day one.
| swoosh |
What it boils down to is that wizards tend to be more versatile (because big book of spells and free crafting feats) and sorcerers tend to be better specialists (because bloodlines and more spells per say). Until you get into cheesy paragon surge stuff at least.
In the end you're essentially arguing which nuclear missile is going to level a city better, they're both going to leave nothing but ashes and dust either way.
Either way you're gonna be one of the most bullshit classes in the game, so it's not that important who's better at ruining things.
Most importantly the sorcerer should just be a wizard archetype.
| FuelDrop |
Going to throw this in: Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation and their higher powered forms are REALLY good for Sorcerers, as that one spell known covers practically an entire school's worth of spells. Best for shadow Sorcerers, naturally.
Sorcerers outclass Wizards at having a single role and focusing on it. That narrow focus (EG: Blasting stuff, SoD/SoS, ect) plus some common utility spells to round them out generally means that the sorcerer will be unmatched in that area.
Wizards outclass Sorcerers at general purpose. If a Wizard and Sorcerer both build to be weapons platforms the Sorcerer is going to be better, but if the two both try to cover as many bases as possible then the wizard will be superior.
Granted, your average sorcerer is going to have some spells outside of their focus area as otherwise they become as much of a one trick pony as the fighter, but most of their spells and feats are going to be focused on doing one thing really really well. Wizards aren't as good at that, but their flexibility makes up for it.
| The Indescribable |
Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote:Wizards better slaves. Take away spellbooks. Send to mines.They're lousy slaves, they're weak physically, don't get much work done, and are smart enough to organize rebellions behind your back.
Or get that hellhole running so efficiently that all the physical labor is done by a single Australian man
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Actually, once the Sorcerers have the appropriate magic items, they do versatility better then the wizard.
A human sorc will know more spells on the need of the instant, and can spam them.
With the ring, he can pick up a spellbook and add/change a spell in ONE ROUND.
With the feat, he can prepare spells in slots, including meta'd spells, just like a wizard.
The wizard can take feats to gain a limited ability to spam a favored spell, but can't match the sheer breadth of Instant Spells Known and being able to Spam them.
What he's got going for him is 1 level Early and More Feats, and that's about it.
==Aelryinth
LazarX
|
The Shaman wrote:This is pretty much the most commonly suggested houserule for sorcerers and has been since they debued in 3.0 back in 2000.Has anyone tried giving spontaneous casters access to higher spell levels on the same levels as prepared casters? This seems to be the major difference between the two, and I´m not sure sorcerers and bards need to wait for the same level for lvl 2 spells.
This comes up on just about every sorcerer thread. I do not see the need to give this boost to the class. And I've played both types about equally.
| Atarlost |
A wizard at any odd level other than 1 or 19 knows at least 2 spells of his highest level. If he's a specialist or has a bonus spell from int he can prepare both if he wants. A sorcerer knows zero spells of that level.
A wizard at any even level knows at least 4 spells of his highest level. If he's a specialist or has bonus slots he can prepare any 3. If he's a specialist with a bonus slot from high int he can prepare all 4 if he chooses. A sorcerer has one spell known. Feel that spontaneity.
A sorcerer can get pages of spell knowledge. They cost more than sixty times as much as a wizard would typically spend buying the spell from another wizard and scribing it or forty times as much as a scroll would cost.
Looked at another way, considering that pages of spell knowledge are not useful to the person who crafts them while pearls of power are a non-blasting wizard who isn't banned from crafting feats can have a flexible extra spell slot for the same price that a sorcerer can have a known spell. If the sorcerer is buying an appreciable number of utility spells as pages the wizard can have more casting endurance.
Then there's metamagic. If you plan on using metamagic and are competent to play a wizard at all the wizard is better. Sorcerers can do unplanned metamagic, but if you don't have a plan to use metamagic why did you take the feat? If a wizard and sorcerer both take dazing spell with the intention of using it on reflex blasts the wizard prepares his dazing spells and the sorcerer sacrifices his move actions when both made the actual decision to cast dazing fireball (or whatever) when they leveled up and took the dazing spell metamagic feat. There's not much actual flexibility gain from spontaneous metamagic. There's a lot of flexibility gain from move actions. You can do things lie put your friends between you and people who want to shove three feet of sharpened metal through your precious kidneys or line up better shots with rays so you don't take cover penalties on top of firing into melee or direct spells that are directed as a move action or draw pearls of power or metamagic rods from your handy haversack.
For every level between 2 and 19 wizards are either more powerful or more flexible in their highest spell level. Even a cheese-elf doesn't really get around the issue.
thaX
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As I have just said in another thread, the Arcanist is a good start, but it is still limited. He has less known spells than the Sorcerer, less casting per day, and an Arcane Pool that uses Wealth to refresh beyond half (for now) of the total potential. It is merely a good start, not the solution.
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
A wizard at any odd level other than 1 or 19 knows at least 2 spells of his highest level. If he's a specialist or has a bonus spell from int he can prepare both if he wants. A sorcerer knows zero spells of that level.
Which is the wizard's big advantage, he knows his spells a level earlier.
A wizard at any even level knows at least 4 spells of his highest level. If he's a specialist or has bonus slots he can prepare any 3. If he's a specialist with a bonus slot from high int he can prepare all 4 if he chooses. A sorcerer has one spell known. Feel that spontaneity.
And that sorcerer will have a minimum of 4 spell slots to cast their one spell with, with means they can spam it, OR they can use the slot for meta'd spells. If that is level 10 or higher, that's a quickened spell they can get off easily. And remember that specialist is going to be lacking spells from 2 other schools, which doesn't restrict the sorc.
The ability to Extend, Empower, Daze, and Quicken spells on the fly when needed is an option a wizard has to resort to expensive rods to duplicate.And there is a feat that lets a sorc prep a spell in his Spell slot, which means he can have ALL those slots at level 10 filled with 4 different spells, if he's of a mind to. Technically, he could do FIVE spells, but wouldn't be able to cast his core spell!!!
Beat that, wizard. cause over the next four levels, the sorc is going to add 4 more spells known, + 2 more possible from being Human, AND have more spell slots open up to stuff more prepared spells in!!!
A sorcerer can get pages of spell knowledge. They cost more than sixty times as much as a wizard would typically spend buying the spell from another wizard and scribing it or forty times as much as a scroll would cost.
This is not an even comparison, because the Sorceror gains the use of that spell ALL THE TIME, not just when memorizing spells in the morning.
A better magic item is the ring that allows a sorc to memorize and add to Spells Known any spell they see cast, on a scroll or spell page with ONE ROUND of work. In short, with 6 seconds, they can spam any needed lesser spell on demand.
Looked at another way, considering that pages of spell knowledge are not useful to the person who crafts them while pearls of power are a non-blasting wizard who isn't banned from crafting feats can have a flexible extra spell slot for the same price that a sorcerer can have a known spell. If the sorcerer is buying an appreciable number of utility spells as pages the wizard can have more casting endurance.
Looked at a 3rd way, there's the feat sorcs can take that lets them prep spells. Or they use the above ring. Then they make the Page of spell knowledge for half price, and move on to permanently acquiring the next spell.
What you end up with is a freaking arsenal of Spells Known all the time that a wizard can't possibly match, + the utility of getting a needed spell on demand that used to be a wizard's schtick.
Then there's metamagic. If you plan on using metamagic and are competent to play a wizard at all the wizard is better. Sorcerers can do unplanned metamagic, but if you don't have a plan to use metamagic why did you take the feat? If a wizard and sorcerer both take dazing spell with the intention of using it on reflex blasts the wizard prepares his dazing spells and the sorcerer sacrifices his move actions when both made the actual decision to cast dazing fireball (or whatever) when they leveled up and took the dazing spell metamagic feat. There's not much actual flexibility gain from spontaneous metamagic. There's a lot of flexibility gain from move actions. You can do things lie put your friends between you and people who want to shove three feet of sharpened metal through your precious kidneys or line up better shots with rays so you don't...
metamagic works better with sorcs and always has, especially once you start talking with Quicken Spell, which removes the only cost the sorc had.
The sorc will have a plan for his metas, just likely not the same as the wizard.Extend Spell is used for longer buffs outside of combat. Can be spammed.
Empower spell can be used for big opening salvoes when you have the time to do so without risk, AND can be repeated several times over the course of the day without a problem.
Quicken Spell only works on level 1's, but can be used every single round, without fail, in your copious spell slots.
Heighten Spell can be used in those special cases where its needed on demand.
For the rest of the time? You use rods, just like the wizard prefers to.
==Aelryinth
| Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
With the feat Spontaneous Versatility, the SOrcerer can, over the course of several days, swap out spell slots and replace them with different spells he wants/needs. Granted, they are memorized ina slot one higher then their base, so he can't put 5th level spells in 5th level slots. However, he can put 4th level slots in them. It takes him longer then a wizard, but he can DO it. Leaving one slot free for his Spell Known, the instant he gains any level he can instantly have 4 new spells ready to go...which is the same amount as a wizard of that level.
Granted, not new spells, but even so, by scattering 2 spells a level through levels 2-9, the sorcerer can add another 18 spells in versatility to his spells carried, and they can be ANYTHING.
The Ring of Spell Knowledge gives him a floating slot he can fill with any Arcane Spell of the same level or less. Yes, the Sorceror can now cast bardic healing magic spells if he's of a mind to. Just needs a scroll of it to study. Other then that, he can whip out his spellbook and in 6 seconds have in place a SPell Known of level 4 or less (at higher levels) basically On Demand.
The Robe of Mnemonic Enhancement lets him burn a spell slot on any spell on his spell list one level lower. That's like having Arcane Bond on 'roids.
Sorcerers have so many ways around wizards monopoly on 'memorize for the occasion' now it's not funny.
The ONLY true thing wizards have is One level Sooner. Everything else is just gravy.
==Aelryinth
| SiuoL |
Can Wizard multi class to dragon disciple while still have most of sorcerer's bloodline power and charge power attack from the sky with 180ft moment and boom on the target and let out a roar like a badass while doing it all day long? Nope! Wizard might have spells, and better at casting them, but will run out of spells. Sorcerer allow more options, more survivability. Allow more rooms to make mistakes and last longer in in combat. Don't get me wrong, the reason why Wizard don't last long in combat is not because they are weak, it's because they are so power they don't need to last long at all. (If you got the right spells.)