Goblin Squad Member
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Ok... so from the gameplay video's there is some tactical maneuvering going on... and that made me wonder if racial speeds will be used in the game?
For example, a half-orc, a half-elf, and a halfling walk into a bar.. does the halfling walk slower? If they are running down a road, would the halfling be left behind? This is barring, of course, things like animal mounts, magic speed boosts, etc.
This also made me think of an entire party of adventurers running down the road, the poor little halflings and gnomes feet moving just as fast as they can... and getting further and further behind their taller companions.
Boojum the brown bunny
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope not. Movement speed is one of the most important things in games like this. If I can move even the slightest bit faster than you can, I have a massive advantage in an extended fight. You can never escape from me (without outside influence).
I really, really hope that the small races are balanced with modern design principles, rather than those used in the tabletop game. The mechanical advantages that small races would need to have to make a movement speed nerf balanced would be immense, in my mind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the Halfling having a lower first-person viewpoint will be the most we will ever see when it comes to racial realism. Personally I loved (and still love) that feature in Everquest: you really are looking at knees all the time when you play a Halfing or Gnome in 1st person in that game. The good thing is that it seems as if you are moving a lot faster since you are so near to the ground. :)
But Halflings actually being slower then other races, no, I do not see that happen. Not many Halflings would be played then.
@Bringslite Indeed, unless the Ogre is ignoring the Halfling because he spotted something a little meatier....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sorry, that would be so funny! Yes, Halflings and Gnomes are slower than the bigger races, but also have a reduced chance the big monsters will target them... because big monsters want bigger meals!
Conversely, smaller monsters could tend to target small characters more often than bigger characters.. on the grounds that they couldn't eat an entire half orc if they tried!
*snicker* Ok, that would add some interesting complications to combat! The party running away, the tallfolk leaving the halflings behind.. and the huge brute of a monster running right past the sprinting halflings to get to the larger prey!
Boojum the brown bunny
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Goblin Squad Member
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*snicker* Ok, that would add some interesting complications to combat! The party running away, the tallfolk leaving the halflings behind.. and the huge brute of a monster running right past the sprinting halflings to get to the larger prey!
Boojum the brown bunny
But you also have to consider the entirety of the game space, which includes PvP. If halflings are slower than other races, they will not be considered acceptable for PvP on those grounds alone (unless they get something ridiculous like a large evasion chance, but I don't see that happening). It would interfere with logistics, formations, and just generally keeping up in combat, both for PvP and PvE. I don't want to see an entire race like halfling relegated to a minor role of only roleplayers or noncombatants, which would likely be the result of making them significantly slower than others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A good point, Pax. But it should be pointed out that the same argument applies to the paper and pencil version of Pathfinder. That their limited movement in combat causes some people to avoid playing them and that it interferes with logistics, formations, and keeping up in combat. Trust me, as someone who has played halflings in the Pathfinder Society I'm aware of these limitations.
Also, the reverse is true.. That faster character races/classes/etc will mess up logistics. Should they slow a race with a movement of 40 back down to 30? Should they remove all feats that improve speed? Should a fighter in full, heavy plate have the same running speed as a lightly armored Elf Rogue? At what point does this move out of the realm of making the game fun for everyone and into the realm of making the race of the character irrelevant? Making everyone human with a different paint job?
Possibly one solution would be to make riding dogs cheap, so that the smaller races can sit on their dog and keep up the other adventurers, but still keeping their racial differences when they are on foot?
Boojum
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ordinarily I would have argued for this, and suggested GW do 10000 battles between an equally geared medium vs small character. Everything else equal, the small hit box of the small character should allow it to win more often. So, to compensate, adjust the small characters speed so to return the win ratio to as close to 50% as possible.
But...then I remembered this is tab targeting...and decided to argue against.
EDIT: And of course, I also understand that everything else would not have necessarily been equal, for instance, small weapons to less damage. Perhaps that difference alone would have negated my balancing methodology.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ordinarily I would have argued for this, and suggested GW do 10000 battles between an equally geared medium vs small character. Everything else equal, the small hit box of the small character should allow it to win more often. So, to compensate, adjust the small characters speed so to return the win ratio to as close to 50% as possible.
But...then I remembered this is tab targeting...and decided to argue against.
EDIT: And of course, I also understand that everything else would not have necessarily been equal, for instance, small weapons to less damage. Perhaps that difference alone would have negated my balancing methodology.
Also, your pitting like vs like in your analysis, something that you have to be careful of in game balancing in a game that isn't just about combat. For example, a small character may get a stealth bonus. A gnome might get a bonus to some crafting. A halfling might get a bonus to grow crops for the settlement.
The world as described by the game designers feels more like a tabletop RPG than a standard MMO to me... that is one reason why I backed it. Combat is not the be all, end all goal, like it is in most other games. Combat is something that happens in the world, along with trading, growing, building, and all the other things. It's an important part, but not the most important part.
I really don't want the whole world to be filled with humans that just happen to have different meshes attached to them. I sort of like the idea that the compensation for playing a character who is slower might come from places other than a straight out stand up fight.
Boojum the brown bunny
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very true, considering it is a settlement conquest game (as stated by GW), there will be lots of PvP, but...as you say, there are many facets to PvP. Someone has to supply the weapons and armor, grow the food, mix healing pots, etc. Some races, small ones for example, probably would be less naturally influential in warfare. The balance does not necessarily have to be in combat.
Very good point, thank you for reminding me there was more than PvP to the game.
To those saying "no one will play it if it is not good in PvP" I do not think the difference needs to be insurmountable for those who want to put the effort in. But, even were it, there are many people interested in PFO who are only marginally interested (or even outright uninterested) in PvP. Effectiveness in PvP would be the last consideration on their mind.
Make gnomes a bit slower, give them a racial 'run' skill which...if you put in the training time, gives them a fraction more speed per rank...up to Medium speed for those who want to participate in formations and the like.
EDIT: In fact, I am not convinced there needs to be "balance" at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You know, that might actually be the best solution. Make them a bit slower and then provide ways to up your speed if you want to develop your character in that direction. Just like with damage. If small weapons do less damage, you have options to increase your damage (feats, strength, magic, etc..)
Then the player can decide how much time and effort their character will put into becoming the ultimate hand to hand fighter or the ultimate mage or the ultimate smith.
Of course, this raises the possibility of monofocussed characters who become unbalancing because of all the things they did to increase their crit chance (or in other ways.) One thing I've seen in some other games is that there is a max to how many bonuses you can stack.. but I'm not sure if that is the right idea for Pathfinder Online.
Boojum the brown bunny
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a game system developer and realist, size in RL has Pros and Cons given the universal rule of "Give and Take."
Bigger/taller folk can move faster (land travel), hit harder, and have better reach.
but their size means they are easier to hit, easier to spot, hindered in smaller areas, need more food.
Smaller folk can hide better, harder to hit, can go in areas that would hinder someone bigger and need less food.
But they give up damage output, land speed and reach.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think runningspeed is a huge asset, not only in PvP. People will want to run as fast as they can, wether they are fighting, fleeing, travelling or running from the bank to the store in their own settlement. In Everquest, the runspeed Spell Spirit of Wolf was the most sought after buff from day 1. Since then a bazillion Spells, clickies and mounts have been added because the chase for more speed was such a huge thing in the game.
For me Halflings should be about twice as good in *anything* else if I would have to put up with a lower speed.
So I think you are asking for a balancing-nightmare: balancing less speed with other perks and then hoping that people will not still massively ignore Halflings at character-creation. The fine-tuning of that will be endless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a scenario where bigger(fast) and small (mobile) show that speed is not everything.
Imagine a narrow corridor with junk, the bigger fella is chasing the smaller fella.
The big guy is going to snag and catch on the junk more frequently than the smaller guy and thus the speed of the bigger guy goes down to a lot.
the smaller guy though slower will snag and catch on the junk at less than half the big guy.
So who's faster, answer the small guy.
The environment is a big factor.
In an open area, yes speed is power, but when you get into tighter and or junk laden paths the smaller mobile folk are better.
To balance it off GW could make areas where your speed means nothing, but mobility is king.
i.e really dense forest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, lets see now.. in the Pathfinder rules the Halfing gets -2 STR, +2 Dex, +2 CHR, Slow speed: 20, +1 AC, +1 Attack Bonus, -1 Combat Maneuver, +4 Stealth, +2 save vs fear, +1 all saves, +2 Perception, +2 acrobatics/climb,
So lets us say that the +2 Dex counters the -2 STR (a bit better defense vs a bit less damage). And the -1 CMB countering the +1 attack bonus.
So for the reduced movement you are getting +2 Charisma, +1 AC, +4 Stealth, +2 save vs fear, +1 all saves, +2 Perception, and +2 acrobatics/climb. That is quite a list for your reduced movement, but it has to be in a game system where those other things can help you.
Then the question becomes, how important are those bonuses in the Pathfinder Online game? If they are all useful in the game (not necessarily just in combat) then I would say I'm well rewarded. My halfling sorcerer gets more powers, my halfling rogue spots traps better, I tend to take less damage from things that have saving throws.
So I don't agree that all races have to be equal in standing next to each other and bashing each other with swords provided there are other benefits that they can get in the world. Pathfinder seems like that sort of a world.
Honestly, I'd rather see them try something like this and then have to reballance after people complain during the alpha/beta than not even try it.
Boojum the brown bunny
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not think people will complain much: 90% will roll another race, 1% will play the Halfling as an Alt most likely and 9% will complain on the forums that they want halflings to have the same runspeed as other races.
The problem is when you balance it against perks, is that those perks most likely are tied to other game-systems. So everytime a change occurs, or some feature gets added, or a nerf is done, or some feature slowly becomes obsolete over time, you have to rebalance it, since runspeed will *always* be important for people. So people expect fair returns for this offset.
By far the easiest way to balance the lower runspeed of Halflings, is to increase their speed so that they run just as fast as other races...
Even runspeedbuffs are tricky: they pretty much made it so in Everquest that everyone now has easy access to the fastest speeds. But at least with buffs everyone starts on the same playing ground.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Smaller size also means smaller hit boxes,
people seem to be forgetting that.
Actually, I wasn't forgetting it. I was seeing that as the in-engine expression of a +1 AC that you get for being of small size. :) The effect is the same, that it's harder to hit you.
Boojum the brown bunny
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Goblin Squad Member
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non-combat travelling speed: With mounts there is already going to be different speeds, so the issue isn't really balance but rather that being slower makes everything more boring. I don't see anyone complaining if they allow halflings to explore, trade and commute to work just as fast as humans.
combat speed: the issue is escape/pursuit, but there are more parameters to play with than run speed, e.g. opportunity, dodge and stamina costs. It should be possible to give halflings/gnomes ways to escape without making it impossible for monks to run away from full-plated clerics.
Maybe the same 'sprint' move would cost have different stamina cost for different races? Maybe halflings could have move buffs/abilities to help escape but not pursue? Or a racial bonus to negate opportunity?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Smaller size also means smaller hit boxes...In real life, yes, but programmers are under no obligation to make the hit box smaller for a small avatar. It'd be different if the hit box were drawn on us, but since it's invisible, they can do whatever they choose.
Smaller hit boxes don't require programming, as the hit boxes are generated based on the model itself.
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Or maybe your stealth could come in with regards to escaping combat... The old halfling vanishing into the berry bushes and not coming out trick.
Boojum the brown bunny
Exactly, speed is not everything.
Speed is useless or hampered depending on the environment.|
Goblin Squad Member
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It's been suggested by Ryan that certain classes will be more or less popular for PvP due to speed difference. So I think the answer may very well be yes, halfling are slower.
There are some important ways they can compensate though. Stealth is going to be an incredibly valuable skill for PvP if you know how to properly employ it. We also have no word on how attack ranges will work. We also don't have much word on mounted combat.
I think stealth bonuses and riding dogs may be incredibly valuable to small races in PvP, and that some of the other slower races such as dwarves might find PVP builds that focus on things like incredible attack range or plugging gaps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly, I think that it's ok that certain races and classes will be less popular in PVP... You don't create a game to only include the popular elements.. you include them, yes.. but that's not all you do or you just end up with the same game that everyone else has.
Some characters will be better at some types of play, others at other sorts of play... that's ok. I'm more worried about the character that's good at everything than I am about some characters having disadvantages in some aspects of the game.
Boojum the brown bunny
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just don't want to run a halfling cavalier alt (something well established and actually common for PC cavaliers in Pathfinder TT) and get chased out of town for making an ineffective troll build.
Of course all my fears about halflings and gnomes becoming marginalized could be unfounded, as there's practically nothing about the differences between the races yet, or how those differences will affect play experience. I was only basing my objections on the well-established idea that character move speed is extremely important in games with a significant amount of PvP. Even a gatherer will have times in his career where he will wish he didn't pick the race with crappy move speed (like when he's running from raiders).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if there is tab targeting, the probability of a hit will vary with range/reach, cover, and size. You may be able to tab target that gnome, but you are hitting less often.
And the argument goes the other way. There are some choices in table top that add +10' (foot) to base movement. In TT rules, some characters have 20' base move, most have 30', and some have 40' (or more). I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find those options that are 40' base move).
Even if the base move is other than 30', there are other issues that ameliorate. Dwarves have reduced base, but take no decrease for armor. A dwarf in full plate is no slower than his mate stepping out of the bath. Other encumbrance effects still apply. carrying a lot of gold or gems will slow that dwarf.
When that tables are published players will figure how to min-max. Not publishing tables does not stop min-max, just confines it to those better connected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It was stated by Lee Hammock around a year ago that movement speeds would vary by race, encumbrance, etc. That was back when everyone was still fired up from the 2nd Kickstarter, before we really understood just how thin Minimum Viable Product could be. At this point, I'd be more concerned that if variable movement speeds aren't MVP, if/when they're introduced the shortlings and heavy armour wearers will have been spoiled to the point that the resulting fanboy rage will screw it all up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember it being established during KS2 the MVP would have humans, elves, and dwarves; and gnomes will be the first new race added onto the three from MVP.
Half our options are going to be shawties so we should have some "We're planning this..." answers soon by alpha time right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lam, dwarves' move speed isn't altered by what they're carrying, unless it's over max load. Their states are full speed or no speed, with no in between, unlike other races. Source here where it says " Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance."
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Goblin Squad Member
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people are talking about halfings and gnomes, but I am not hearing much if anything about dwarves. They move base 20' as well. Difference is they are actually medium, so no bonus to stealth/attack/CMD but they also don't get slowed down based on armor and encumbrance. You telling me people won't play dwarves because they are slow? Looking at the TT as a guide, they (Races) are balanced in a way that isn't always even. It is give and take, as others above have said. We have a strong RP community from the TT looking to come to this game and I think keeping similar to the TT rules for races will be fine. I know not everything transfers 1-1 but if you (Devs) can keep the feel and flavor of each race, then I believe that each race will have a place and get played.
I know there will be min/maxers. I know people will play "the best race" once they figure it out. Fact is, even in the TT there are "best races" for each class combo. Elves make the best archers, dwarves among the best fighter types, halfings the best rogues ect. But making a half-orc wizard with a 20 str and 16 int (3.5 rules) was just epic LOL. I see people doing similar things in PFO. Atleast they will if the races allow them to do so. Keep the slow races slow, and big races big. There are feats and traits there for those trying to compensate.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It was stated by Lee Hammock around a year ago that movement speeds would vary by race, encumbrance, etc. That was back when everyone was still fired up from the 2nd Kickstarter, before we really understood just how thin Minimum Viable Product could be. At this point, I'd be more concerned that if variable movement speeds aren't MVP, if/when they're introduced the shortlings and heavy armour wearers will have been spoiled to the point that the resulting fanboy rage will screw it all up.
Here is indeed the quote from Lee Hammock.
We are looking at doing modifications to speed based on race, encumbrance, and armor, with dwarves moving slower but getting reduced effects for wearing armor and encumbrance (how reduced we won't know until we get in and start tweaking). We want people in plate mail to be slow moving tanks, not sprinting speed machines zipping across the battle field. That is the job of someone in leather or studded leather.
I stand corrected, I would not have expected them go this bold, truly RPG-ish (and nightmarish if you ask me) route. It certainly is applaudable and if they manage to balance it, it should make a lot of people happy, including me.
I myself will most definately choose a race that is fast: not so much for the combat and fleeing-advantage (since I agree that a LOT of other skills and factors can come into play that offset speed)but because I expect about 99% of my running in the game to be out of combat or flee-mode. And I have a Need for Speed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I myself will most definately choose a race that is fast: not so much for the combat and fleeing-advantage (since I agree that a LOT of other skills and factors can come into play that offset speed)but because I expect about 99% of my running in the game to be out of combat or flee-mode. And I have a Need for Speed.
that makes perfect sense to me, and demonstrates the difference between designing a game for one style of play and one that implements multiple styles of play. For example, I don't do really well moving around a whole bunch. When I play fighters, I tend to play tanks. Not a lot of movement, lots of AC, lots of hit points, and whatever buffs I can beg out of the priests. I tend to loose track of what is around me if I move to much. This means my play style is going to be different than yours and maybe I want to play a dwarven tank who moves slowly and steadily rather than a lightly armored elf who scampers around a lot.
Boojum the brown bunny
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm 100% for building the races so they feel different in play even if you're doing basically the same thing with a gnome, elf, and half-orc. But I think equalizing base move speed is one of those things that has to happen for the transferrence to MMOs avoiding more hassle than it's worth, like how we can have access to a million coins without hauling around sacks with a million coins in them.
Move speeds should definitely change with encumbrance and other logical factors, bit I think it makes so many interwoven game systems so much easier if you say small folk learned to walk a little faster and tall folk have gotten a little slower so in Golarion terms everyone is a 25 now, or something. There are plenty of other ways to differentiate races and logically modify move speeds to create interesting decisions for players. But you avoid all the relatively meaningless hassles of a mixed height group that wants to walk together even down the road to the next settlement; let alone trying to make something widely perceived as "fair" around pvp that doesn't see races widely abandoned.
He was saying he wanted to fight and die for a sack of gold THEN spend the same amount of time harvesting five bags of gold. There should be another word for a typo that changes the entire meaning of its sentence.
In every mmo that has had racial differences there has been one race deemed better for a job and that race was alway selected by the majority for that job.
In Eve it was for a long while the Caldari. Then eve got rid of racial differences
In Wow it was Tauren's for horde tanks for a long while because of the 5% hp bonus until blizzard changed a lot of the racials. Currently (from what I hear) humans are still the race of choice for pvp due to getting an extra trinket effect
If a particular race is best for pvp in PfO given it is a game that has a large pvp component then expect most people to be that race.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally don't mind if they make a race that a majority of people want to be, like say human so no bonus but no penalty either. It fits with the world where humans are the most common and spread out race. Just make sure that each race is viable and playable. If you made halflings slow without some sort of bonus (greater stealth and better attack/lower being hit, ect) then no one will play them. That is my big thing, make them varied and viable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Certain races are always going to be best for certain things. They are also going to be the worst for others. This needs to remain to add variety. Movement speeds need to vary. Use your races innate abilities to over come that. If you are are are a halfling rogue, you better use stealth or mobility to get away. That plate wearing fighter should be slow also. Caltrops also work well for get a ways.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only problem I have with racial movement speeds is having to wait for the slowpokes or having a guilt trip that my friends are having to wait for me every couple of minutes.
Maybe they could add an early spell that negates racial abilities including slower speeds. It breaks on combat and can only be used on party members. It would be risky to use because if a group using the spell was attacked, their racial bonuses would be turned off. For heavily laden tanks, maybe the armor bonus could also be reduced to the level it would be if they were wearing the maximum weight before the slowing effect is applied.
