From the sound of it this is an extremely high level character. He probably has 13 or more level in monk plus levels in barbarian. I suspect that the GM does not intend for you to defeat him at this point. If that is the case there may be some story related way to deal with him.
The monk’s defenses vs magic are pretty high so trying to find the spell that is going work is going to be difficult. You will need to find a spell that does not allow a save, or magic resistance. Good luck with that. What will work better is focusing your party on boosting your best ranged character. An archer paladin would probably be the best person for the job. Have the rest of the party cast their spells on him. Even with the AC the monk has that is probably the best way to deal with him.
I always love these conspiracy theory posts... where the comment section is filled with "your DM is out to get you, storm out of the room and teach him a lesson, blagh!"
:D So for the sake of argument we're going to pretend for a moment that your DM -didn't- choose to stack racial variants improperly (especially since, y'know, he's a monk and could have acquired spell resistance through another source or even through his class) and that he -didn't- cheat to give his character the ability to move and attack (barbarian pounce? Maybe his mook took the experimental spellcaster and accelerate wordspell to give him an extra move action per round?) just so that he could lord over his players and stroke his ego at their expense.
Spells that don't target spell resistance are a great choice for any of the casters in your party.
An invisible gunslinger so try and nail his flat-footed touch AC might help as well!
Maybe try to build something around an Accelerated Drinker, Potion of True Strike, and just whittle him away.
And maybe it may depend on your groups synergy. You would be amazed at how high a person's attack bonus will get when you start to stack buff spells with paladin smite (aura) with barbarians who are raging. One of my players is a Samsaran Magus who uses Dance of a Hundred Cuts (mystic past life) and one of the other characters buffs her with Moment of Greatness. That, coupled with spells like Monstrous Physique (for the strength bonus) and the Arcane Accuracy magus arcana send her attack bonus into the stratosphere.
And again, it could all just be part of the DM's story. Lots of great stories start with a big bad that trumps the heroes hard enough to leave them -wanting- to beat him into the floor. It could have been a plot arc to give you guys some insight as to the BBEG and allow you to brainstorm the best ways to beat him.
You'll be surprised. Some DM's are there to tell a story and not just play a game. It could be that he is trying to establish something really memorable for your group.
Or maybe he's just a power-tripping lunatic! :D I've never met the guy so I can't say for sure!
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Here's what you're going to need:
A dead flying creature
A Hellwasp Swarm
A friendly necromancer
Craft Trap
1) Create/control a Spectre.
2) Have it kill a Hellwasp Swarm (swarms are considered a single creature).
Now you have a Spectral Hellwasp Swarm.
3) Animate any Flying corpse as a Fast Plague Hostcorpse Zombie.
Use Sculpt Corpse, a Hat of Disguise, and the Disguise skill to make the zombie look like the person the Monk hates the most (with wings).
4) Call him Dave.
5) Fill Dave with Spectral Hellwasps and about ten Dispel Magic traps triggered to go off when Dave dies.
6) When the monk shows up, have Dave attack the monk. When Dave dies, he's going to Explode.
7) The monk then has 10 Dispel Magic effects go off in his face, has to make a Fort save against Zombie Rot, and is now in the middle of Swarm that is Incorporeal, immune to weapons, has DR 10/Good, and automatically hits for 2 negative Levels every round.
8) Laugh.
8) Laugh.
it would seem your avatar is already doing it for me.
What level is your character?
Show him a monk thread.
Be a rogue, terrain mastery for most feats and rogue tricks. take 3 levels of horizon walker. Enjoy hitting him with a dagger at lvl 10 for +30 attack and damage, or lvl 16 for +60ish attack and damage
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Kill off his main buffer-minion first? Then hide the corpse and allow for some time to let the buffs wear off?
Yeah, unless he's got infinite numbers of these pet sorcerers lying around, just turn and nuke every minion he brings with him, while defending yourself from his flyby attacks. Him having infinite AC, SR, saves, etc. won't do crap to protect his support team.
@Loros: for barbarian pounce he needs to be 10th lvl barb and for monk Sr he would need to be 13th lvl unless I am missing something. I suppose that it's possible they are fighting a 23rd lvl character since the op still has said nothing about level, point buy, wealth, etc. It's also possible given the reluctance of the op to answer said questions that this is all just theory crafting and not actual play report. That said, kill the minions, dispel/antimagic field, etc. Then tackle the suddenly sad panda of a monk.
Acquire a scroll of Wish.
Cast Wish: "I wish to gate in something that can easily kill the monk and that absolutely hates monks."
Deal with the consequences of the DM making the spell go awry.
Make sure you have a Dominate Person scroll.
Get a scroll of Plane Shift.
Plane Shift to the Aliens universe.
Use Dominate Person to acquire a UD-4L Cheyenne Dropship and pilot.
Dust off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
The best way to kill this Monk is not the build, it's having the right tool for the job.
Dust of Sneezing and Choking is the 'instant win' item you need to kill this guy. He could possibly die from the Con damage alone, though he'll probably make his save, in that case, he's stunned for 5d4 rounds. Since he's stunned, he loses his dex bonus (and by extension, any Dodge bonus) to AC and he takes no actions for the next 5 rounds at minimum. It costs either 250 gp (if made from Dust of Tracelessness) or 1,800 gp (if made from Dust of Appearance).
Cockatrice Grit is an alternative to the Dust. Truestrike + this = hit and he takes an automatic 1d4 dex damage. A Qinggong Sensei Monk can give his entire party Truestrike at level 12, then have the entire party fling the Grit at the Monk.
Bonus use the Dust and the Grit together to utterly and ruthlessly kill him. Then cut off his head, and reverse the petrification so you can loot him.
Summon great chuthulu to eat him. Why stick to the lessor evil
seriously though
have a bard inspire courage and cast good hope. Have a cleric buff the party with prayer and bless. Mage casts haste and fly on the main combatants. Have the the main combatents play battle of britain with him. Have a shadow dancer rogue slaughter his minions. Make sure you anchor him. Have the cleric heal damage as needed. Give the cleric, fortification heavy armor, diplacement so he doesn't go down. When the mooks are gone, have the shadow dancer join in. Have plenty of scrolls to restore buffs if needed. Have the mage and bard bombard him with debuffs and dispels. Use force wall to control the battlefield. The bard will need scrolls items for this. Keep pounding until dead.
@Loros: for barbarian pounce he needs to be 10th lvl barb and for monk Sr he would need to be 13th lvl unless I am missing something.
Didn't necessarily mean that he had all of those together.
Was just tossing out ideas as to how he may have gotten certain abilities. :)I mean, if this GM uses mythic too then that opens up a whole new world of crazy.
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I'd need more information, although it really sounds like it's less of a Monk issue and more of a gear issue.
The level and scope of this is very important to know if this is legitimate. If this is happening at level 15-20, yeah the guy is decked out like a boss, he should be stupidly hard. If we're in 5-10, there's a good chance this is just the GM showing off. It's important to find out which one it is, because if it's them showing off, I agree with ignoring the character because there's no reason to fight it.
A 9th level wizard or cleric with the travel domain can mess him up with very little effort.
Step 1: teleport away when he shows up.
Step 2: keep scrying on him until he goes to sleep
Step 3: teleport in a fully buffed party to kill him in his sleep.
I know it is cheezy, but if you have lost several fights to this guy it might be the answer you are looking for.
@Loros: for barbarian pounce he needs to be 10th lvl barb and for monk Sr he would need to be 13th lvl unless I am missing something.Didn't necessarily mean that he had all of those together.
Was just tossing out ideas as to how he may have gotten certain abilities. :)
I mean, if this GM uses mythic too then that opens up a whole new world of crazy.
Aye, I got that, didn't mean to come off snarky. The point is we haven't really been told much, which is frankly, making me suspect that this isn't really an actual play report (though I could be wrong).
Also I agree with N. Jolly. This isn't an issue of an overpowered monk. This is an issue of a character with overpowered gear/allies buffing him to the max. I think most people would agree that a monk CAN be made fairly powerful with powerful enough equipment and enough buffs from the rest of the party. The issue that most people have with the monk is that he tends to require far more in that department than most every other class just to be relatively effective by comparison.
I assume your level 13 at least but if you are 14 you will just murder him. 13synthsummoner/1paladin
Summoner, or better yet SynthSummoner so he just doesn't kill you.
Half Elf will have 20-23 Evo. Pts depending on if you need to take the feats.
Quadaraped: Base Str 14 + 5table +1level advance, +6 belt, +16 Huge size
Str 42
BAB +10 + 16str + 2Amulet + 2charge + 7moral + 1WF Claws
+ 9cha from smite Total +47
Evolutions:
Bite Free
Limbs Leg x2 free
Limbs Arms 2pts
Claws x2 2pts
Huge Size 10pts
Fly 4pts
Improved Natural Armor 1pt
Pounce 1pt
Thats 20 so don't worry about feats for 3 extra
Traits:
Opertunistic Gambler
Whatever you want for a second
Feats:
Skill Focus Survival
Level 1 Weapon Focus
Level 3 Eldritch Heritage Orc Bloodline
Level 5 Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 7 Dragon Style
Level 9 Feral Combat training
Level 11 Quicken Spell Like ability Touch of Rage from EH
So you swift action smite, and haste the party round 1, round 2 swift action touch of rage and murder him.
5 claws at +48 on a pounce each dealing 1d8+34, If he has DR then you just kill him next round.
Gear:
Belt of Strengh +6
Headband of Charisma +6
Robe of Arcane Heritage
AoMF +2
Total 96000gp Have fun killing him.
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@doomed hero
#7 sounds like a disease.
Monks are immune to disease and poisons and eventually. One with spell resistance and anything that gets through all of that generally doesn't make it past their saves. And as we both know they have wonderful AC's when they want to.
Kudo's to demonstrating the trouble one must go to in order to kill a monk. You would never have to come up with as many ridiculous 'Dave' scenarios to drop even most munchin characters unless they tried to be pun pun.
Essentially, everyone in the thread is proving my point (which is a good thing). No, not every monk is unkillable, but most are frustrating to handle and defensive ones are effectively cockroaches. They may not ever kill you hit they'll be around long after the radiation has rendered you sterile, sick and falling apart. :D
@gnomersy
Really? This wasn't even a hint of a challenge.
1.) Monk (lvl 13 drunken master)
2.) Barbarian (lvl 2 invulnerable rager)
3.) Monk (lvl 9 monk of the sacred mountain)
4.) Fighter (lvl 19)
And because this was too easy and I am bored:
5.) Summoner (lvl 16/18)
6.) Magus (lvl 20 myrmidarch)
7.) Paladin (lvl 20 Empyreal knight)
8.) Monk (lvl 19 tetori)
9.) Fighter (lvl 3 unarmed)
10.) Barbarian (lvl 7...)
11.) Fighter (lvl 5 armor master)
12.) Samurai (lvl 1.... Order of the warrior).
Now I have been beyond more than fair (and more that snooty even, perhaps) but I covered all level ranges and didn't even bother with the fact that there are items that provide it and many are very affordable (still costly) across a variety of level ranges and wearable or usable my members of all or several classes.
I ignored spells.
I provided you with three times as many evidences of proof that you needed but could have easily expanded this list, maybe even by as much as double or just half as much. I dunno. Most of those were off the top of my head but I will admit I pulled out a book to help me provide some overkill. I also skipped prestige classes because more than one comes to mind and that would have been even more easy if I used those.
And finally, I skipped feats and races and things like an assimar summoner giving dr to his eidolon at 1st level...so however I may come off I do think that I've been more than fair with the 12 out of many more I listed.
Lastly, I conceded that the gm might be cheating. We do that for the sake of the story and fun sometimes. Sometimes it is just bad timing or a bad decision, too. But we don't know all the facts here. So when you say for a fact that the gm is cheating because an externally buffed monk is flying by with a flurry of blows...well, maybe he found a way.
Maybe he skinned the attack and it's just a high Dmg dealing monk who use one hit or tiger style (somehow) or dragon style and power attack or whatever. Maybe the gm is intentionally describing the single attack as a flurry to trick the pc's or breaking it up into smaller hits for less damage each, all with a chance to miss because,
And I must contradict myself here and use this statement as an edit to my precious post- monks can hit hard as hell. They are entirely capable of dealing devastating amounts of damage.
Unfortunately, and what I should have specified earlier was that hitting the target to land that damage is the issue (and this is why they have flurry).
If the pc's wanted damage reduction they have plenty of ways to get it or approximate it. If the pc's want or need more a , they have options. Between feats and spells alone and the plethora of classes (both unmodified base, and archetypes) there is no excuse for not having these things if they want them.
If he is making a new character to deal with this monk, my best suggestion would be to make a tank (ie another monk or paladin type of character) and abuse defensive mechanics that don't rely in interactingb with the enemy but just allies and use that to buy your party enough time to enact a serviceable strategy.
In conclusion, and I believe that this is important to think about in some capacity:
Their enemy is evil. Their enemy is a boss. Their enemy isn't even lawful! If he isn't cheating somehow, then he is doing it wrong.
Kudo's to demonstrating the trouble one must go to in order to kill a monk. You would never have to come up with as many ridiculous 'Dave' scenarios to drop even most munchin characters unless they tried to be pun pun.Essentially, everyone in the thread is proving my point (which is a good thing). No, not every monk is unkillable, but most are frustrating to handle and defensive ones are effectively cockroaches. They may not ever kill you hit they'll be around long after the radiation has rendered you sterile, sick and falling apart. :D
Indeed you are correct! Any character buffed to gills, higher level, and using illegal combinations like Magic Resistant and Steel Soul would appear to be unkillable.
In all seriousness, I advise you cut back on the high horse as we cannot make any more precise assumptions than what I've already stated from the information given.
As for the OP's dilemma. I'd roll Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with Spell Sunder and Improved DR. Monks are bundles of just little hits so that should be able to soak most of the damage from his hits. If you go in invested with AC, you can get the higher than most AC available. That combination will cause the Monk to whiff, you'll bust his buffs with Spell Sunder and Strength Surge, then kill him. Also carry a bunch of nets. Even with the non-proficiency penalty,(-4) you'll tone down his AC and keep him from either using his full action or moving. Keep in mind it's a ranged touch so it's more likely to hit even with the -4 penalty.
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I had a similar sort of monk as a reoccurring villain in a 3.5 game. The PCs eventually came up with a clever solution. Solid fog to stop him from flying/leaping about, then wall spells to trap him. You'd need a dimensional anchor too if he's high enough for abundant step. Alternatively, lure him in to an enclosed space.
Remember, if you can't beat him at his own game, change the game.
I had a similar sort of monk as a reoccurring villain in a 3.5 game. The PCs eventually came up with a clever solution. Solid fog to stop him from flying/leaping about, then wall spells to trap him. You'd need a dimensional anchor too if he's high enough for abundant step. Alternatively, lure him in to an enclosed space.
Remember, if you can't beat him at his own game, change the game.
My favorite recurring villain in 3.5 was a vampire monk, backed up by a cleric and wizard to buff him. That being said, while the vampiric monk, buffed by a couple of powerful allies, was a bad mamma jamma, that's not exactly an option open to most PCs. The power of the monk came from a) vampire, b) cleric buffer, c) wizard buffer, d) minions that were always around to help defend him/occupy the party.
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@Scavion
Have you read like any of my posts or were you selectively reading them? I have stated no fewer than twice that because we do not know all of the details it is possible that the gm is cheating- or not.
But making the assumption that he is just because we lack details and do not fully understand does not mean that the monk is suddenly not good at the one thing people have (until this thread) been saying the monk does incredibly well.
And get off the high horse? Really? So when people post about how a popular class that is good at doing what it does and posts a build that demonstrates it and everybody applauds and people get on an effective high horse about it's strengths and the like, nobody tells them to get off. Is it because these are popular classes? Well liked? What?
And why is it that when I get on mine about a monk(a villain at that - which offers at least some mild level of excuse for it being stronger than it *might* normally be) that I am being told to get off. Some of the comments people have been making in this thread just scream in my face of unfairness and blatant bias. It is a negative viewpoint where they are trying to have their cake and eat it, too; all at the expense of someone else who has cake owed them and is never getting it, even when a circumstance exists where it is plausible.
Remember that this is a pc's interpretation of a gm's villain. Also remember that a gm might not be perfect and could have made some honest mistakes. Or could be just lying. I know I have intentionally mislead my pc's with that sort of information before. They want meta game info- sure, you can have it, maybe. But the only time you know it is true is if you find out in game or if you ask after it's all over.
But again-none of us really knows. What we do know is that some of the secondhand information that we have seems incorrect and that the party is facing one of the two best defensive characters in the game-one that (again, until this thread it seems) we have been admitting is extremely difficult to kill and because of that difficulty combined with a high inability to efficiently deal tons of damage due to accuracy concerns, can just be ignored since neither the monk or what they are fighting will be dying soon.
Do you see where I am coming from now and how people have suddenly changed their argument to 'well I know I said the monk was good at this to serve as a tool for proving my point that they suck at everything else-but now that someone is using the thing I said they were good at to validate the monk in any way, I am going to be hypocritical and say the exact opposite. Now the monk cannot be good at the thing I said it was because I don't want it to be'.
No. I am riding my high horse all over this thread because I am trampled underfoot in every other (about this subject- the monk).
*edit* tons of grammatical and spelling errors because iPod is being mean and I suck at typing on it.
Dark Immortal: Some of what you said has merit and is worth discussing, but your tone makes me not care, so I'm going to ignore your post. Looks like I'm not the only one who made that decision based on the number of responses you've received.
Normally I wouldn't even bother with this post, but like I said, you have some good ideas.
Try again without the superiority complex. We're talking about a game. My guess is if you present your thoughts in a less demeaning manor, you'll get more replies.
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Essentially, everyone in the thread is proving my point (which is a good thing). No, not every monk is unkillable, but most are frustrating to handle and defensive ones are effectively cockroaches. They may not ever kill you hit they'll be around long after the radiation has rendered you sterile, sick and falling apart. :D
This isn't a case of a Monk being awesome, this is a case of rules being bent. To quote the OP
The DM has decked this villain out with permanency of haste, longstrider, heroism, and enlarge person
The three bolded spells are not ones that can normally be made permanent, which while not EXACTLY cheating (since it's up to GM interpretation), is an example of them using their power as GM to make the character irrationally strong.
Any character could be this strong given buffing partners, illegally permanented spells, and enough gear to finance a small kingdom. Remember also this NPC who is STILL a Monk can fly by their own power. I'm hoping that the Spell Resistance is by class and not race, since Dwarven spell resistance (aside from being impossible with Steel Soul) is also 5 lower than normal, making it FAR less of a factor than Monk SR would be.
And speaking of SR, note that the NPC is being buffed by what I would assume to be weaker NPCs than themselves, and they're 'fixing' debuffs and dispelled buffs as appropriate, it seems like these casters are ALWAYS getting through the Monk's SR, which is also suspect.
There's a lot to this character that doesn't really work in any rules logical way, making it less a "well played monk" and more a "GM power trip."
Well, technically, the monk could be buffing right before the fight, thereby dropping his SR with a standard action, getting buffed, then reapplying his SR.
I would note too that the bolded spells are not, technically speaking, illegally permanented since the permanency spell does give the GM leeway here. However, if I were the PCs, I would immediately seek to apply those permanent buffs to everyone in the party. If the GM balks, then its a more clear indication of "this is my precious snowflake" syndrome on the part of the GM.
But I do still agree with your general sentiment. Its not an issue of the monk being awesome, its an issue of a character being buffed out the wazoo so that he is awesome. Any character with enough buffs will be awesome.
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Well, technically, the monk could be buffing right before the fight, thereby dropping his SR with a standard action, getting buffed, then reapplying his SR.
I would note too that the bolded spells are not, technically speaking, illegally permanented since the permanency spell does give the GM leeway here. However, if I were the PCs, I would immediately seek to apply those permanent buffs to everyone in the party. If the GM balks, then its a more clear indication of "this is my precious snowflake" syndrome on the part of the GM.
But I do still agree with your general sentiment. Its not an issue of the monk being awesome, its an issue of a character being buffed out the wazoo so that he is awesome. Any character with enough buffs will be awesome.
It seems this minion is doing some in battle casting as well.
Plus his mook just dispels any debuffs we do manager to throw on him.
And I'm pretty sure to cast Dispell Magic on someone you have to beat their SR, although I could be wrong on that.
I did state that it wasn't "technically" illegal, but it was outside of the rules. And yeah, I completely agree with trying to permanent the same spells, as permanent Haste is something most people dream about.
I'm honestly assuming the moving and Flurry is just them ignoring the rules, so I'm not trying to suss out how that's possible. So again, not a character playing within the rules. And that's fine, so long as we're aware of that. As long as we know the level we're playing at and what we can work with, we can find a way around it. I myself am a huge fan of an Alchemist with a scroll of a Caging Bomb to trap them for X amount of time, since there's no save to it. Consider it a much weaker and more limited version of 3.5 Force Cage. Hit the Monk and then turn out the lights, unless they have some way to teleport (sadly they probably do, maybe D. Door). Or if not them, their buff monkey since the thing can't be broken by Dispell Magic.
Bleck. That high and mighty kind of response was exactly what I was talking about.
From the OP we know,
1. The monk/barbarian is higher level.
2. Is being supplied with a LOT of consumable buffs
3. Somehow got the racial variant spell resistance and Steel Soul which is an illegal combo(They exclude each other)
So the combination of these three is what led to this. It being a monk isn't exactly the Numero uno reason for why it's unkillable. In fact it's incredibly redundant. Superstitious and apparently both the dwarven magic resistance racials likely does enough to make magic a non-factor. Flurrying isn't a big deal, lots of poor accuracy hits aren't that scary. Evasion reduces paltry damage further. Hes not exactly mobile since he has to stay still to get his full attacks.
All in all, I'd be more worried if it was just a full classed Barbarian with a magic lackey and consumables.
To be fair, a Monk that is 5 or so levels higher than the party can be a pretty tough opponent. Especially given the fact he's got some mega-buffs going on.
One of the biggest problems Monks face is a lack of accuracy, being higher level, and having levels of Barbarian, will mitigate that quite a bit. A 10th level Fighter as a BAB of 10, while a 15th level Monk/Barbarian will have an effective BAB of 13 when he flurries. Top it off with Rage, Power Attack, and all the GM buffs he's got and you're going to have an enemy that is hard to hit, hits often and will deal substantial damage.
He mentioned already that the Monk dropped his Barbarian in a single round, so it's also likely the Monk is probably benefiting from other things, like stacking Lead Blades, and Strong Jaw for large damage dice on top of static damage buffs.
Convert his caster minion to your team! Most Monks have to dump Cha and Int, so they're fairly poor companions. And this is a dwarf monk with a temper!
Should be simple.
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You know, I didn't necessarily feel like I was being 'high and mighty' (excited and glad that a monk was proving itself, sure. Vocal on the fact that a monk could be a big deal for a party to handle-absolutely).
However, I certainly felt like other people were presenting an attitude exactly as I described in my last post-which I felt had some extremely relevant and reasonably specific points (all I am of the opinion of were valid, too).
However, I can see that the concensus seems to be more or less exactly the issue(s) that I brought up and even when I concede a point against my argument as being possible, heck maybe likely (I just admit that we have limited information). I am beginning to feel very much like I am being rational but treated as though I am not being as such. That I am being told to 'calm down man' when I wasn't angry to begin with (doing that is actually an excellent way to make someone angry, of course).
Having made multiple attempts to explain where my arguments have actually and repeatedly been supported by several and various optimizers, I believe that there is nothing more I can say (without just lying and jumping on the bandwagon here), that will get through. And since making people realize what (as far as I understand the definition of the word) is a hypocrisy in their approach to the topic and in some statements made is my goal- I clearly should just stop talking.
If people are at the point of ignoring my posts, ignoring logic, deeming me actually being haughty (rather than excited or even proud/glad) over the issue then it is not worth it. Your reply was as if I had left a bad taste in your mouth. I understand that it is the internet and tone and meaning can easily be misconstrued. Whether I admitted to it before or not, I never actually felt or intended to be condescending (in fact the statement about riding my high horse all over the thread was part joke and part point to prove the hypocrisy rampant in the thread).
Maybe I should have used more smileys, maybe my charisma is 2. Do I care at this point? Not really. What I will take the time to do, however is pay attention so that I know who I can and cannot reason with.
I will also be more careful with what I post in the future since becoming casual and familiar leads exactly to these situations where people assume (to be fair based on what is said).
And yeah, N Jolly is right. It is just a game- games are designed to be fun but listening to the tone in this thread really isn't and I've been about as fair on the matter to both sides as any sane person should be expected to. So since I making the army of people who dislike the topic unhappy with my apparent tone and they have made me frustrated with either contradictions or their own apparent tone, I will go.
Now everyone can resume page 1's theme of statements without further interruption From me.
And to make my last post a contribution:
Fight fire with fire. Play like a villain, lure the monk into a trap (preferably in a lair of some sort) and let the dungeon do the work. Planar ally spells to recruit powerful entities to aid you. Create rumors about the villain, preferably embarrassing ones so that even an attempt to conquer a town will be made more difficult because everyone thinks he has streaks in all his loincloths. That's demoralizing to be sure. The rogue charlatan archetype can make this happen town by town, city by city. Combat and magic is not the only way.
Now I off to threads where a more mutually beneficial interaction will take place.
I'm kind of curious as to how we became so absolutely fixated on this 'illegal racial combination'... it's like despite people providing suggestions that may explain how this monk could have these unique abilities stacked we just immediately retort with "nope, sry, can't move while flurrying and gm is cheating with racials lol".
To be honest, until I had become invested in reading the forums, the concept of your DM 'cheating' wasn't even something that I even considered possible.
Last I checked, the DM is writing a world, story, and all of the NPC's in it. Every D&D book that I have ever read advocates creativity and gives both DM and player alike encouragement to branch out from the norm and create their own concepts and ideas.
It could be any number of possibilities that people have mentioned. Different class combos, buff spells that some of the posters may have not looked into, reskinned monsters or maybe even just the DM describing his methods of attack differently.
In the games that I play, we go big or go home! Just because a person has two attacks per round doesn't mean that they stand in one place and swing twice every 6 seconds. It doesn't affect mechanics, but when the battle plays out and is described there is swordplay, parried attacks, martials arts and the like thrown into the mix to make the story -feel- epic instead of like a Final Fantasy RPG where people take turns hitting each other.
Also, there seems to be a lot of misleading information here...
He has "undispellable" spell resistance, and the players were apparently incapable of hitting him with spells... but then he goes on in the same post to say that they have debuffed the monk at several points and the Mook wizard dispels it?
So how are we sure that his spell resistance is incapable of being dispelled? Did we fail the dispel check and just assume?
I see a lot of pointed fingers.
Lots of conspiracy theories.
And it all comes back to people ranting and raving about how the DM 'cheated', how these combinations are impossible (despite people posting potential abilities and combinations that make these theories actually possible).
I get that there are 'those' kind of DM's who may get a little heady with power and show off a well-built or overpowered NPC and make the players feel dumbed down... but I find in a lot of those cases that those situations involve the DMPC instead of the big bad.
So can we maybe take a minute to stop throwing out the millions of ways that we perceive this guy to be outlandishly breaking the rules and condemn the whole concept of this monk to hell and maybe take a bit of time to figure out -how- he is doing what he's doing so that we can break down his strengths and help the OP like he originally asked?
Saying "your DM cheated, there's nothing you can do because it's overpowered and illegal" really doesn't give him any insight to his problem unless the solution that he was looking for involved making a scene and walking out of his game...
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@Loros
Players have a different expectation of 'fair' now. While the older editions may have let the GM run whatever they wanted however they would with no thought to balance or other concerns, by about 3rd Ed that was no longer the expectation. 3rd Ed was the point where you were given a lot of freedom as a GM, but also an expectation of fair play. And so this character that's clearly breaking PC rules (which I think would be the best way to phrase it) rubs people the wrong way. At least those of which think everyone should be more or less on even footing.
You're right, telling them that the GM is cheating isn't going to beat the monk, but my problem here is that we don't have a clear level to build at. What we're looking for at this point is SR/Saving Throw: NO spells, since we need to reliably be able to incapacitate the Monk. They're also highly gear/buff dependent, which is important to note.
The first thing you NEED to do is take out the buffer, without that and you're simply pushing a rock up a hill. The buffer is more important than the monk. The Monk only has one way to deal damage, and that's through melee, another exploitable weakness. They have to close distance with you, which gives you a lot more freedom in how you deal with them. For this I'd build a Barbarian who can basically do everything needed to make sure this Monk pays for stepping into melee range.
Consider a CAGM build, I. Rager obv with the Stalwart and Improved line of feats. Assuming level 12 (min for CAGM), you'll be sporting DR 6/- from IR and a stacking DR 8/- from your Improved Stalwart feats, removing 14 damage per hit (Go fire resist too to have some defense against that as well). Packing Spell Sunder, you could do the debuffs yourself, and with 18+ Dex (not impossible at this level), getting 4 swings on your opponent as they come at you is quite a nice benefit.
"With an overpowered Paladin!!"
@Loros
Players have a different expectation of 'fair' now. While the older editions may have let the GM run whatever they wanted however they would with no thought to balance or other concerns, by about 3rd Ed that was no longer the expectation. 3rd Ed was the point where you were given a lot of freedom as a GM, but also an expectation of fair play. And so this character that's clearly breaking PC rules (which I think would be the best way to phrase it) rubs people the wrong way. At least those of which think everyone should be more or less on even footing.
You're right, telling them that the GM is cheating isn't going to beat the monk, but my problem here is that we don't have a clear level to build at. What we're looking for at this point is SR/Saving Throw: NO spells, since we need to reliably be able to incapacitate the Monk. They're also highly gear/buff dependent, which is important to note.
The first thing you NEED to do is take out the buffer, without that and you're simply pushing a rock up a hill. The buffer is more important than the monk. The Monk only has one way to deal damage, and that's through melee, another exploitable weakness. They have to close distance with you, which gives you a lot more freedom in how you deal with them. For this I'd build a Barbarian who can basically do everything needed to make sure this Monk pays for stepping into melee range.
Consider a CAGM build, I. Rager obv with the Stalwart and Improved line of feats. Assuming level 12 (min for CAGM), you'll be sporting DR 6/- from IR and a stacking DR 8/- from your Improved Stalwart feats, removing 14 damage per hit (Go fire resist too to have some defense against that as well). Packing Spell Sunder, you could do the debuffs yourself, and with 18+ Dex (not impossible at this level), getting 4 swings on your opponent as they come at you is quite a nice benefit.
One problem here -- DR from different sources does not stack. It overlaps. :-P
"If a creature has damage...
The Stalwart line of feats (Stalward and Improved Stalwart) specifically stacks with DR from class features and uses Barbarian's DR as an example.
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One problem here -- DR from different sources does not stack. It overlaps. :-P
"If a creature has damage...
Yeah, as stated above, Stalwart is kind of a bro about stacking.
But can you give us any info on party level and such to help you make a Monk killing god? It'd help to have some parameters or else it's hard to make a basis to work around this.
Don't you need to go total defense for that feat to work, though? Sort of means the CAGM barb can't attack with Stalwart running :-P
Party APL is 9. We place the monk at about level 13 or 14. He's just a cheesed out, min-maxed monk. He at least has elemental fist and Qinggong powers. In the past when we've been close to defeating him, the DM has him assume gaseous form and then back off so his persisted healing spell will rejuvenate him.
While using the total defense action, fighting defensively action, or Combat Expertise, you can forgo the dodge bonus to AC you would normally gain to instead gain an equivalent amount of DR, to a maximum of DR 5/—, until the start of your next turn. This damage reduction stacks with DR you gain from class features, such as the barbarian's, but not with DR from any other source. If you are denied your Dexterity bonus to AC, you are also denied this DR.
Improved Stalwart doubles the DR up to DR 10/-; since it works with simply fighting defensively, the CAGM can still use it.
He might need to take a 2-level dip into MoMS so he can take Crane Style and Riposte to reduce the penalty.
Might be interesting to see a Halfing CAGM/MoMS Barbarian using Power Attack, Reckless Abandon and Risky Striker or something like that.
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Don't you need to go total defense for that feat to work, though? Sort of means the CAGM barb can't attack with Stalwart running :-P
Party APL is 9. We place the monk at about level 13 or 14. He's just a cheesed out, min-maxed monk. He at least has elemental fist and Qinggong powers. In the past when we've been close to defeating him, the DM has him assume gaseous form and then back off so his persisted healing spell will rejuvenate him.
Nope, Stalwart works with either fighting defensively (boo) or Combat Expertise (yay) Sadly it's not quite at the point where you can to CAGM. The build I was insisting on would have been
Half-Orc Invulnerable Rager 12
1-Endurance (racial), Diehard
2- Superstitious
3-Combat Expertise (or Power Attack)
4-Witch Hunter
5-Stalwart (or Combat Expertise if not already selected)
6-Spell Sunder
7-Power Attack (or Combat Expertise/Stalwart if not already selected)
8-Strength Surge
9-Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
10-Eater of Magic
11-Improved Stalwart
12-Come and Get me
CAGM was a bit part of what made this good, since it'd be giving you an attack against him whenever he decided to Flurry you, and betaking off 14 damage per swing.
Okay, so he can stop arrows, but he can't stop a bomb.
Grenadier with Dispell bombs might work here, along with a Hybridization Funnel. You're going to need to Hybrid a Ghast Retch Flask with a Tangleburn Bag. Before throwing it at the poor bastard, down your True Strike extract to MAKE sure you hit. At this point he's entangled and sickened, the second for 3 rounds. That's two strong debuffs, even if he does make the saves (TB/F Bag has no save for Entangled, and Ghast Retch Flask auto sickens on a direct hit for at least 3 rounds)
Consider tag teaming them with a Frostbite Enforcer Magus to leave the opponent Fatigued (can't use that Barb Rage), shaken, sickened, and entangled all in one go and see how fierce they are then.
Don't you need to go total defense for that feat to work, though? Sort of means the CAGM barb can't attack with Stalwart running :-P
Party APL is 9. We place the monk at about level 13 or 14. He's just a cheesed out, min-maxed monk. He at least has elemental fist and Qinggong powers. In the past when we've been close to defeating him, the DM has him assume gaseous form and then back off so his persisted healing spell will rejuvenate him.
Not sure if you know, but Gaseous Form actually makes him extremely vulnerable.
The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains DR 10/magic and becomes immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits. It can't attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.
A gaseous creature can't run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet and automatically succeeds on all Fly skill checks. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid. It also can't manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.
So he loses any armor he's got (including natural), can't attack or cast spells and he's restricted to moving up to 20 ft. a round (double move). His DR is essentially worthless since every one should have at least a +1 weapon at this point.
Turning gaseous makes him a sitting duck.
I skimmed Dark Immortal's posts because seriously there was no reason for all that text on this particular subject.
The gist of it as far as I can tell, is you feel vindicated somehow that a Monk is an issue for the party.
Why?
Monks and defensive builds have always gone together like peanut butter and jelly. Monks are actually fairly decent in PvP (or in this case Bad guy vs Party) due to that fact, since Defensive builds on the whole make you the winner automatically (eventually) as long as you have enough HP to tank the few hits your opponent crits on. They just don't do very well in actually play in a PCs hands since defensive builds are pretty much worthless to the party.
Monk NPCs are badass, mostly because they can be built for a specific purpose without having to worry about if it would survive the game up to that point, or how it would fare against many monsters.
It can be specifically built to be a PC killer, since PCs have both more options and more limitations than monsters. You build to mitigate their strengths and their inherent weaknesses become apparent.
You can get the same effect from a lot of things, really. If the GM wants to build a guy, perfectly legally, that can kill the PCs...he can do it, no problem.
The apparently illegal ability it has just exacerbate the issue.
gunslinger + improved invisibility -> attack vs AC 10+Deflection (maximum 15 AC), win initiative and kill him in one round
and since you want to build entirely to crush this one npc:
Dwarven Bane Weapon Enchant
gunslinger + improved invisibility -> attack vs AC 10+Deflection (maximum 15 AC), win initiative and kill him in one round
and since you want to build entirely to crush this one npc:
Dwarven Bane Weapon Enchant
Yeah, that would do it. Especially if he goes all out on the gunslinger to make him as OP as possible.
[Edit] I imagine a TWF, Rapid Shot, Fast Bombs Alchemist could probably do something similar.