What is the point of rogue talents like fast fingers, charmer and the like?
What coudl be their in game justification?
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What is the point of rogue talents like fast fingers, charmer and the like?
What coudl be their in game justification?
Either
1:The rogue doesn't actually know he is doing it, he just think he is lucky
Or
2:The omnipresent, omniscient 'Gods of Balance' viewed it as an ability that would be 'OP' if there was no limit. And all rogues worship the darker, lower end of the 'Gods of Balance'.
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The rogues should suck.
Other than that, the once per day limitation is placed when (for various reasons) you don't want an ability or power to be used frequently, now what is the reason behind SO many of the rogue talents having the once per day restriction? i don't know
What is the point of rogue talents like fast fingers, charmer and the like?
What coudl be their in game justification?
God everyone goes on and on about spells and their per day limits, but when a mundane class gets something similar everyone just complains!
My assumption is when designing them they err on the side of caution. I think cha per day or such would have been a better model.
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Who knows. Probably because of balance. Then again one of the cleric powers from the animal domain is
Speak with Animals (Sp): You can speak with animals, as per the spell, for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your cleric level.
Apprently being able to talk to animals at will is game breaking.
God everyone goes on and on about spells and their per day limits, but when a mundane class gets something similar everyone just complains!What is the point of rogue talents like fast fingers, charmer and the like?
What coudl be their in game justification?
I can understand magic being limited. It's magic. Otoh can you think of a physical or mental ability you can only use 'once per day'?
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I can understand magic being limited. It's magic. Otoh can you think of a physical or mental ability you can only use 'once per day'?
The ability to wake up. It's not limited to daily uses, but I need to rest to regain it.
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I can understand magic being limited. It's magic. Otoh can you think of a physical or mental ability you can only use 'once per day'?The ability to wake up. It's not limited to daily uses, but I need to rest to regain it.
See someone understands!
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I can understand magic being limited. It's magic. Otoh can you think of a physical or mental ability you can only use 'once per day'?The ability to wake up. It's not limited to daily uses, but I need to rest to regain it.
I'm old I do this several times a night.
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So you can perform this "wake up" ability more times per day as you gain experience? Does the ability stack with anything?
As far as the original question goes, I think the 1/day rogue talent restriction is one of the most unnecessary nerfs in Pathfinder. I can only imagine that when Rogue Talents first came out, there were some really good ones in development that would have catapulted the Rogue from 3rd tier to 1st tier (or near it) if you could use them multiple times a day. I'm not sure why these abilities never made it into print. Maybe the designers of the current abilities had thought of clever uses for them that the rest of us haven't?
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So you can perform this "wake up" ability more times per day as you gain experience? Does the ability stack with anything?
Yes grey hair getting up to go to the bathroom and forgetfulness.
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I can understand magic being limited. It's magic. Otoh can you think of a physical or mental ability you can only use 'once per day'?
Sure. This is written mostly for 4e Fighter powers but applies somewhat to PF. Our bodies have their limits and peak performance really does have a limited daily use in real life.
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1) narrative, this is when the spotlight shines on you. When Conan swipes off the giant snake’s head in a single blow, Robert E. Howard was using his PC’s Daily. It’s the PC using his own token of agency to affect his fantasy world.
2) ‘realism’. I don’t really want to use that word for Fantasy Dragon Dungeoning… but crazy athletic feats can get pretty tiring. Hitting a monster 9x harder than you normally can is one of those tiring things.
When arguing with someone and trying to change their mind though, it’s good to have proof, so this thread is about some ‘proof’. I remember reading something about how human muscles use 3 energy sources, the time it needs to recharge for peak performance, etc.
Three systems produce energy in the human body, one aerobic and two anaerobic. They are:
· ATP/CP system - anaerobic.
· Lactic acid (LA) system - anaerobic.
· O2 system - aerobic.
The ATP/CP system.
It is anaerobic because whilst using it, oxygen is not supplied from the air breathed in. Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is a compound necessary for muscular contraction. The compound is stored in the muscles and a very quick contraction, lasting only a fraction of a second uses it all. For an exercise lasting longer than this, another compound called creatine phosphate (CP) is used. CP can provide a muscle with virtually instant energy without the need for oxygen. It is the muscle’s emergency system, but it is stored in only very small amounts and so is depleted very quickly.
In an untrained person ATP/CP is exhausted in about 8 seconds. Through proper training it can be made to last only a few more seconds. Anything requiring short bursts of energy at maximum intensity relies heavily on this system. (like an encounter or daily power)
It takes about three minutes of complete rest to get a fairly full restoration of ATP (so, once per encounter). Proper training to maximize ATP/CP would be short bursts of 15 seconds or less at maximum intensity, with rest periods between short bursts of three minutes or more.
2. The lactic acid system (or the anaerobic lactic system) - LA system.
This system can also supply the muscle with energy in the absence of oxygen. But it uses glycogen and because of the lack of oxygen, lactic acid is formed. Intense activity of a muscle causes this system to operate at a high level until eventually the build up of lactic acid inhibits the muscles action and causes it to slow down. The blood system removes lactic acid to the liver where it is detoxified. During a recovery period the muscle regains its ability to function. The period of time that the muscle can support this type of effort is up to two minutes. An example of an activity of the intensity and duration that this system works under would be a 400 m sprint (or perhaps an Encounter with a dragon)
3. The aerobic system (O2 system).
This system utilizes breathed in oxygen in the muscle and thus interacts with the cardio respiratory system. The presence of oxygen in the muscle allows stored foodstuffs (mainly glycogen but also protein or fat for very long duration exercise) to be transformed into muscle energy by a series of reactions which avoid the production of lactic acid. The O2 process can therefore continue for as long as the energy demands of the muscle are within the capabilities of the oxygen delivery system and the food store. Lactic acid may well have been built up in previous work bouts because the LA system may have been used first. But in this case transferring from the LA system to the O2 system will allow the lactic acid to somewhat dissipate.
This can be used to explain the difference between an At-Will and Encounter power.
So we could say a 100meter dasher is somebody with a movement Encounter/Daily power
a 400meter runner is someone who has an at-will movement enhancing power
a marathon runner has skill training Endurance or some other power that enhances daily travel limits.
As for dailies, well note that even with a 3 minute rest you don’t get absolutely 100% restored, nor is strain removed. Athletes have some pretty intense, lengthy recovery processes after games like massages and ice baths. The body can only take so much strain, and will fail when pushed too far (For example, power lifters have been documented crapping out their intestines when their bodies can’t take the strain of the weights they’re trying to lift). There is also mental fatigue to consider.
*(In something as stressful as combat sports, it’s often months before the fighter’s next match to make sure they’re close to peak performance)
I’m not saying ‘4e is completely super realistic’, but there is some real-world relevance to how it goes about things. If it helps in the immersion of your fantasy dragon murder-looting, then enjoy.
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I don't think pathfinder rogue abilities are good enough to deserve daily limits though and a lot of it is "talky stuff" rather than physical strain. I prefer "encounter/short rest" recharge to dailies anyways.
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In regards to all of the once per day talents, I wouldn't even be mad if they were actually good.
I can understand magic being limited. It's magic. Otoh can you think of a physical or mental ability you can only use 'once per day'?Sure. This is written mostly for 4e Fighter powers but applies somewhat to PF. Our bodies have their limits and peak performance really does have a limited daily use in real life.
----
1) narrative, this is when the spotlight shines on you. When Conan swipes off the giant snake’s head in a single blow, Robert E. Howard was using his PC’s Daily. It’s the PC using his own token of agency to affect his fantasy world.2) ‘realism’. I don’t really want to use that word for Fantasy Dragon Dungeoning… but crazy athletic feats can get pretty tiring. Hitting a monster 9x harder than you normally can is one of those tiring things.
When arguing with someone and trying to change their mind though, it’s good to have proof, so this thread is about some ‘proof’. I remember reading something about how human muscles use 3 energy sources, the time it needs to recharge for peak performance, etc.Three systems produce energy in the human body, one aerobic and two anaerobic. They are:
· ATP/CP system - anaerobic.
· Lactic acid (LA) system - anaerobic.
· O2 system - aerobic.
The ATP/CP system.
It is anaerobic because whilst using it, oxygen is not supplied from the air breathed in. Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is a compound necessary for muscular contraction. The compound is stored in the muscles and a very quick contraction, lasting only a fraction of a second uses it all. For an exercise lasting longer than this, another compound called creatine phosphate (CP) is used. CP can provide a muscle with virtually instant energy without the need for oxygen. It is the muscle’s emergency system, but it is stored in only very small amounts and so is depleted very quickly.
In an untrained person ATP/CP is exhausted in about 8 seconds. Through proper training it can be made to last only a few more seconds. Anything requiring short bursts of...
So using thieves sorry rogues abilities are like deadlifting at olympic levels or running a marathon? Ok then that makes sense.
What is the point of rogue talents like fast fingers, charmer and the like?
What coudl be their in game justification?
A moment of Zen.
"Never tell me the odds."Uncanny luck.
Pure focus.
Being so confident amazing things just sometimes happen.
You are a rogue, it is your job to be good at those things and those talents facilitate that result.
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And in most cases, scant balance.
There's quite a few things in the game that x/day is just way too limiting.
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personally I prefer encounter based abilities like how 4E did or how Tome of Battle did.