Alright, I'm trying to confirm the outcome of my FIRST PC Encounter...where my first player purposefully (not intentionally, but purposefully) encounters enemies with a CR great in excess of his own...and alone. See, he wanted to enter the Ghostwalk game (as per my permission to let him play a ghost monk) as a Ghost. I naturally said I'd want background, and just writing a background doesn't work for this guy, nope, he writes piss poor simple language dyslexia plagued bios that do his real understanding, of what a background should be, no real justice. So, I decided, in addition to working one out with him, we role-play his death. So far I've found as a DM, a background works best when the player and the dm work on the background together and an understanding is reached as to how the player ends up where he ends up- where he WANTS to end up HOW he wants to end up, with WHAT, etc.
Anyway, my primary concern isn't for most of the rules which I knowingly or accidentally butchered as I literally DMed this encounter on the fly. (adding a second Slaughter wight, adding in the Mithral Full Plate of Speed just after he managed to hit above the thence forth 20 AC, anyway. So the cleric went up one AC bonus..). We literally just went along with what made sense at the time (rolling to confirm that it had recently rained with a d6 even/odd roll rained/dry)...when he was running round away, about when Doom was cast, wildly attempted to set fire any of the brush, hoping to do SOMETHING that would stop the rather nimble undead from pursuing him or killing him, I rolled percentile let him pick high or low and let him roll an opposed percentile...(I had to roll lower or higher than his roll depending on what his call, if I rolled higher and he called higher, it was in his favor, like calling heads or tails.) and I rolled that the brush didn't just not catch on fire, but that the moistness and wild manner in which he was batting things with his torch caused the flame to go out. (a good circumstance for an ever-burning torch I'm afraid).
Anyway. The movements in question. 1. he gets approached rapidly by a Slaughter wight from the north...then he realizes there's a threat on his flank in the trees to his left- and a shadowy figure in silvery black armor appears in his torchlight with a gleaming white left eye.... 2. the figure charges him (After failing to cast a spell or too), allowing an attack of opportunity and with his readied action, the monk runs. (he had the higher initiative, and had actually been attempting to use a holy symbol in conjunction with an intimidation check- rather foolishly, but luckily on what I figure to be a rather sentient and semi-intelligent undead (int 11)...basically he rolled just high enough on his intimidation checks that he managed to intimidate the Slaughter wight, sort of. (basically I just had the Wight slow its pace and attempt to contemplate what the monk was trying to do- failing, just barely, it's own charisma based intimidation checks, and I also rolled an opposed charisma check on the part of the evil cleric...and rolled low enough to justify him not really having full control over the Wights, and not having them being commanded for that matter...they were on an evil mission from Orcus himself just about...to thin the numbers of the living south of the spirit wood and to convert as many as undead as possible. And, well they succeeded in helping to kill a follower of Dracanish- the monk.)
Anyway, 3. the monk runs at DOUBLE his speed, due to brush, but the Wight runs at triple, with what I now figured out to be an alternating penalty of only double so he could move silently (they have move silently of +22 and were rolling 17s and 19s and such) and hide to throw off and confuse their prey.
4. after being dumb enough to wildly wave his torch about, beating recently rained upon brush with it, loses the flame on it. (I'll errata this maybe as a state of panic, possibly under the effect of the Doom spell casted about the same time by the cleric- who didn't have to pursue to still cast this spell, but I think would still get a FULL move action after casting this spell if he activated haste on his armor. The monk encounters sounds indicating ANOTHER slaughter wight coming in from the south, followed by heavy, fast moving sounds coming from further to the southwest (if you guys support this, my original idea was to have this be the cleric attempting to flank him and failing his move silently while doing so- if not or if you prefer, I'll stick with my retooling that these were probably two ghouls that really are led by the evil Cleric attempting to corner the wight's prey...) Anyway, after hearing these sounds- but failing his spot checks to the opposed hide checks of the Slaughter Wight (as if it mattered without his torch he had no nightvision, and could barely notice shadowy figures at 15 ft or shadowy figures with some detail at 10 feet...in the moonlight of course.) he turns around, deciding to pursue the foe that ISN'T undead (though I really need to re-emphasize that his monk would have NO idea that he was a cleric unless I let him roll a postmortem Religion check to see if he might realize that a mace wielding evil guy working with undead is PROBABLY a Cleric of Orcus. he only has one rank so I'm tempted to go through the ghostwalk deities section like I did for libris mortis and assign individual dcs for knowledge of certain sections...but he did do well on the libris mortis Orcus entry, and well enough to know something key about Afflux- which will come in handly later)...anyway, I'm delaying the retelling here:
5. He turns around, the Slaughter wight he heard (Because it wasn’'t moving silently before) is actually CLOSER than he thinks, it moves silently at an amazing speed, again let me know exactly how hard it would be to move double your speed and still move silently in a battle situation. (I rolled successes over his listen checks and his spot checks with move silently and hide, though I don't necessarily consider Slaughter Wights to have anything like Hide-in plain sight, in the dark shadowy woods, where they have the advantage of stealth, vision, and strength. I figured they could pull the wool over the eyes of a 1st level monk enough. I'm actually surprised he didn't try an opposed hide check with his Sleeping Tiger Monk (another thing if anyone knows about I'll appreciate input), but I probably wouldn't have allowed it since all three obvious pursuing opponents could easily keep their senses on him, eyes seeing better in the dark than him. Anyway, the 2nd slaughter wight, from the south, attacks him with his slam attack, succeeds, but I allow a reflex save (my idea, not his) after he gets the idea that he can grapple the wight because of the slam attack. (the slam attack hits, but fails to drain a level, and I postpone rolling damage for the purpose of NOT turning him into a damn wight or in this case a Slaughter Wight.) Basically I give him the benefit of the doubt on his grapple check- which he succeeds, surprisingly, but admirably- he might even have rolled a natural twenty which I'm currently having be a 30 +bonuses in this campaign…he rolled a few 20s. Anyway, he succeeds the check and tosses the Slaughter Wight (at a whopping 92 lbs, with his 18 str) over his head onto the Slaughter Wight in front of him, which would have gotten an attack of opportunity if the PC had continued running (I'll modify my blogs to read like this), and did 96 damage to the receiving slaughter wight and 8 damage to the thrown (I believed him when he said it'd be the weight of the thrown subject plus strength modifier and whatever it was for the thrown subject).
This valiant effort, though it put the Slaughter weight past losing half it's hit points (which in my old 2e/1e hybrid would require a system shock test, but then again they are Undead...I'm unsure as to any rule that applies similarly in 3.x)
As a simultaneous, or rather as an action immediately following this grapple/throw (though I really should have rolled initiative a third time since he thought he lost the first wight, when he rolled the second initiative against the 2nd wight...) the Cleric appeared, with his white eye as the last thing the PC saw before a white flash, as he failed his fort save (I mistakenly called this as a will-save, but the roll would have failed as a fort save with even the +1 higher bonus- too, and this was the killing blow that leaves his ghost not so scarred anyway.)
I also decided to roll percentiles to determine what I would call semi-random factors or chance that say, for instance the evil party decides to take his body with them. (at first I rolled this and said no, but then of course I changed my mind immediately since the NPCs’ motivations were clear, if the wights, ghouls and other undead minions don’t kill a subject and turn them into undead, bring them back to “the Master.”) I also glossed over a percentile roll to see if the two ghouls decided to eat at his corpse or not- I thought this might have been too EVIL DM, and certainly not quite the route the evil party would have taken, as chaotic evil as they were, they were under orders from powers stronger then they. (I am going to stick with percentile chances or percentage chances that apply toe the characters running into the same NPC before, during, or after he claims another victim and if they come in time to save this new NPC, save his body, or just in time to see him get drug off.
Anyway, I apologize for the length of this post, but it was my first encounter and I wanted to share it with you guys and get your opinions as to whether or not, for the main point, the Cleric should be able to out manuever the Monk- or simply use his haste ability to move and to cast spells so as to remain about 30ft behind/near the monk, and then double back to wait in the shadows as the monk came running back in pursuit of him.
Slaughter Wight CR: 8 each, Cleric level 6, so the EL would be? I know the rating would be Overpowering if not "Heroic" as my player mentioned...he claimed the CR's add up, but EL is a more variable dependent number and I guess I find it a little confusing- at least in this VERY rare circumstance where I intentionally overpowered the encounter...he might have been able to survive the mere 6th level Cleric if he had faced him head on, and then the standard action to use the cleric's bodak eye graft would never had that chance without the proper distraction...which was "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE THERE'S AGGRESIVE, POWERFUL AND FAST MOVING UNDEAD ON YOUR TAIL!"
(btw, I don't think I figured in the power attack bonus the slaughter wight had used in the slam attack as I allowed the grapple...)
I could have just taken an option similar to how I'll treat wraiths, at least my wraith assasins- not any evolved wraiths, spawn is created only when the ability/energy drain is what kills the pc (example: their constitution is drained to zero so they become a wraith in a few rounds), but I hadn't intended on killing him with one blow, I didn't quite realize that Slaughter wights have ONE attack and can opt to take Power Attack to increase that attack for the very specific purpose of destroying opposistion.
Numbers:
20 ft +30 ft or 20 x2 for haste spell? plus extra attack or action? Could a blindfighting cleric with haste used via the Full Plate of Speed, moving in said full plate at 3 times his base speed in haste (40x3 or 50x3? those ten feet add up with the multipliers and would make the difference between a cleric literally outflanking his prey vs manuevering to keep in visual (30 ft Darkvision as rewarded by MY version of the bodak eye graft) and effective range (for profane lifeleech and the bodak eye graft ability)
Lastly, should the bodak eye graft's fort save DC be Charisma based like the regular bodak, or is the wording used in Libris Mortis specifically limiting for the purpose of buffering the stat into DC 15+ to 20 range?
As you suspected-- wow that was dense. Here are a few questions I managed to pick out-- if you have further questions, maybe ask them clearly (and without the game fiction tied to the questions) below.
CRs do NOT add together. Not even close. In fact, 2 critters of a CR are at a CR = CR of 1 creature +2. (IE: 2 CR 8 critters = CR 10 encounter.) This Calculator is handy for CR calculations. Using the calculator, it says the Encounter Level is 11, which sounds about right.
Make sure the player knows that you were intentionally trying to setup his death-- that during the campaign you'll be using much more reasonable ELs. (If this was your first time GMing, he might worry that you don't understand what you did.)
Haste: Adds 30', but only to a maximum of double their move, so 40x2, 40x3 in a stumbling run. The spell (if you're playing 3.5) is now very clear-- you do NOT get an extra action. If you do a full attack, you get one extra swing, but that's it.
I can't help you with the eye graft, as I don't own Libris Mortis.
Other FYIs:
a) Everburning torches are just a light spell, so they don't go out, never produce heat, etc.
b) Moving silently: You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to move silently while running or charging.
c) This is completely wrong: ...and did 96 damage to the receiving slaughter wight and 8 damage to the thrown(I believed him when he said it'd be the weight of the thrown subject plus strength modifier and whatever it was for the thrown subject). It makes no sense at all. At best, throwing someone is a large improvised object-- you're talking a d6+Str, maybe. (See the equipment chapter of the PHB.)
If what he's saying was the case, tossing a gallon of milk at someone (8 lbs), would kill any commoner, most rogues, rangers, and the like.
It sounds like you leaned on improvisation a lot, which is good practice, but can lead to hideous inconsistancies with the rules. Admit that mistakes were made, that you'll work on improving your skills before the game goes live-- and be happy that you've had your first turn on the other side of the screen. Good luck!
c) This is completely wrong: ...and did 96 damage to the receiving slaughter wight and 8 damage to the thrown(I believed him when he said it'd be the weight of the thrown subject plus strength modifier and whatever it was for the thrown subject). It makes no sense at all. At best, throwing someone is a large improvised object-- you're talking a d6+Str, maybe. (See the equipment chapter of the PHB.)
If what he's saying was the case, tossing a gallon of milk at someone (8 lbs), would kill any commoner, most rogues, rangers, and the like.It...
I agree that the damage is absurdly high, but I would also say that the weight of the object has an effect on the damage. Not to the extent he suggested, but at least a d10+Str mod. I think dragon had an article that discussed this a while back, as part of a "cinematic" action piece.
In regards to the damage from the thown wight, this is covered in the back of the Complete Warrior under improvised weaponry (I unfortunately don't have this book).
Also, the SRD has this to say about improvised weapons:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Also, according to the DMG, falling objects deal 1d6 damage per 200 lbs of weight. You might think, well, 200 lbs of body matter is a heck of a lot more than a shortsword - but a shortsword is sharp, pointy, and doesn't bend or break (if used correctly) when striking your foe.
CRs do NOT add together. Not even close. In fact, 2 critters of a CR are at a CR = CR of 1 creature +2. (IE: 2 CR 8 critters = CR 10 encounter.) This Calculator is handy for CR calculations. Using the calculator, it says the Encounter Level is 11, which sounds about right.
Okay, the EL/ECL/LA/CR thing can be really confusing at first, and delveg is mostly right, BUT:
There are two ways of calculating experience gained from an encounter:
RIGHT: Calculate experience for each monster individually, and add up all the experience.
example: a party of 6th level characters encountering with 2 CR 6 creatures would yield a total of 3,600 experience with this method.
ALSO RIGHT: Use the table on page 49 of the DMG to calculate the EL (encounter level) of the encounter. Then calculate the experience as if the party had encountered a single creature of a CR equal to the EL. (Delveg's method)
example: a party of 6th level characters encountering 2 CR 6 creatures (an EL 8 encounter) would still yield a total of 3,600 experience.
WRONG: Adding the CRs and generating experience as if the party had encountered a single creature of that CR. Not only does this generate entirely too much experience for fights against "flunkies," but it breaks past CR 8, since you shouldn't gain any experience for an creature of a CR 8 or more higher than a character's level. (punkassjoe's friend's method)
example: a party of 6th level characters encountering 2 CR 6 creatures should not gain 14,400 experience for that encounter.
Okay, that's all for now, I'm going to sleep. More later.
TK
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Lastly, should the bodak eye graft's fort save DC be Charisma based like the regular bodak, or is the wording used in Libris Mortis specifically limiting for the purpose of buffering the stat into DC 15+ to 20 range?
Grafts, overall, should be viewed like magic items. The item description specifically says that the Fort DC is 15 for the Bodak Eye Graft. This should never be able to be modified by the person it has been grafted to -- just like a character couldn't "improve" the magic sword they just got without specific requirements. It could be argued that the person/creature who applied the graft to the creature may have "created" the graft to have a higher DC, but the rules don't really account for this and the "value" of the item should reflect this as well.
Hope this helps with this question...
Lastly, should the bodak eye graft's fort save DC be Charisma based like the regular bodak, or is the wording used in Libris Mortis specifically limiting for the purpose of buffering the stat into DC 15+ to 20 range?
Grafts, overall, should be viewed like magic items. The item description specifically says that the Fort DC is 15 for the Bodak Eye Graft. This should never be able to be modified by the person it has been grafted to -- just like a character couldn't "improve" the magic sword they just got without specific requirements. It could be argued that the person/creature who applied the graft to the creature may have "created" the graft to have a higher DC, but the rules don't really account for this and the "value" of the item should reflect this as well.
Hope this helps with this question...
That's basically how I understood the graft, as a "magical" weapon. (But the DC is still charisma based? no? for whatever purpose that would serve without increasing the DC, that is.)
In regards to the damage from the thown wight, this is covered in the back of the Complete Warrior under improvised weaponry (I unfortunately don't have this book).
Also, the SRD has this to say about improvised weapons:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.Also, according to the DMG, falling objects deal 1d6 damage per 200 lbs of weight. You might think, well, 200 lbs of body matter is a heck of a lot more than a shortsword - but a shortsword is sharp, pointy, and doesn't bend or break (if used correctly) when striking your foe.
CRs do NOT add together. Not even close. In fact, 2 critters of a CR are at a CR = CR of 1 creature +2. (IE: 2 CR 8 critters = CR 10 encounter.) This Calculator is handy for CR calculations. Using the calculator, it says the Encounter Level is 11, which sounds about right.Okay, the EL/ECL/LA/CR thing can be really confusing at first, and delveg is mostly right, BUT:
There are two ways of calculating experience gained from an encounter:
RIGHT: Calculate experience for each monster individually, and add up all the experience.example: a party of 6th level characters encountering with 2 CR 6 creatures would yield a total of 3,600 experience with this method.
ALSO RIGHT: Use the table on page 49 of the DMG to calculate the EL (encounter level) of the encounter. Then calculate the experience as if the party had encountered a single creature of...
For the encounter, I added up the CR's one creature at a time yielding one amount of experience at a time. (since I'm STILL kinda fuzzy on EL, even with the chart on pg 50, is what I believe you're talking about.)
So, grappling and throwing someone into another person counts as an Improvised Weapon? so he'd take a -4 on his presumed attack roll? (I'm not sure what he rolled originally, but yeah 90 anything seemed a bit high...)
As you suspected-- wow that was dense. Here are a few questions I managed to pick out-- if you have further questions, maybe ask them clearly (and without the game fiction tied to the questions) below.
CRs do NOT add together. Not even close. In fact, 2 critters of a CR are at a CR = CR of 1 creature +2. (IE: 2 CR 8 critters = CR 10 encounter.) This Calculator is handy for CR calculations. Using the calculator, it says the Encounter Level is 11, which sounds about right.
Make sure the player knows that you were intentionally trying to setup his death-- that during the campaign you'll be using much more reasonable ELs. (If this was your first time GMing, he might worry that you don't understand what you did.)
Haste: Adds 30', but only to a maximum of double their move, so 40x2, 40x3 in a stumbling run. The spell (if you're playing 3.5) is now very clear-- you do NOT get an extra action. If you do a full attack, you get one extra swing, but that's it.
I can't help you with the eye graft, as I don't own Libris Mortis.
Other FYIs:
a) Everburning torches are just a light spell, so they don't go out, never produce heat, etc.
b) Moving silently: You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to move silently while running or charging.
c) This is completely wrong: ...and did 96 damage to the receiving slaughter wight and 8 damage to the thrown(I believed him when he said it'd be the weight of the thrown subject plus strength modifier and whatever it was for the thrown subject). It makes no sense at all. At best, throwing someone is a large improvised object-- you're talking a d6+Str, maybe. (See the equipment chapter of the PHB.)
If what he's saying was the case, tossing a gallon of milk at someone (8 lbs), would kill any commoner, most rogues, rangers, and the like.It...
He was a monk, regular torch. I know everburning torches aren't anything like regular burning torches (in that they don't burn, just a continual light spell cast on a fancy stick)
With a +22 to move silently and rolling 18s and 19s, it wasn't impossible for the Slaughter Wight to move it's full speed...which I believe is exactly what it did and would have done in an attempt to not just sneak up on the PC, but to close the distance with confidence. The Move Silently was a secondary bonus, the Slaughter Wight KNEW that he could kill the PC, it was more a matter of WHEN. (though as I stated, it wasn't the slaughter wights that got him...)
Alright going by what Thanis said...
so then 8 damage to the target creature would still be excessive as the most he could get I'd say would be 1d3 +4 str, so 7 would be more accurate...and the thrown creature would receive what damage? the same 1d3+4 str? (so if he tries this manuever again, I just have to figure out the weight of the thrown creature, if it is 200 lbs, 1d6 + str?
How about a manuever I sort of came up with, but haven't ever used...a successful grapple, then swinging the target (the held) creature into a solid object, like a wall or an immobile creature? (throwing them into a wall basically, again, like an improvised weapon so a -4- would it be, on a successful attack roll on the wall, be like falling damage 1d6 + distance travelled + str?) This player heard me talk about this manuever, so he might try it later and I want to be ready for it if he does...(noting that a creature to creature contact might just do subdual damage even with improved unarm strike)
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I'm assuming you mean so many d6's for a distance travelled range, not damage straight from the distance travelled (ie not +10 for travelling 10 feet, +20 for twenty feet, etc, but +d6 for each unit of distance travelled (see +1d6 per 10 feet)?
That would make it similar in effect to the Awesome Blow Monster Feat.
So, Mithral Full Plate of Speed, since it cuts the wearer's speed down to 20 (unless, say he was a dwarven barbarian...) that makes it a movement rate of 40ft with haste cast (40x2 and 40x3 in a stumbling run) basically, it would make pursuit of the fleeing monk character, PRACTICAL, the monk was probably running at stumbling speed and the cleric in the full plate was probably only running double his speed, but in a flanking manuever. (Imagine a half ellipse (south by southwest I suppose) for the cleric pursuing a beeline south, where the pursued character actually turns around-north by northwest, as he was cornered by a 2nd Slaughter Wight and heard noise to the southeast. Thus, the manuevering of the cleric pays off in being able to literally be exactly where the monk ends up exactly when he looks north to see the cleric long enough to die afterwards.
Sounds nasty, I know...
I think you overcomplicated the fight somewhat. I'm a firm believer in keeping things simple unless you have no other choice. This keeps you from making gaffs in front of the PCs or getting confused with the rules. DMing is a skill like anything else and is a lot harder than it looks. No need to make it harder than it needs to be. Hopefully, the fight sequence enabled your player to come up with a superior background to the one he first made up.
I think you overcomplicated the fight somewhat. I'm a firm believer in keeping things simple unless you have no other choice. This keeps you from making gaffs in front of the PCs or getting confused with the rules. DMing is a skill like anything else and is a lot harder than it looks. No need to make it harder than it needs to be. Hopefully, the fight sequence enabled your player to come up with a superior background to the one he first made up.
It did help him make a background, but more importantly...for both of us...it gave us a first encounter with me as the DM. he's dm'd before, but he's used to Epic Level, he admits to being useless at low levels...
I improvised the entire session, I even changed the armor from regular full plate to Mithral Full Plate of Speed, for the sake of keeping up with the friggin monk's running away ability. (he agreed to a death sentence, trying to survive is okay, naturally, but I had to catch him, and in doing that on the fly I greater developed an NPC so he can escape or out-manuever his foes with Haste.If you would, refer to the thread I'm about to post on Darkness if you have other issues with this encounter...(After all, it was in the dead of night near the new moon, I ruled the character could only see 10 ft clearly, the wights had darkvision and the cleric had blindfighting and a decent enough hide check, but more so the ability to stay out of sight)