The power of PC's seems to go up with each release of a book in my games. UC,UPG,UM,UCG ect..the number of options and bonus's to the power of the pc's goes up and up while the monsters mostly stay the same.
Sure if I want to take a adventure path and update all the monsters and pc's with options from those books things might level back out but that's defeating the reason I love adventure paths(save time).
I have Clerics casting fireballs left and right,Wizards with whatever type of energy needed for a encounter on tap,Fighters with sky high AC's and barbarians with AC in the single digits but ungodly DR making high level casters look like low damage dealers.Even the monks are flitting about the battlefield seemingly untouchable.
I know,I know,it can be pointed out that I can limit the books used but we did pay cash for these books,I'd like to use em.
We can talk long into the night about min/maxers and how to discourage them but frankly the game itself seems to encourage such behavior.
What I would like to do instead is talk about CR. Perhaps one way of dealing with this issue is raising the APL of the party based on the added power of the characters now.
Perhaps that way lies madness.I can't decide.
Is the average party now equal to a APL party at release +2?
Would doing so mess with the game too much?
What can we do to balance things out without simply limiting the players or the books we bought?
Does anything even need to be done?
Tell me what ya think!
I'm of the mind that there is simply too much table variation to generalise an APL+2 average. There is no "simple" way to challenge optimizers, by their very nature they will know how to deal with simplicity.
Well, do you allow rebuilding when a new book comes out?
My best advice is suck it up and rework some NPCs/encounters. Even if it means running shorter sessions or a little less often, do some prep work. I love the creative talent behind Paizo, and especially the APs, but the encounters are largely a complete joke. For me, if it came down to running things straight out of the book and no modification, it wouldn't be worth playing.
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I find that four in five Paizo published encounters are complete cake walks with that fifth one risking TPK levels of difficulty.
Every damn time.
You can deal with this in two ways:
1) Rework encounters/creatures/NPCs or
2) Limit the sources players can use. I find that the Core Rule Book + Advanced Players Guide is usually sufficient. This should curtail your power creep problems.
You can deal with this in two ways:
1) Rework encounters/creatures/NPCs or
2) Limit the sources players can use. I find that the Core Rule Book + Advanced Players Guide is usually sufficient. This should curtail your power creep problems.
Yes. The AP's were built with certain things in mind. Bumping the power level makes these APs rather easy.
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Another option is just reducing the xp that the characters get from all encounters.
If a CR 5 encounter is not as difficult for them as it should be, then only give out the XP that would be awarded for a CR4 encounter. This will, over time, result in the party playing at a level under what the adventure path was designed for and should somewhat mitigate the problem of them walking through most encounters. You can also scale back the treasure they find and limit the things that they can purchase or create through crafting (this one is my favorite).
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You could also try something radical like banning books. There are a gazillion posts about how anyone can be a better rogue than the rogue class, because they use options from all over the place. Limit your game to the basic book and suddenly the rogue becomes far more interesting, without an archaeologist bard, or trapper ranger or alchemist blah blah.
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It doesn't make the Rogue more interesting it just makes him the dead weight you need to bring along because he's the only one with Trapfinding.
You could also try something radical like banning books.
Ewww.
If you're just running AP's as-written, try maxing out the enemies' HP and then adding 1-3 enemies (if you don't want the party's EXP to get out of hand, just don't hand out EXP for those extra monsters). A fight has little chance of being difficult unless there's at least one opponent per PC, and even then they'll probably breeze on by. I can't recall exactly which post it was in, but someone did some number crunching and figured out that an encounter with a CR = APL + (# of Players) should have - in terms of raw probability - around a 50% chance of a TPK.
So try nudging the CR of encounters towards APL +2-4? Preferably by adding more "minion" type monsters to even out the number of actions the enemies get.
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From the late Gary Gygax:
Too often, new material purporting to add to a game system is nothing more than a veiled attempt to dominate the game milieu through power, not skill. Such creativity, if it can be called that, amounts to a perversion of the game. It is much like cheating at solitaire. Understanding the scope of opportunity offered to PCs by the game system will certainly discourage the intelligent player from such useless activity.
Perhaps a bit harsh, perhaps an attempt to dissuade people from purchasing another game system, or perhaps foreshadowing the day when roleplaying a core class wasn't going to be enough, when the creativity involved with roleplay becomes replaced with creativity in game mechanics. I'm having this discussion with my group, and my hope is that I never reach a point where I "fix" things by banning books or adjusting CRs. I want the players to resolve to make character concepts, not simply a page with numbers.
Anything else and I'm forcing my idea of change without discussing it with my players first.
It cuts both ways.
A highly optimized character doesn't mean it can't be well role played, interesting, and have a good back story.
However, characters don't need to have unlimited options to make interesting and unique characters. Having the core role book alone provides sufficient options to make interesting and powerful characters.
Run everything directly out of the AP without change. Let players use whatever sourcebook they want. Use the slow XP track in the CRB.
Run everything directly out of the AP without change. Let players use whatever sourcebook they want. Use the slow XP track in the CRB.
This, or simply abolish XP and gauge yourself when the encounters are getting too difficult for your players and they need to receive a new level.
I have Clerics casting fireballs left and right,Wizards with whatever type of energy needed for a encounter on tap,Fighters with sky high AC's and barbarians with AC in the single digits but ungodly DR making high level casters look like low damage dealers.Even the monks are flitting about the battlefield seemingly untouchable.
You don't need to look any further than the core book to reach ultimate power.
Your party is made up mostly of people that do hitpoint damage and resist hitpoint damage. I don't see you mentioning any battlefield control effects from the casters, so I'll assume that they are blasting all the time.
Throw save-or-suck/die effects at them. Have them fight an enemy wizard who has grease, Web, Hideous Laughter, Stinking Cloud, Ray of Exhaustion, sleet storm, black tentacles, cloudkill, feeblemind (for the casters) and so on.
When the blasters casters are caught up in your horrible debilitation effect send in a swarm of bees
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Yeah, a properly done Wizard is still the gold standard for 'most powerful character', though the Teleportation subschool from the APG does help with that...nothing since then is necessary, though, and even that isn't required, just handy.
In fact, I don't think anything since the APG is actually more powerful than corebook classes with APG stuff. Or APG classes.
This power creep thing? Not something I've noticed much, and I've been playing Pathfinder a while now.
Now, the APs are created for not-especially optimized PCs, with 15 point-buy, in a group of 4. So...if you have five 20 point-buy characters or some such thing, or even if your players are just good at optimizing, you're gonna do better than expected. This isn't even necessarily a problem, as long as everyone is having fun.
Yeah, a properly done Wizard is still the gold standard for 'most powerful character', though the Teleportation subschool from the APG does help with that...nothing since then is necessary, though, and even that isn't required, just handy.
I personally prefer to throw the foresight subschool onto my BBEG wizards, just so that I can legitimately shrug off any attempt of the party to try and ambush the wizard with a speedy inter-planar retreat.
Now, the APs are created for not-especially optimized PCs, with 15 point-buy, in a group of 4. So...if you have five 20 point-buy characters or some such thing, or even if your players are just good at optimizing, you're gonna do better than expected. This isn't even necessarily a problem, as long as everyone is having fun.
It should also be pointed out that the average/"expected" results of 4d6 drop 1 is higher than a 15 point buy, and actually lines up very nicely with the 20 point buy.
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I'm having this discussion with my group, and my hope is that I never reach a point where I "fix" things by banning books or adjusting CRs. I want the players to resolve to make character concepts, not simply a page with numbers.Character concept does not preclude high power characters. I say this as the guy who frequently has the most optimized character at the table, with a very thoroughly thought out backstory, motivation, purpose, and personality all in one package.
I agree so long as the enjoyment of the group as a whole comes first. If a player intentionally creates a character that so overwhelms the contributions of the others so that their efforts are more of an afterthought, then over-optimization and use of "splatbooks" becomes a negative. It's up to the players to glean where that balance lies, a difficulty if you don't know your group well. The books past the Core aren't bad...they are what the players make them.
Books beyond the Core may have created a scenario of the "law of unintended consequences" wherein gamers are encouarged to focus on mechanical advantage rather than what best enhances the game for all players. Are you creating the raging barbarian dipped into alchemist for mutagens with all optimal feats and ability scores selected (after scouring the forums and all outstanding sourcebooks) because you believe the rest of the group will have a better time at the table, or are you simply pushing the game system to create a character that can one-shot bosses and win the DPR race like your warlock does in warcraft? Are you dipping that one level into lame oracle as a barbarian because you honestly have a character concept and this coincidentally happened to fit it, or are you doing it because you know the lame penalty is offset by barbarian speed and at 5th level you can negate fatigue on rage, giving you a mechanical benefit?
The fix lies with group discussion, not CR bumps. Players should look for advantage, but through ingenuity in roleplaying, not through ingenuity in mechanics. It's a subtle distinction but an important one.
I find that four in five Paizo published encounters are complete cake walks with that fifth one risking TPK levels of difficulty.
Every damn time.
Ye gods, Harrowstone....
Harrowstone is bad.
Schloss Caromarc is just EVIL.